Microbiome - Butyrate - Inflammation

[Wishful]

I am happy to share what natural antibiotics you can try. This would be the most logical solution to me.

I think it would be more logical to provide support for good bacteria. If you had a field with a weed problem, spraying kill-everything herbicide would get rid of the weeds, but also everything else, leaving bare soil for opportunistic weeds. Planting a cover crop that crowds out weeds might be more effective at getting the field back into healthy function.

If you knew which specific strain was a problem, and had an antibiotic that targeted only that strain, then that would be a better choice.

The gut and microbiome have a complex interaction. It seems that the gut cells and immune cells differentiate between good and bad strains, and help the good ones, even helping them form biofilms for the benefit of the gut. As with antibiotics, a kill-everything biofilm buster isn't the best solution for that.

One tactic I don't recall reading about is abrupt changes in diet. The microbiome is supposed to respond fairly quickly to what's passing through, with some strains quickly growing, and others dying back. So, going meat-only for a few days, then high-pectin fruit-only, then whole grains, and so forth, might change the battlefields for the various strains, giving the good ones a chance to win some battles. If you know what the bad strain is, and what conditions it prefers, then you could tailor your diet to avoid what it likes.

Rather than simple tactics (ie. antibiotics), more varied tactics would likely be more effective. The more information you have about the enemy, the better your battle plans.

No nukes. Nukes are bad.

 

[Wishful]

So weirsky tho , if i still had some a etatw producing bacteria, why didnt those grow witg previotic foods.

The appendix is supposed to maintain a population of good bacteria. Maybe multiple factors are making it hard for those strains to repopulate the appropriate regions. Just adding some general-purpose prebiotic foods might not be enough. You might need to add specific foods in a specific order. Maybe one good strain needs another strain to be in place first. Then there's the gut cells and immune cells, which might change the status of a specific strain, identifying it as a harmful invader rather than a good neighbour.

Despite having my appendix, I somehow lost a critical fibre-eating strain for about a year, and one probiotic capsule fixed that. Then, after a more recent gut disturbance, I became intolerant of some foods again. Our guts just aren't as simple as a car engine, where you can simply swap out a bad part for a new one.

I recently read that the gut cells send signal to the t-cells to tell them which food molecules they should ignore. Back when my ME started, I suddenly developed a type IV reaction (t-cells) to most foods. 2.5 years later, a bout of food poisoning abruptly stopped that type IV reaction. So, did my ME change a signal critical for t-cell identification of molecules, and food poisoning switched it back again? This certainly doesn't seem to be a common event in people, but it obviously can occur. So, if you have a gut problem that seems highly unlikely, don't assume that means that it's impossible.

 

[vision blue]

@wisful good and interesting points. One odd thing is since this gi infection, i seem to be tolerating fior first time in megayears amine containing foods! At first i thought i just wasnt absorbing food- so not absorbing amines eitger- but have started to wonder if a different population of microbiota has chsnged my amine i tolerance. If so, that would be one silver lining to this rather big storm cloud.
I believe my appendix stores were wiped out, because for the six months preceding my G.I. infection, I actually had chronic loss - I think what happened was in my attempt to eat healthy which meant eating millet and sweet potatoes instead of white pasta all the time I think actually i damaged ny small intestine and other gut linings and that started all of us in motion but then the G.I. infection that was severe wiped out what was left including now depleted appendix stores

Its awesome one ptrobiotic dose actually fixed that. Hope you now return in your new bout of tolerating everything.

Probiotics now are risky for me because in current vilnerable state, i may be colonized with overgrowths from the supplemnt. Have been told (from, but not entirely from, chst got that i can try non colonizing strains of probiotic bacteria. There are two common ones- i forget off hand the name.

Found this article
https://www.nature.com/articles/mi201675
Havent finished it yet but many of the recommendations are obes chat got or me have come up with

@LINE i think its great you want to research this beast and if course thanks for helo you give otgerd . But if you want me to consider giving my data for one of your research studies, youll need to do it properly. Formal study invitation, documentation of IRB approval from your institution, formal written consenting procedures. Ny view here is that people in the members only forum need to feel free to share their results without fears its going to be scraped and used in research studies without their permission. Ive pulled the data i posted off the forum fir now. if you already downloaded it I am requesting you destroy it since you have not asked for my permission to use it in a study.

 

[vision blue]

@Violeta Looks like grapefruit extract that you mentioned to orevent the other thing also kills enterbacter cloacae complex , son guess now thats the reason i still need it! Seems to kill off everything- wonder what it does to good bacteria- Tho perhaps I don’t have any of those to worry about

 

[Violeta]

Therapeutic Effects of Berberine on Liver Fibrosis are associated With Lipid Metabolism and Intestinal Flora

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/pharmacology/articles/10.3389/fphar.2022.814871/full

The production of butyrate by intestinal anaerobic bacteria is dramatically increased by BBR, thereby amplifying butyrate-mediated alleviation of liver fibrosis

 

[Wishful]

The production of butyrate by intestinal anaerobic bacteria is dramatically increased by BBR,

I haven't read the citation for that claim, but I'm guessing it's not a proven dramatic effect. Pectin has a dramatically different ration of acetate/butyrate/propionate production compared to most other fibre. I'm guessing that berberine isn't the equivalent for boosting butyrate.

 

[LINE]

@Violeta I found this article about asparagine that might be helpful

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/ot...S&cvid=4b3f0f42591346d5be37e830f9990ac3&ei=14

Also https://aminoacidsguide.com/Asn.html

Asparagine is found strongly in asparagus.

 

[LINE]

@Violeta They mention activation of B cells in relation to asparagine in the above link. B cell activates the humoral immune response which would likely indicate bacterial or protozoa infection. Not sure if you were tested for any of these pathogens. That is what happened to me, infected with protozoa which set off the whole cascade.

 

[Violeta]

@LINE, thank you. I have only been tested for EBV, and it was so long ago that I forget the exact terms used to describe what they found. I think the results showed that I had had it in the past at some point. Protozoa, that's interesting.

There are so many things in the amino acid guide about asparagine that pertain to my situation.

People experiencing a deficiency of Asparagine may suffer from poor metabolism and show inability to manufacture and excrete urea, which is waste product of excess dietary protein. Such people thus may reveal symptoms like depression, confusion, and headaches. In addition, among the main benefits of Asparagine you can find the facts that it may help in metabolizing ammonia in the human body and enable proper functioning of the liver, as well as it enables a robust system resistant to fatigue.

So I started thinking about it because of this:
"Asparagine is known for its key role in the biosynthesis of glycoproteins."

Did see that it has something to do with the urea cycle, which I do have.

Then the fact that it helps in metabolizing ammonia may indicate I am deficient in it.

Asparagus makes my urine smell bad, and I always thought that indicated that I should avoid it, but now I am thinking that maybe it was doing something helpful.

How about this!
" It can be produced in the liver and is recognized worldwide for its ability to help increase the resistance to fatigue, thus improving athletic stamina."

I am interested in finding out why levels of asparagine in people with ME/CFS are lower than normal.
In the meantime, I will try to increase one of those food sources.

Thank you so much for the links!

 

[LINE]

Off the top of my head, I would suspect that a bacterial invasion happened.

Amino acids are very connected to each other, and they obviously interact with metabolic processes. If the body is calling for immune activation because of an antigen (say bacterial or toxin) then it begins to call for certain nutrients (say amino acids) to assist in the request. If the required nutrients are not available, then the body begins to modify the metabolic patterns. Sort of like baking a cake and you don't have enough eggs, then a modification happens. Either the cake is made smaller to compensate for the lack of eggs or you make the cake as normal then as a result, the cake doesn't taste the same.

Amino acids, vitamin co-factors, minerals and essential fatty acids tend to work with one another. They are dependent on each other to perform metabolic tasks.

Pushing hard on one specific nutrient can create imbalances with other nutrients. Example: high doses of calcium can push down available magnesium, or high zinc can reduce copper. Same holds true with amino acids.

I studied the urea cycle and will do some more research for you. Off the top of my head, Ornithine (amino acid) and manganese play roles. I also read the bicarbonate system is involved. I use some sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) every now and then (1x per week). Since it is alkalizing, it reduces some toxic loads for me.

 

[Violeta]

I am going to take grapefruit seed extract for a week or two again, in case of bacterial or fungal infection.

I can't think of any nutrient that I overdo. But I'll keep that in mind, maybe I'm overlooking something.

Yes, some people take ornithine to clear out ammonia. I'll check my diet to see if I get any manganese. One thing that helps me with a number of things is alka seltzer. Lemon juice with baking soda or apple cider vinegar with baking soda helps, too. I have a hard time making myself drink just plain baking soda, but I'll try it.

Thanks again, I appreciate the input.

 

[Violeta]

This thread about asparagine by @mariovitali on twitter is very interesting.

https://x.com/lifeanalytics/status/1857037563774574951

 

[Violeta]

The ammonia part of this problem is what I think causes me the most problems.

Just found this. I'm sure zinc is just one of the many things that can help, but the low purine diet I am on really reduced the amount of zinc in my diet. It's like a catch-22.

I realize I have to work on this by focusing on the liver, too.

I see B6 is important, too.
This brings me back to that problem where one excretes zinc and B6, and that can be due to some pathogen.

Zinc supplementation reduces blood ammonia and increases liver ornithine transcarbamylase activity in experimental cirrhosis

Zinc supplementation reduces blood ammonia and increases liver ornithine​

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/150...s liver ornithine transcarbamylase,Hepatology.

 

[LINE]

@Violeta I am researching more on the asparagine - briefly looking for supplements, the only thing I see at the moment is asparagus.

I think the ammonia can also be considered as incomplete amino acid handling. A supplement that is a general free form amino could be helpful, instead of taking individual aminos.

A general vitamin/mineral supplement (not sure if you are taking) would provide the substrates for amino acid conversion. For instance, some of the methylating B vitamins (B6, Folic Acid, B12) help in that conversion.

 

[LINE]

@Violeta

Concerning a bacterial invasion, here are some ideas you may want to consider:

1/ Ferments - IMO, these are typically better than probiotics (although I would say that Akkermansia was helpful) - I use Cleveland Kraut Red cabbage with beets, not sure this is available where you live. This is unpasteurized which is an important distinction since it contains live cultures. Hex Ferments also sells unpasteurized.

These contain specific probiotics not found in typical probiotics. There is a strain called pediococcus in the above products that has strong antimicrobial properties, this is supported in PubMed research articles. This probiotic strain has the ability to knock out some resistant strains.

Kefir (I buy Lifeway) is another ferment that has unique properties due to its specific strains. L. Reuteri (available in capsule form) might be a good candidate as well.

2/ Neem - highly prized in Ayurvedic medicine, known for its antimicrobial properties, also supports gastrointestinal health.

3/ Caprylic acid - derived from coconut oil, it has a wide spectrum of antimicrobial activities - effective against a number of pathogenic classes (bacteria, viral etc.)

4/ I have other herbals that might be helpful which I can list if you desire. Keep in mind that between 1-2 weeks, these products should be noticeable. In other words, if I don't see improvement within that time, I suspect that the products were not effective, and I move on. Something else that might be helpful is that the microbiome can change its composition within a short period of time. I have read articles in research that the composition can change within 24-48 hours. This is helpful not to be stuck in the deadzone meaning that I continue to waste time using the same product or procedure. Though, there are products I use that are helpful, such as basic nutrients (choline, pantothenic acid, vitamin C etc.) However, I think with chronic conditions in the gut, that 24-48 hours should be extended to 1-2 weeks.

5/ I will throw this in: Nin Jiom Pei Pa Koa is a traditional Chinese formula which has antimicrobial properties. It is a syrup that contains a number of herbal compounds. I bought it on Amazon for about $20 USD. *Do note that it contains licorice which can raise blood pressure since it is very similar to cortisol molecularly.

Licorice is used by the Chinese for a number of conditions, typically, they use it in acute conditions but not on a long-term basis (because of the cortisol-like properties, in fact, someone on PR posted a rise in blood pressure with continual use). It does impact the gastrointestinal - some use DGL which is licorice but without the cortisol-like properties. Many use this for its ability to help GI issues, I tried it a number of years back.

 

[Violeta]

@Violeta

Concerning a bacterial invasion, here are some ideas you may want to consider:

1/ Ferments - IMO, these are typically better than probiotics (although I would say that Akkermansia was helpful) - I use Cleveland Kraut Red cabbage with beets, not sure this is available where you live. This is unpasteurized which is an important distinction since it contains live cultures. Hex Ferments also sells unpasteurized.

These contain specific probiotics not found in typical probiotics. There is a strain called pediococcus in the above products that has strong antimicrobial properties, this is supported in PubMed research articles. This probiotic strain has the ability to knock out some resistant strains.

Kefir (I buy Lifeway) is another ferment that has unique properties due to its specific strains. L. Reuteri (available in capsule form) might be a good candidate as well.

2/ Neem - highly prized in Ayurvedic medicine, known for its antimicrobial properties, also supports gastrointestinal health.

3/ Caprylic acid - derived from coconut oil, it has a wide spectrum of antimicrobial activities - effective against a number of pathogenic classes (bacteria, viral etc.)

4/ I have other herbals that might be helpful which I can list if you desire. Keep in mind that between 1-2 weeks, these products should be noticeable. In other words, if I don't see improvement within that time, I suspect that the products were not effective, and I move on. Something else that might be helpful is that the microbiome can change its composition within a short period of time. I have read articles in research that the composition can change within 24-48 hours. This is helpful not to be stuck in the deadzone meaning that I continue to waste time using the same product or procedure. Though, there are products I use that are helpful, such as basic nutrients (choline, pantothenic acid, vitamin C etc.) However, I think with chronic conditions in the gut, that 24-48 hours should be extended to 1-2 weeks.

5/ I will throw this in: Nin Jiom Pei Pa Koa is a traditional Chinese formula which has antimicrobial properties. It is a syrup that contains a number of herbal compounds. I bought it on Amazon for about $20 USD. *Do note that it contains licorice which can raise blood pressure since it is very similar to cortisol molecularly.

Licorice is used by the Chinese for a number of conditions, typically, they use it in acute conditions but not on a long-term basis (because of the cortisol-like properties, in fact, someone on PR posted a rise in blood pressure with continual use). It does impact the gastrointestinal - some use DGL which is licorice but without the cortisol-like properties. Many use this for its ability to help GI issues, I tried it a number of years back.

Thanks, @LINE,

I was drinking kefir, and it was helping some things, but my eyes were always burning and then I realized it was from the histamine. I'll see if cultured vegetables have histamines. I can't handle the ones made with cabbage because cabbage is a goitrogen, and goitrogens bother my thyroid, but I think there is one made with just beets.

I have been having mct oil, which has caprylic acid, and only occassionally monolaurin. I also am taking grapefruit seed extract. I bought that tea that you mentioned, which has licorice root in it, do you think that would be enough to make a difference? I have low blood pressure, so no problem there.

Thanks, I lose focus because of having so many problems. This one is important, I'm going to get back on it.

 

[LINE]

@Violeta I think the major problem is with pathogenic invasion, particularly in the gut. The immune system controls most of the problems in that it throws off the metabolic patterns. The liver in particular becomes stagnant which encourages difficulties in toxin handling.

 

[Violeta]

@Violeta I think the major problem is with pathogenic invasion, particularly in the gut. The immune system controls most of the problems in that it throws off the metabolic patterns. The liver in particular becomes stagnant which encourages difficulties in toxin handling.

Yes, I think pathogens need to be dealt with in order to recover. I am finding andrographis very helpful. I am trying to take olive leaf extract, too, but it can make your blood pressure drop so I have to be careful with it.

How are you doing?

 

[Violeta]

This is very cool.

Andrographolide Attenuates Gut-Brain-Axis Associated Pathology in Gulf War Illness by Modulating Bacteriome-Virome Associated Inflammation and Microglia-Neuron Proinflammatory Crosstalk​

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34356139/

Results showed that Andrographolide treatment in mice (100 mg/kg) via oral gavage restored bacteriome alterations, significantly increased probiotic bacteria Akkermansia, Lachnospiraceae, and Bifidobacterium, the genera that are known to aid in preserving gut and immune health.

Andrographolide treatment significantly restored tight junction proteins that correlated well with decreased intestinal proinflammatory mediators IL-1β and IL-6 release.

Andrographolide treatment could restore Claudin-5 levels, crucial for maintaining the BBB integrity. Notably, AG could decrease microglial activation and increase neurotrophic factor BDNF, the key to neurogenesis.

 

[LINE]

Yes, I think pathogens need to be dealt with in order to recover. I am finding andrographis very helpful. I am trying to take olive leaf extract, too, but it can make your blood pressure drop so I have to be careful with it.

How are you doing?

Andrographis is an excellent choice, I took it for a while based on its immune enhancing properties and its gastro supporting. I still cycle it from time to time.

I went back to pathogen busting again - I have done so many experiments, in which the last 3 days, I am blasting with several natural antibiotics that I have used previously, just doing a more concentrated attack.

I do find that liver support with milk thistle combinations (I use Solaray Liver) helps and sometimes I take some artichoke for that as well. As a side note, the Solaray product does contain some artichoke. The liver/gallbladder axis does support digestion, when the liver detoxes, some discomfort can arise in which case chlorella can help in that it can pick up some of the toxins thereby reducing some discomfort.

I did find a new player in the field which is fermented Panax ginseng (red). ILHWA is what I bought, a 30 day supply was $23 USD. This decision was based on some published articles, I will note that they specifically mentioned fermented as being more valuable, this is why I bought the ILHWA brand.

I am not sure if this article was the one I read but it does show ginseng ability to impact the gut.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11064651/

Typically, Chinese Medicine reserves ginseng to impact problems, in other words, they do not necessarily give it for all conditions since it can be a formidable treatment. I have not noticed any adverse effects by taking 1 per day, in fact I feel more centered with it.

Some of the things I tried previously (butyrate etc.) seemed to lose some of their good effects, hence why I went back to pathogen attacks.