Microbiome - Butyrate - Inflammation

[Violeta]

@LINE, did you take an antibiotic for the gastro issue?

I don't know if this would apply, but it is interesting.

LPS-induced inhibition of salivation appears to be caused by increased PGE production. Diminished salivary secretion produces poor oral health; thus the use of COX-2 inhibitors to counteract the effects of inhibited salivation should be considered.

The COX-2 inhibitors would just be a band aid, but the LPS-induced inhibition of salivation is interesting.

 

[Violeta]

Combined effect of vitamin C and vitamin D3 on intestinal epithelial barrier by regulating Notch signaling pathway​

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8105975/

Thus, our results demonstrate that an appropriate amount of vitamin C combined with vitamin D3 can regulate the expression of claudin-2 by regulating Notch-1, relieve destruction of the intestinal mucosal barrier, and promote the repair of damage to the cell mucosal barrier.

 

[Violeta]

Fucoidan for tight junctions is something worth considering.

Fucoidan, a bioactive substance extracted from brown algae, can affect epithelial cells in a number of ways, including:

• Intestinal epithelial cells
  Fucoidan can improve the barrier function of intestinal epithelial cells. This is done by increasing the trans-epithelial resistance (TER) of polarized Caco-2 cell monolayers.

Fucoidan is a sulfated polysaccharide found in brown seaweeds that can interact with immune cells to produce mucin and enhance the immune response:

• Immune response
  Fucoidan can interact with Toll-like receptors on immune cells to produce mucin and improve the immune response. It can also promote the activation of immune effector cells and regulate the intestinal immune barrier.

 

[LINE]

Fucoidan for tight junctions is something worth considering.

Fucoidan, a bioactive substance extracted from brown algae, can affect epithelial cells in a number of ways, including:

• Intestinal epithelial cells
  Fucoidan can improve the barrier function of intestinal epithelial cells. This is done by increasing the trans-epithelial resistance (TER) of polarized Caco-2 cell monolayers.

Fucoidan is a sulfated polysaccharide found in brown seaweeds that can interact with immune cells to produce mucin and enhance the immune response:

• Immune response
  Fucoidan can interact with Toll-like receptors on immune cells to produce mucin and improve the immune response. It can also promote the activation of immune effector cells and regulate the intestinal immune barrier.

Fucoidan is an excellent choice - good for the tight junction proteins - very good detoxifying agent, will pull toxins out, toxins attack the tight junction proteins, so they (toxins) are not good. If I remember correctly, the Russians used brown algae (fucoidan) following the Chernobyl incident. It was reported that it able to detoxify radiation. It has also been mentioned in journal articles in the role of cancer. It is not expensive.

I get good to very good results with a similar product which is Amazing Grass Supergreens. It has chlorella with spirulina then they add moringa and kale. Perhaps the action is similar due to the spirulina and chlorella. I did brown algae for a bit, but likely did not take long enough.

*brown algae is rich in alginates - alginates act like a sponge to draw toxins out.

 

[Violeta]

Fucoidan is an excellent choice - good for the tight junction proteins - very good detoxifying agent, will pull toxins out, toxins attack the tight junction proteins, so they (toxins) are not good. If I remember correctly, the Russians used brown algae (fucoidan) following the Chernobyl incident. It was reported that it able to detoxify radiation. It has also been mentioned in journal articles in the role of cancer. It is not expensive.

I get good to very good results with a similar product which is Amazing Grass Supergreens. It has chlorella with spirulina then they add moringa and kale. Perhaps the action is similar due to the spirulina and chlorella. I did brown algae for a bit, but likely did not take long enough.

*brown algae is rich in alginates - alginates act like a sponge to draw toxins out.

Yes, and I've used it in the past and have had some sitting in my cabinet for a two years. I had put it aside and moved on to something else. I do that very frequently. But I got it back out again and started taking it after realizing this new benefit it provides. Yes, I think the spriulina and chlorella have a similar action of detoxification and providing of important nutrients.

You are correct, it was used by Russian following the Chernobyl incident. I have the product Modifilan, which is made by a man from Russia and was actually used for that purpose.

It's also a good source of iodine. Lots of good reasons to take it. I just ordered more.

Thank you for this thread and taking the time for updates and responses. It's been a big help to me.

 

[LINE]

Thank you for this thread and taking the time for updates and responses. It's been a big help to me.

You are welcome - nice to know that someone is reading

Something worth reading is Rehmannia - this is one of the prized Chinese herbs, I think it is a flower. I never heard of it despite trying and reading a number of Chinese formulas. I bought Planetary Formulas Rehmannia Endurance, it was inexpensive. It supports a number of processes in the body and particular the gut, I think it targets the mucous membrane which is showing up as a vital part of the immune response.

I gave a sample to a co-worker and he has reported similar results. No significant problems to report so far.

That formula is based on a 1,000-year-old Chinese formula. So far, the formula has smoothed energy where it seemed to stop the complete fatigue (exhaustion) and provided a smoother energy curve (more stabilized). I have read a number of journal articles of rehmannia effects in the gastrointestinal tract and the formula contains plantain which is another studied herb for gut health.

Whether it works for everyone is questionable, but for $10, it was an easy choice. *

====== Article on rehmannia and gastro: the article discusses the herb in relation to colitis but the bigger issue is the ability for it to reshape the microbiota and butyrate production.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36347632/

Results: The results showed that rehmannia attenuates lipopolysaccharide-induced overexpression of inflammatory factors, improves tight junction proteins to protects the tightness of the intestinal epithelium; , inhibits the expression of inflammatory factors through the NF-kB (nuclear factor-kappa B pathway, and improved the of intestinal tissues inflammation.

It can maintain the species diversity of intestinal microbes, increase the content of short-chain fatty acids and then restore the imbalance of intestinal microecology.

*that formula contains some other herbs which may or may not be beneficial. Perhaps just rehmannia by itself? As mentioned, the formula also contains plantain which is another studied herb for gastro issues.

 

[LINE]

My population of butyrate producing bscteria was decimated by a bad gi infection in may.
Eating lots of foods with inulin has done nothing

Before this had high leveks of the FP bacteria. Have not measured now but probablyvwiped out

Interesting on klebesla pnomenae or howver its spelled. When i had an abcess cultures last year, that grew.

The usual commercially available probiotics have the wrong type of bacteria for me i think. Already have plenty of acetate apparently and sll those lactobaccilus and bifido strains just lead to that. Its my butyrate (and valprouc acid) that have been decimated. I have the befire and after number

I am not sure if you have tried unpasteurized sauerkraut of kimchi. These have different probiotics than most ferments, one of those is pediococcus which has been studied in regard to inhibiting Klebsiella and other difficult infections. I read many journal articles that this probiotic to superhero status

Note that it has to be unpasteurized since pasteurization will likely kill the beneficial bacteria.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0734975017300228

 

[LINE]

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10753-024-02135-x

A very good article linking the tight junction proteins (butyrate, SCFA) with the Kynurenine Pathway, endotoxins, gut/brain axis (neurological symptoms), microbiota.

Bottom line, Ron Davis Ph.D. wrote several papers on disruptions of the Kynurenine Pathway being an issue for CFS/M.E. people. This pathway is quite important. The KP is interlinked with the tight junction proteins which butyrate is a player.

The article discusses endotoxins which can come from LPS bacteria as being a problem as they disrupt the tight junction proteins which causes strong inflammatory processes. Inflammatory processes disrupt cell function.

I have spent a good amount of time reading microbiota studies and it is clear that patterns of different bacteria are generally unique to each individual. Shifts in the microbiota can come from many sources such as environmental toxins, past antibiotic use, dietary, endocrine, mental/emotional stress and more.

Those shifts can allow unwanted organisms into the gut and when that happens, a definite change body wide and the neurological is impacted.

The microbiota is sort of like a party. Letting in unwelcome and disruptive party=goers can disrupt the colony of the good people, then chaos ensues. If you have bodyguards that filter the bad people out, then there is not a problem but if the doors are wide open... Good microbiota is like the bodyguards, they protect the party from the bad microbes. But to get them to be strong then other factors should be in place.

Everything is the gut is interdependent, meaning there are several layers of the gut experience that must work together, it is only as strong as the weakest link.

 

[vision blue]

@LINE I had tried kinchi and symptoms got wiorse. This is in contrast to when i used it with antibiotic years back and did fine with it. The spice now was also hard to tolerate. Possible one has to get worse before getting better and I may have given up too soon but it didn’t happen last time and I’m just so reluctant to keep up anything that clearly makes me worse

Years back I tried unpasteurized sauerkraut and the tiniest tiniest taste of just the liquid sent me to the bathroom for three days I never repeated that

Your info on what lack of butyrate does it’s not surprising but disturbing nonetheless. My K…levels have akways been excellent - Not in the slightest bit elevated despite all sorts of other things going on in deranged pathways so definitely disturbing to find out that’s probably know another thing that will go because of what has happened

On Monday I sent in a new comprehensive stool analysis test so it will be interesting to say but just judging from symptoms it feels like I still do not have any butyrate producing bacteria

I don’t know if I can tolerate G or not because of dairy intolerance/allergy but since it’s one of the few food sources with butyrate I’m not sure if it might help at least as a temporary measure although I suspect it won’t get to where it’s needed

I still find the findings that different parts of the colon have different populations of bacteria and the different supplements can change the bacteria levels differently in different parts just really interesting makes me want to know what parts of the colon have bacteria that produce butyrate not that that would lead to a practical solution I don’t think

The infection also slowed down motility

 

[LINE]

@vision blue Other probiotics cause problems such as Kefir? It is possible that the liver/gallbladder axis may need some help - bile acts to control the microbial colony. With strong immunity, the liver/gallbladder is not as robust.

There are a number of natural antibiotics that could help, let me know if you want any suggestions.

 

[Wishful]

makes me want to know what parts of the colon have bacteria that produce butyrate

Swallow a questionnaire for them to fill out as it passes along. "Please indicate your location."

 

[vision blue]

Swallow a questionnaire for them to fill out as it passes along. "Please indicate your location."

Last time I tried that, I found they use a VPN so their true location, alas, was masked. Every last one of them signaled that they originated from the identical location- somewhere in silicon valley if Im remembering correctly.

 

[LINE]

@Wishful = I will do a PubMed search on this

 

[LINE]

@vision blue

I found this for you:

Ileocecal and terminal ileum
Faecalibacterium prausnitzii (F. prausnitzii) is an anaerobic bacterium that mainly exists in the ileocecal and terminal ileum1. It is an abundant microbiome species in the human intestine, representing almost 8% of the total colonic microbiota and playing a key role in intestinal health2. F. prausnitzii is also a butyrate producer in the intestine3.

//////////

Mucus layer of the intestine
Akkermansia resides in the mucus layer of the intestine12345. It is a common microorganism in the human gut microbiome and is known for breaking down mucin, a type of sugary protein12345.

/////////
Human colon
Roseburia is a genus of Gram-positive, slightly curved, rod-shaped bacteria that inhabit the human colon123. They are commensal in the human gut and produce short-chain fatty acids, particularly butyrate, which has anti-inflammatory properties and helps maintain immunity45.

 

[vision blue]

@LINE Whats cool is it a tually gives the location! Thsnks!

I just last night got the latest results on how my butyrate is now- 6 months later

Ita awful!! Am enclosing it here.
(And font be fooled by the normal seeming percents - that just means now theyre ALL low! Its gotten worse than right after infection

And for first tine i have sonething in the dys iotic column. Overvrowth there coujd be oplortunistic- ot i coukd have apparentky picked it up when i was ovetnight in hospital 3 months ago

Want to type more but sm in a flare of so ething or other

I see no solution to the decimated microbiome

Line (and shouldn't your name be circle?) - theres stuff want to say in reply to your earlier posts and questions but in beat abd muscles snd tendos hurt. Thanks for yoyr (and others) help on this.

I guess i should tag @Violeta abd @Strawberry @Wishful

 

[LINE]

@vision blue Thanks for posting the report, that is very helpful, it helps in our studies! Can you post the remaining pages, I would like to see some other markers.

The most likely answer is that the bad bugs are creating a hostile environment (immune reactions) which is causing the problems.

I am happy to share what natural antibiotics you can try. This would be the most logical solution to me.

 

[Violeta]

@LINE Whats cool is it a tually gives the location! Thsnks!

I just last night got the latest results on how my butyrate is now- 6 months later

Ita awful!! Am enclosing it here.
(And font be fooled by the normal seeming percents - that just means now theyre ALL low! Its gotten worse than right after infection

And for first tine i have sonething in the dys iotic column. Overvrowth there coujd be oplortunistic- ot i coukd have apparentky picked it up when i was ovetnight in hospital 3 months ago

Want to type more but sm in a flare of so ething or other

I see no solution to the decimated microbiome

Line (and shouldn't your name be circle?) - theres stuff want to say in reply to your earlier posts and questions but in beat abd muscles snd tendos hurt. Thanks for yoyr (and others) help on this.

I guess i should tag @Violeta abd @Strawberry @Wishful

Butyrate being the lowest, I will post this about it. It's produced through the acetyl-CoA pathway.

Pantothenic acid is a precursor to CoA:
Pantothenic acid is a building block for coenzyme A, which is necessary for the formation of acetyl-CoA.

And also, Growth on inulin and the resistant starches resulted in higher butyrate concentrations compared with results from mucin and pectin, whereas values for growth on proteins and the basal medium were the lowest.

This reminds me of Dr Gominak, who talks about how helpful pantothenic acid and vitamin d are for the microbiome.

Also, I am wondering if trying to support the mucin layer should be the first priority. That would mean trying to provide fucoidan and sialic acid. Can you eat eggs, they are the best source of sialic acid. Fucoidan is a constituent of seaweed. Then the bacteria can layer on top of the mucin. Akkermansia to help with mucin structure, and the Prausnitzii to produce the butyrate.

Gosh it takes a lot of time, focus, and money. I am feeling better with just the fucoidan, though.

I just read today that influenza can strip the mucin off the epithelial cells. I bet that's why some people never seem to recuperate.

Just some thoughts, I am looking forward to what others say; I am here for the learning.

 

[vision blue]

@Violeta i will read thru this carefully as i love your ideas - but an also stuck on the thought you cant grow what is no longer there!

(I eat eggs daily brw)

Why wouldnt the bad bacteria I i already now have (eg enterobacter) simply lie on a nice replenished mucin layer ?

(Note they only give absolute levels for butyrate and fortotal scfaa, so likely all the others are low too, perhaps just as muxh. But do know from conparing to the last ones that valproic acid and butyrate dropped first and now it appeare a etate and oropinioate have dropped too and thats why the percents are all back in balance (the percents were out of whack on the last test)
So basically if they measured absolute levels of the other 3, those would be very low toi. I wonder if any significabce to which dropped first- may just have to do with abundance of scfaa.
So acetate usually highest percent and took longer til it dropped. So weirsky tho , if i still had some a etatw producing bacteria, why didnt those grow witg previotic foods. Why did enterobscter take over instead - unless i really was exposed in hoslital when gut microbiota waa still vulnerable.

 

[Strawberry]

@LINE I had tried kinchi and symptoms got wiorse. This is in contrast to when i used it with antibiotic years back and did fine with it. The spice now was also hard to tolerate. Possible one has to get worse before getting better and I may have given up too soon but it didn’t happen last time and I’m just so reluctant to keep up anything that clearly makes me worse

the only difference between kimchi and sauerkraut is the added spices. If you can’t tolerate sauerkraut you can’t tolerate kimchi.

So much good info, I’ll have to read many times.

 

[LINE]

@Violeta Good information on Pantothenic acid - Coenzyme A is a big player in the mitochondria cycle. I have seen changes by using Pantothenic acid but I should not leave out the other nutrients. I use a baseline supplement that provides basic nutrients. Life Force by Source Naturals has been a stable player for me.

Choline is another one that will impact my gut, I use choline/inositol from NOW. Choline plays a role in methylation (liver) and the liver/gallbladder is a part of the microbiome. Again, I use full spectrum nutrients.

Good you bring up the mucin as it is directly involved in the mucous membrane, there seems to be a lot of activity in that region of the gut which IMO is overlooked.