Another good thing about the strips is that once they're placed on moist soft tissue they stick in place and do not move. So if someone wanted to place it on the gum area it would stay in place. The only problem I have with it is that the mint flavour kind of burns on initial contact.
methylcobalamin vs hydroxocobalamin
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Lotus97
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You're right that I don't know for sure, but I'm just going by what I've heard so far about other people's experience with methylcobalamin. You can let us know if they work for you. Part of the reason I'm skeptical is that I've heard that most brands of methylcobalamin aren't very effective. Maybe the one you have is a good brand, but people have tried several different brands already.
I'm not sure if it work better on the lip area or gum since when people take sublinguals it's in contact with both areas.
adreno
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And you know this because of your extensive experience with pharmaceutical delivery systems?
Actually, the faster they dissolve, the more effective they are.
http://www.ajol.info/index.php/tjpr/article/download/44525/28030
Solgar's mb12 dissolves very quickly (a matter of mins) and it gives me indigestion. Also I can feel the affect of mb12 when it enters my system. Source Natural mb12 lasts up to 1hr under my top lip and I can feel it's effects after 15 mins. It's very noticeable for me.
Could someone link me to some research on the topic of sublingual vs. oral absorption for B12? I appreciate that anecdotal evidence has its uses, but that's not what I'm talking about here. According to this study, oral and sublingual supplementation produce exactly the same rates of absorption.
Also I'm reading up about B12 on Wikipedia, and it's saying that too much potassium supplementation can block B12. Does anyone know more about that? Everyone on PR has been saying to take more potassium if you're on B12.
Also I'm reading up about B12 on Wikipedia, and it's saying that too much potassium supplementation can block B12. Does anyone know more about that? Everyone on PR has been saying to take more potassium if you're on B12.
Lotus97
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I'm just going by what I heard in these forums. I assumed that the people like Freddd who had a need for a high amount of methylcobalamin were able to tell the difference. It's true that in the 2009 study using an older version of Rich's protocol they used Perque's hydroxocobalamin which dissolves rather quickly yet people still had good results so maybe there is more to it than what I said previously. That said, the standard sublingual might not have the optimal design. As the article you referenced says "The performance of ODTs depends on the technology used during their manufacture." Maybe those strips are effective, but with standard sublinguals that might not be the case. Also, people have said that most brands of methylcobalamin are low potency so even if the delivery system is optimal that doesn't guarantee it will be effective. However, Hip did come up with a method of rapid absorption using standard B12 sublinguals
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/sublingual-massage-—-absorbing-b12-fast-efficiently-under-the-tongue.20973/
Lotus97
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Methylation can sometimes cause hypokalemia/low potassium. This is more common at higher doses. Not everyone needs to supplement with potassium, but you should familiarize yourself with the symptoms of low potassium and have some ready just in case. As far as blocking absorption of B12, is that referring specifically to absorption in the gut? The reason why I ask is because B12 is mostly absorbed sublingually.
According to the research I've read, B12 isn't absorbed sublingually at all, the molecule is too large. When people are taking it sublingually, it still ends up in the gut. With all due respect to the people on this forum and their experience, I'm going to take clinical trials over speculation based on a small amount of anecdotal data. Chewing the tablets, on the other hand, increased absorption in one trial, so I may as well do that. Taking B12 through alternative orifices in ways which were not intended by the manufacturers and have not been researched at all, and which are likely to cause discomfort at best and who knows what at worst, is not something I am intending to do. I mean, if you're that keen to stick B12 up your nose, why not get the nasal gels which I understand exist?
I've noticed that a lot of people on PR are taking potassium in tiny quantities which are unlikely to make any difference. Since the RDA is around 4000mg per day, taking 99mg at a time, even a few of them, is only a tiny fraction of that, and you'll get far more potassium through your food. So I find it odd that people are reporting (undiagnosed) potassium deficiencies, and then claiming that they could be treated through such small amounts of potassium. I'm taking about 1/2 tsp potassium chloride in my electrolyte drink.
I've noticed that a lot of people on PR are taking potassium in tiny quantities which are unlikely to make any difference. Since the RDA is around 4000mg per day, taking 99mg at a time, even a few of them, is only a tiny fraction of that, and you'll get far more potassium through your food. So I find it odd that people are reporting (undiagnosed) potassium deficiencies, and then claiming that they could be treated through such small amounts of potassium. I'm taking about 1/2 tsp potassium chloride in my electrolyte drink.
adreno
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Parroting other people's anecdotals is not going to get us anywhere. You seem to give an awful lot of advice based on others people's experiences and opinions, like which brand of B12 is best, how to maximize absorbtion etc. Maybe you should start your posts with "Freddd's opinion is..", or "Freddd recommends..". At least then we know the real source.
Hi;
It's true that there isn't a confirmation of better absorption of B12 in the studies I found, when comparing oral vs. sublingual. Their judgements were based on measurements of blood serum B12, homocysteine, etc.
I did find a study that supports the efficacy of sublingual administration of other substances, though. Apparently, the oral mucosa is more permeable, allowing easier diffusion.
http://www.ualberta.ca/~csps/JPPS1(1)/A.Shojaei/buccalreview.htm
"The buccal mucosa offers several advantages for controlled drug delivery for extended periods of time. The mucosa is well supplied with both vascular and lymphatic drainage and first-pass metabolism in the liver and pre-systemic elimination in the gastrointestinal tract are avoided. The area is well suited for a retentive device and appears to be acceptable to the patient. With the right dosage form design and formulation, the permeability and the local environment of the mucosa can be controlled and manipulated in order to accommodate drug permeation. Buccal drug delivery is a promising area for continued research with the aim of systemic delivery of orally inefficient drugs as well as a feasible and attractive alternative for non-invasive delivery of potent peptide and protein drug molecules. However, the need for safe and effective buccal permeation/absorption enhancers is a crucial component for a prospective future in the area of buccal drug delivery."
It's true that there isn't a confirmation of better absorption of B12 in the studies I found, when comparing oral vs. sublingual. Their judgements were based on measurements of blood serum B12, homocysteine, etc.
I did find a study that supports the efficacy of sublingual administration of other substances, though. Apparently, the oral mucosa is more permeable, allowing easier diffusion.
http://www.ualberta.ca/~csps/JPPS1(1)/A.Shojaei/buccalreview.htm
"The buccal mucosa offers several advantages for controlled drug delivery for extended periods of time. The mucosa is well supplied with both vascular and lymphatic drainage and first-pass metabolism in the liver and pre-systemic elimination in the gastrointestinal tract are avoided. The area is well suited for a retentive device and appears to be acceptable to the patient. With the right dosage form design and formulation, the permeability and the local environment of the mucosa can be controlled and manipulated in order to accommodate drug permeation. Buccal drug delivery is a promising area for continued research with the aim of systemic delivery of orally inefficient drugs as well as a feasible and attractive alternative for non-invasive delivery of potent peptide and protein drug molecules. However, the need for safe and effective buccal permeation/absorption enhancers is a crucial component for a prospective future in the area of buccal drug delivery."
The link that you provided in post #105 states that sublingual is effective. Am I reading this wrong?
According to the chart they provide, the sublingual supplements are the most effective after the 8 week trial.
adreno
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There was no significant difference between the groups. There is no way to know if the sublingually delivered B12 was absorped in the oral cavity, or washed down the GI tract.
Here's another study with the same result:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17109579
Ok, so there are no significant differences between PO and SL delivery. I have an appointment with my doc on Wednesday because I have b12 insufficiency and I'm demanding shots. I need reassurance that I am getting sufficient amounts before it's too late and I suffer neuro damage.
I just found out in the last 2 weeks that my B12 is now in the insufficiency range at 217. I was not supplementing with B12 or B Complex for several years before that so I don't know. I'm not waiting 3 months of supplementing to see if the sublinguals are effective.
So, "tests have shown" that there is no difference between sublingual and oral intake of B12.
Since there is a huge discrepancy in my experience , I must attest that the studies failed to address symptom relief.
I've only had homocysteine measured once, it was good normal. ( was only taking b-complex, but having low B12 symptoms)
I've had elevated serum B12 titers and still had low B12 symptoms, relieved by increasing dosage.
With taking various good brands of b-complex orally, and having the occasional sublingual for ~7 or more years, I still developed low B12 symptoms: OI, vertigo, hairloss, falling, paresthesias,neuropathy, urinary incontinence, cognitive dysfunction, elevated MCV, MCH, and so on.
Part of the reason I joined here was because I read of many people having these same hellatious symptoms. I can't bear to see this happen.
I'm sure there are many people who respond well to dietary, and oral B12, But many of us don't, and we are being misled by serum levels and other tests.
Some people respond better to injections than sublinguals, others need both. So far, I'm good with sublinguals.
I'm glad we have this forum to compare our results, especially when they differ from studies.
Since there is a huge discrepancy in my experience , I must attest that the studies failed to address symptom relief.
I've only had homocysteine measured once, it was good normal. ( was only taking b-complex, but having low B12 symptoms)
I've had elevated serum B12 titers and still had low B12 symptoms, relieved by increasing dosage.
With taking various good brands of b-complex orally, and having the occasional sublingual for ~7 or more years, I still developed low B12 symptoms: OI, vertigo, hairloss, falling, paresthesias,neuropathy, urinary incontinence, cognitive dysfunction, elevated MCV, MCH, and so on.
Part of the reason I joined here was because I read of many people having these same hellatious symptoms. I can't bear to see this happen.
I'm sure there are many people who respond well to dietary, and oral B12, But many of us don't, and we are being misled by serum levels and other tests.
Some people respond better to injections than sublinguals, others need both. So far, I'm good with sublinguals.
I'm glad we have this forum to compare our results, especially when they differ from studies.
How much B12 had you been taking? I was taking it for years too, but it was a small amount and not a terribly good form (basic multivitamin), which I'm guessing is why my levels were borderline. As for blood tests, it turns out that the NHS reference ranges are relatively low, and what is considered normal in the UK would be considered deficient in Japan, for instance.
I just looked over some of the multi's and b complexes I was taking, and they averaged 250 mcg. per dosage. Enough for most, but not for those with absorption/ conversion/ transport difficulties.
For some years, off and on, I did take a sublingual b complex with 800 mcg. of B12, but I usually swallowed it after a short time...didn't think it would make a difference.
~5yrs. ago, I started 5-10 mgs. daily of jarrow methylcobalamin. It was good back then,(not now), I responded well, after 6mnths. ( read alot about it) When I felt better, I reduced the dosage to 5mg, then down to 2500 mcg, then I would skip days, thinking I would be fine. ( paresthesias, brain fog, etc. returned) Brain fog was first, so I didn't notice the other symptoms as much, until I began to get strong electrical type shocks from nerves.
I've read that in Japan, the lowest serum B12 level is ~500. I've read of many people, including children, having severe symptoms even with elevated B12 levels,>1200. For instance, Dr. Neubrander, who treats kids with ASD,using subcutaneous injections of methylcobalamin, finds most of them have elevated B12.
One possible reason for this is that some of us have a transport problem. ( there are many transport proteins for B12) So, we end up having to rely on Passive Diffusion, or Passive Transport for absorption. We flood our bodies with it and absorb about 1-2 % of intake.
Now, I'm taking a minimum of 5mg. daily of Enzymatic Therapy brand methylcobalamin. I must admit it works best in my case, but I feel somewhat cornered because I haven't had such good results from other brands.
There are many folks here who respond well to hydroxocobalamin as well as methylcobalamin, so, it may take some trial and error, possibly genetics testing, etc.
I wish it could be easier.
P.S. Many experts believe that one should try to keep serum B12 levels above 1000, even higher, once supplementation begins. ( mine are >3000 pg/ml ) If you can find some symptoms, and observe them, it may help.
For some years, off and on, I did take a sublingual b complex with 800 mcg. of B12, but I usually swallowed it after a short time...didn't think it would make a difference.
~5yrs. ago, I started 5-10 mgs. daily of jarrow methylcobalamin. It was good back then,(not now), I responded well, after 6mnths. ( read alot about it) When I felt better, I reduced the dosage to 5mg, then down to 2500 mcg, then I would skip days, thinking I would be fine. ( paresthesias, brain fog, etc. returned) Brain fog was first, so I didn't notice the other symptoms as much, until I began to get strong electrical type shocks from nerves.
I've read that in Japan, the lowest serum B12 level is ~500. I've read of many people, including children, having severe symptoms even with elevated B12 levels,>1200. For instance, Dr. Neubrander, who treats kids with ASD,using subcutaneous injections of methylcobalamin, finds most of them have elevated B12.
One possible reason for this is that some of us have a transport problem. ( there are many transport proteins for B12) So, we end up having to rely on Passive Diffusion, or Passive Transport for absorption. We flood our bodies with it and absorb about 1-2 % of intake.
Now, I'm taking a minimum of 5mg. daily of Enzymatic Therapy brand methylcobalamin. I must admit it works best in my case, but I feel somewhat cornered because I haven't had such good results from other brands.
There are many folks here who respond well to hydroxocobalamin as well as methylcobalamin, so, it may take some trial and error, possibly genetics testing, etc.
I wish it could be easier.
P.S. Many experts believe that one should try to keep serum B12 levels above 1000, even higher, once supplementation begins. ( mine are >3000 pg/ml ) If you can find some symptoms, and observe them, it may help.
It sounds like the dose was the key thing for you, then. I do wish there weren't so many factors with all of this, it makes it hard to tell what is causing what. Which brands have you tried, and how did you find them? I'm currently on a bottle of Jarrow, but it's about a year and a half old, before they changed it, and I'm not sure which brand I'll go for next. Swanson do a very reasonably priced 5mg. Enzymatic Therapy is probably too expensive for me, I'm afraid. Bear in mind that we have fewer brands available in the UK, and importing from America can work out very expensive indeed.