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Methyl Trap, Paradoxical Folate Deficiency or...

GreenMachineX

Senior Member
Messages
362
I’m trying to figure out the differences between Methyl trap, donut hole folate deficiency, paradoxical folate deficiency, and folate trap. I’m just really confused. Do they all have different symptoms? Are there some symptoms overlap?

I also don’t understand the grouping 2a and 2b, 1 is potassium insufficiency (solved by potassium) and 3 is paradoxical folate deficiency (solved by methylcobalamin or more Methyl donors in general, correct?). What corrects each of the conditions? Which are dangerous?

Like Ive mentioned in other threads, i feel like I’m swinging back and forth between 2 conditions, 1 which increases histamine (itchy everywhere), muscle tension and insomnia, then another condition that gives pounding heart and increased heart rate, air hunger. Actually, another as well which gives brain fog and confusion, muscle twitches, muscle tension. The last 1 I induced by taking extra methylfolate. I’m guessing that was the Methyl trap? Anyway, I’m just looking for clarity on all these conditions and what solves them. And also, how dangerous each are. That air hunger and breathing difficulty and the heart stuff sure feels dangerous, but it always goes away in a few hours.
@Learner1 @alicec @Sundancer and anyone else who knows this stuff. Thanks in advance.
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,555
Location
Seattle
With all due respect to Fred, I'm not sure that 'paradoxical folate deficiency' is an actual state. Many of the deficiency symptoms that he attributes to folate can actually be symptoms of other b vitamins, like angular chelitis, which to my knowledge is attributed more to B2 (riboflavin) deficiency instead of folate.

If you're getting negative reactions to supplementation then the best advice is to back off or just stop.
 

Runner5

Senior Member
Messages
323
Location
PNW
Too much B12 causes itching and breakout I think for everyone - because I went Vegan and on the Vegan groups people who over do the B12 get rashy and itchy, like me. I fell in love with this morning Garden of LIfe brand sport drink that contains B12, it's really good and no sugar, love the stuff - replaced my coffee with it, but have drank enough of it that I broke out on the side of my face, hands and a bit on my stomach. I think I was getting like 6,000% RDA for B12 or something ;-P I'm a goof nut though.
 

GreenMachineX

Senior Member
Messages
362
With all due respect to Fred, I'm not sure that 'paradoxical folate deficiency' is an actual state. Many of the deficiency symptoms that he attributes to folate can actually be symptoms of other b vitamins, like angular chelitis, which to my knowledge is attributed more to B2 (riboflavin) deficiency instead of folate.

If you're getting negative reactions to supplementation then the best advice is to back off or just stop.
Interesting, yeah, I don’t know if it’s real or not, but my iron isn’t bad (ferritin 58, had the angular cheilitis when my iron was 96 as well).

Too much B12 causes itching and breakout I think for everyone - because I went Vegan and on the Vegan groups people who over do the B12 get rashy and itchy, like me. I fell in love with this morning Garden of LIfe brand sport drink that contains B12, it's really good and no sugar, love the stuff - replaced my coffee with it, but have drank enough of it that I broke out on the side of my face, hands and a bit on my stomach. I think I was getting like 6,000% RDA for B12 or something ;-P I'm a goof nut though.
Did you get any insomnia with that?
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
Keep it simple. If you start supplementing with B12, folate and related nutrients, particularly if in reasonable quantities, you may find that your need for folate and/or potassium suddenly increases.

You may start to get a variety of unpleasant symptoms. Freddd tried to categorise these but I think in practice some of these don't necessarily hold up. It can be difficult to tell the difference sometimes.

Simply try increasing folate and potassium separately and see if the unpleasant symptoms subside. Usually 2-4 decent doses over a day will give you an indication if you are on the right track. By a decent dose I mean perhaps 2-4 times the folate dose currently being taken, or 2-300 mg potassium (take with food, it can irritate the stomach).

If one or both settle symptoms, then you need to increase dose, perhaps not to the level used in this trial, but to a higher dose than originally taken.

There is no ideal dose - you need to work it out empirically. You may find that with time the increased need will moderate.
 

GreenMachineX

Senior Member
Messages
362
@alicec
I’ve read several times there’s has to be enough b12 present for the folate to work. Does that mean there should always be more b12 than folate, or just enough in general? In other words, maybe 600mcg b12 but need 1000 folate?
 

Sundancer

Senior Member
Messages
569
Location
Holland
I also don’t understand the grouping 2a and 2b, 1 is potassium insufficiency (solved by potassium) and 3 is paradoxical folate deficiency (solved by methylcobalamin or more Methyl donors in general, correct?). What corrects each of the conditions? Which are dangerous?

can't hekp you with this part, no idea what you're talking about

Like Ive mentioned in other threads, i feel like I’m swinging back and forth between 2 conditions, 1 which increases histamine (itchy everywhere), muscle tension and insomnia, then another condition that gives pounding heart and increased heart rate, air hunger. Actually, another as well which gives brain fog and confusion, muscle twitches, muscle tension. The last 1 I induced by taking extra methylfolate. I’m guessing that was the Methyl trap? Anyway, I’m just looking for clarity on all these conditions and what solves them. And also, how dangerous each are. That air hunger and breathing difficulty and the heart stuff sure feels dangerous, but it always goes away in a few hours.

histamine (itchy everywhere), muscle tension and insomnia,
I get that when I tirtrate up methycobalamine, it slowly vanishes through the days, for the histamine thing I take bifido infantis as I have earier found out that, for me, it helps getting the histaminething down.
I find that when body is used to new amount of methyl the sleep improves. this has happened several times already, I do so hope to once get a normal sleep again....

pounding heart and increased heart rate,muscle cramps ( feet) and muscles hard ( mainly calves but when I would let it get worse that spreads to shoulders etc.).
these I get from potassiumshortage, also related to taking more of methylcobalamine, I'm not sure yet whether I need more when I take more methyl. Until now I'm doing fine with 10 to 15% potassium total taken through the day.


I keep the folate at 400mcg, until now that works fine and hope to keep it at that.
I seem to remember that the amount of methylcob should always be larger then folate,

took me months to find out really, go slow, jot down what happens to body when you change things.
go slow,it's very easy to get yourself a setback, the slow way may help not getting bad setbacks.
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
@alicec
I’ve read several times there’s has to be enough b12 present for the folate to work. Does that mean there should always be more b12 than folate, or just enough in general? In other words, maybe 600mcg b12 but need 1000 folate?

Just enough in general. There is no fixed ratio - work out what suits you best.

I always seem to need more folate than B12.
 

GreenMachineX

Senior Member
Messages
362
Thanks everyone. I’ll keep experimenting. I’m not afraid of experimenting anymore now that I’m on BP meds, as making the wrong decision before made my blood pressure skyrocket.
 

GreenMachineX

Senior Member
Messages
362
Well, increased the methylfolate dose this morning to 400mcg with 125mcg methylcobalamin and within 1 hour, my super tense muscles relaxed, I have full shoulder range of motion, but I’m kind of sweaty and a bit anxious and inner jitters. Should I continue this for a week and hope I just get used to it? Or maybe a little less methylfolate tomorrow morning? 200mcg methylfolate and 125mcg methylcobalamin gives me just enough energy that feels natural, but my muscles tense up and feel super tight. Maybe try 300mcg tomorrow?
@alicec @dannybex
Any thoughts? Aside from refeeding syndrome, induced deficiencies, and other things that require dose adjustments, do I just need to get used to this and it will become my new normal?
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,555
Location
Seattle
@GreenMachineX, If I were you I would try not to overanalyze it too much.

Everyone's different. It's too easy to read what others have experienced or think they've experienced and project it with regards to one's own reactions. While it may be related, the sweating, the inner jitters, etc., could easily be due to other acute stressors in your life, to other dietary factors, infections, etc..

It's also important not to zero in too much on one area of focus. I realize you're interested in methylation, but it's important to also look at the big picture as well.

As for refeeding syndrome, despite what Fred has said, I'm not sure how or if there's a connection to folate and B12 supplementation. Refeeding syndrome generally occurs from overfeeding after prolonged starvation -- for one reason or another -- and is primarily addressed by lowering the amount of calories ingested, and then gradually increasing them, while keeping an eye on phosphorus, magnesium and potassium levels. And also thiamine.
 

GreenMachineX

Senior Member
Messages
362
@dannybex
Yeah, overanalyzing is my specialty lol.
But I should mention, after about an hour or 2 of that anxiety/palpitations/jitters, I felt cool calm and collected until about an hour ago. I would say I had about 6 hours of the best I’ve felt in years. Definitely happy about that though. Don’t feel bad now, just not as great as earlier. Tomorrow I’ll try 2 doses of an extra 200mcg methylfolate instead of just 1.