ME/CFS for 18 years, recently diagnosed with D-Lactic acidosis as cause of symptoms and illness.

Archie

Senior Member
Messages
168

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,897
Location
Brisbane, Australia
So would that mean there is just basically mainly only wrong type bacteria , mainly strains that do produce D-lactic acid and same time missing other bacterias that are not producers of D-lactic acid and what actually metabolizes D-lactic acid ,removing it before it start cause problems ?
I think the answer to that is still work in progress
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5463382/
 

Avenger

Senior Member
Messages
323
I dont know what all is discussed here, i have briefly looked the whole D-lactic acidosis since i had feeling it might be related to my own condition.

There was this article which says :

"In people with a normal gut, D-lactate produced by members of the gut microbiota – including some probiotics – is metabolized by other members of the gut microbiota and does not accumulate. Thus, under normal circumstances, D-lactic acidosis does not result from consumption of D-lactic acid-producing probiotics."

https://isappscience.org/brain-fogginess-probiotics-not-the-cause/


So would that mean there is just basically mainly only wrong type bacteria , mainly strains that do produce D-lactic acid and same time missing other bacterias that are not producers of D-lactic acid and what actually metabolizes D-lactic acid ,removing it before it start cause problems ?

" Bifidobacterium as a genus does not yield D-lactate as a metabolic end product. Some Lactobacillus species do (Table 19.1 in Pot 2014). Among common probiotic Lactobacillus species, the following are classified as species that can produce D-lactic acid: L. acidophilus, L. gasseri, L. delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus (one of the 2 yogurt starter culture bacteria), L. fermentum, L. lactis, L. brevis, L. helveticus, L. plantarum and L. reuteri. Individual strains within each species may vary with regard to levels of D-lactic acid produced. "


Could this issue come from unbalanced homeostasis where there is missing critical probiotic strains that are the ones what metabolises D-lactic acid ?

Could having more Bifidobacterium bring balance to the equation ?

Hi Archie,
I am in contact with a number of people who have the same or similar Gut problems which could include D-Lactic acidosis or other forms of bacterial overgrowth. The problem could be due to lack of probiotic strains as well as overgrowths of unwanted bacteria, but may be more complex. Antibiotics can select for overgrowth through resistance and decimation of different colonies.

The overgrowth causing the problem can be due to a number of different problems including motility (eg. if you did not have poor motility, you may not suffer the side effects of overgrowth in the small intestine). There are a number of different causation's and contributing factors for bacterial overgrowth which may be slightly different for each of us (there are many ways to develop overgrowth including diabetes).

I have poor motility (constipation) since falling unwell 19 years ago. I am now using Naltrexone as a prokinetic to help keep the small intestine clear of overgrowth and stop constipation.

Naltrexone is the new (old) wonder drug which is also helping people with MS as well as ME and it also reduces inflammation, so is very good for Gut problems caused by bacterial metabolites which damage the Gut wall. Naltrexone is given for SIBO as well as constipation. There may be a number of metabolites as well as D-Lactic produced by combinations of overgrowth, and I have found a number of different bacteria recorded as causing D-Lactic acidosis.

Naltrexone for SIBO with constipation rather than diarrhea. I am also using a number of different probiotics including Multiflor, Rhasmosus, Myarisan and others experimentally, but have asked for a fecal transplant because I have had temporary remission using probiotics, but they only seem to work if you take them continuously.

I have also read that some bacteria greatly affect the production of Seratonin and possibly other mood changing substances, which may be the cause of depression in those lacking diverse Gut flora.

This is an unexplored continent and badly needs research. Gut Flora may be responsible for many diseases including ME.

Paul.
 

Archie

Senior Member
Messages
168
Hi Paul

I did not even thought the motility thing, it do make sense

Two things were mentioned , deficiency of vitamin d and potassium in google search with slow motility . I have no idea how far those theorys fly, or have anyone really noticed help from vitamin D for example . Many things stop working good when have nutrional deficiencys so i dont know. I recently checked my calsium/potassium electrolytes from blood and they were ok , i have never checked vitamin D .

I am still on the mission to go lab check do i have EBV , which i will do as soon i can , before that i probably dont yet start medicines , but it`s good to know about Naltrexone effecting also on gut issues , which i did not know .

https://healthyeating.sfgate.com/potassium-digestion-8978.html

Vitamin D deficiency gut motility

I been having probiotic & prebiotic only treatment for about 3 week now, i left out natural antimicrobials on purpose,expect some DGL licorice which btw helps on many ways, it relax colon muscle etc. I feel it`s important to test this method fully, and 3 weeks is not full , healing gut dysbiosis like things take`s own time , at least several months if not even more. Thanks for your comment Paul. Have you ever check your Vitamin D ?

I will report here how this goes for me, i am slightly optimistic now thought, becouse had much worse situation on june , but there were also other things that effected my health so not sure .

Edit: And one more thing, the probiotic Mutaflor is known to help with constipation issues , Escherichia coli Nissle 1917 strain . Have not read the mechanism thought .
 
Last edited:

Avenger

Senior Member
Messages
323
Hi Paul

I did not even thought the motility thing, it do make sense

Two things were mentioned , deficiency of vitamin d and potassium in google search with slow motility . I have no idea how far those theorys fly, or have anyone really noticed help from vitamin D for example . Many things stop working good when have nutrional deficiencys so i dont know. I recently checked my calsium/potassium electrolytes from blood and they were ok , i have never checked vitamin D .

I am still on the mission to go lab check do i have EBV , which i will do as soon i can , before that i probably dont yet start medicines , but it`s good to know about Naltrexone effecting also on gut issues , which i did not know .

https://healthyeating.sfgate.com/potassium-digestion-8978.html

Vitamin D deficiency gut motility

I been having probiotic & prebiotic only treatment for about 3 week now, i left out natural antimicrobials on purpose,expect some DGL licorice which btw helps on many ways, it relax colon muscle etc. I feel it`s important to test this method fully, and 3 weeks is not full , healing gut dysbiosis like things take`s own time , at least several months if not even more. Thanks for your comment Paul. Have you ever check your Vitamin D ?

I will report here how this goes for me, i am slightly optimistic now thought, becouse had much worse situation on june , but there were also other things that effected my health so not sure .

Edit: And one more thing, the probiotic Mutaflor is known to help with constipation issues , Escherichia coli Nissle 1917 strain . Have not read the mechanism thought .


Hi, Archie,
I often feel better in the summer months so Vit D a possibility. I have only just started Multaflor, 2 days ago, but was helped enormously by Naltrexone for at least a month prior to using Multaflor. Should help with Gut healing also. These Gut problems are so complex.

I think you just have to keep trying to find what is best for you and try the more sensible posts. Even if we have the same problems the root causes may be slightly different as with different forms of bacterial overgrowth.

I feel that I am getting somewhere now, but still seek a permanent cure/reversal. To do this the cause of SIBO or Bacterial Overgrowth causing D-La has to be found.

My illness started after EBV, Prolonged use of NSAIDs, a bowel infection and constipation that started in 1999 that is has only just been normalized by Naltrexone.

(I also get bad neck pain with Tinnitus, and am looking into Chiari Malformation Syndrome that has been found in a number of other ME/CFS. This alone can cause a huge amount of problems along with motility and autonomic problems which i have been diagnosed with).


Paul.
 

Archie

Senior Member
Messages
168
Yes these are way too complex issues , well we all need to try get past it . I get some herx from mutaflor first , it clears pathogens and die off not unusual i guess . I wonder could vitamin b 12 also cause motility issues, since it is seen causing stomach cramps, bloating etc... and sibo can cause b 12 deficiency becouse the bugs think it`s their food and not ours .
 

Pearshaped

Senior Member
Messages
583
@Avenger thanks for the interesting info.
I was told I do have lactic acidosis and to little oxygen in (arterie)blood.
They were a bit shocked but couldn't answer my questions.

How do I know which type of lactic acidosis i have?
I also avoid carbs at any cost(with rare exceptions)

is it in general worth a try for people with lactic acidosis to try an antibiotic?
 

Avenger

Senior Member
Messages
323
Yes these are way too complex issues , well we all need to try get past it . I get some herx from mutaflor first , it clears pathogens and die off not unusual i guess . I wonder could vitamin b 12 also cause motility issues, since it is seen causing stomach cramps, bloating etc... and sibo can cause b 12 deficiency becouse the bugs think it`s their food and not ours .

I used B12 for 3/4 years until stopped by NHS cutbacks. It was very helpful for a number of problems including fatigue and is important for gastrointestinal secretion, absorption and motility. I was recommended this by Professor Malcolm Hooper and told to also take Magnesium Sulphate and Folic acid with B12. My symptoms went down hill once this was stopped (I used to self inject as B12 may be poorly absorbed in the Gut).

Any single problem such as B12 can have a chain effect. B12 is important for just about everything at a cellular level and for neurotransmision.

2003 Sep;37(3):230-3.
The impact of B(12) treatment on gastric emptying time in patients with Helicobacter pylori infection.
Gümürdülü Y1, Serin E, Ozer B, Aydin M, Yapar AF, Kayaselçuk F, Yilmaz U, Boyacioğlu S.
Author information

Abstract
GOALS:
The role that vitamin B12 deficiency plays in upper gastrointestinal motor dysfunction is not clear. The aim of this study was to determine whether B12 replacement therapy improves prolonged gastric emptying time in dyspeptic patients with Helicobacter pylori infection.
MATERIALS AND METHODS:
The study included 34 H. pylori-positive patients who had low serum levels of B12 but had no other factors associated with altered gastric motility. Each patient underwent a radionuclide gastric emptying study before and after 3 months of B12 replacement therapy. Dyspepsia scores were calculated pretherapy and posttherapy using a semiquantitative scale. A vitamin B12 preparation (1000 microg/d) was given intramuscularly for the first 10 days and then orally for 80 days. H. pylori eradication therapy was delayed for 3 months until the posttreatment radionuclide study was completed.
RESULTS:
The mean gastric emptying time before B12 treatment was significantly longer than that after treatment (230 +/- 190 minutes vs. 98 +/- 29 minutes, respectively; P < 0.0001). The mean dyspepsia score was also significantly improved by treatment (5.4 +/- 1.0 vs. 1.2 +/- 1.0, respectively; P < 0.0001).
CONCLUSION:
Vitamin B12 deficiency appears to play an important role in the development of gastric dysmotility and its clinical consequences. Replacement therapy will improve gastric emptying in some patients with dyspepsia.
PMID: 12960722


I may be getting possible herx from Multiflor, felt pretty ropey yesterday and today, will have to keep taking and wait and see. There are so many variables.

Paul.
 
Last edited:

Avenger

Senior Member
Messages
323
Hi Kanga Sue and Pearshaped,
a specific request has to be made for a D-Lactic assay or D-Type Blood Gasses.

This is a sore point with the NHS in the UK! I was never diagnosed from a blood test. I was diagnosed from my clinical history by a Specialist D-Lactic Consultant. I was very unwell at the time and was given a diet and cyclical antibiotics to stop the symptoms which cannot be measured unless you fail the diet and become unwell again.

Behind everything that I have written is an ongoing battle with the NHS since 2017, to investigate D-Lactic acidosis and Bacterial Overgrowht on behalf of many with ME whose symptoms may be caused by different forms of Bacterial Overgrowth.

Things came to a head when I had Surgery on my shoulder 4 months after diagnosis of D-Lactic acidosis in 2017; I had to remain in Hospital and the Ward Doctor refused to believe that I had D-Lactic Acidosis and I was given frequent doses of contraindicated Sucrose in Oramorph until I fell ill. I made a complaint after Surgery because the Ward Doctor had stated that I was suffering from Somatization (a psychological diagnosis which had been given for the symptoms of ME in 2001, which were in fact undiagnosed D-Lactic acidosis). He could easily have contacted my Consultant or Doctor, but just refused to believe my diagnosis.

My local Path Lab are now saying that they have not set up these tests because there is no one available to interpret them! When Blood Gasses show the level of acidosis and breathing difficulty.

I made a complaint to the NHS that my diagnosis had not been taken seriously and that I had been given contraindicated medication. The NHS Chief Executive then stated that my diagnosis of D-Lactic acidosis had not been clinically verified and so it was not necessary to be take into consideration during my stay for surgery, when D-Lactic acidosis can be fatal without taking anesthesia into consideration.

The NHS have not allowed me to have the blood tests which has to be requested by your Doctor despite my consultant having requested both Blood Gasses and a D-Lactic assay when I fall ill (which is still inevitable at times because I fail my diet when I cannot find the correct foods or make mistakes with Carbohydrates, and have become resistant to one antibiotic after another).

My Consultant has given me a letter to carry stating my diagnosis, but the Chief Executives Doctor is still saying that my diagnosis does not need to be considered because it has not been clinically verified, but they are refusing to allow it to be set up (Blood has to be taken, separated to plasma and then frozen within an hour and then sent to Birmingham Children's Hospital for analysis).

I am in a crazy situation. I do not think that the NHS want me to have this clinically proven or the possibility that there may be others with ME who have been misdiagnosed. My Consultant has not asked for my diagnosis to be clinically proven, but wants these assays performed to tell how unwell I have become.

D-Lactic assay can be performed privately at Biolab in London, but for best results should be taken when you are most unwell, when the metabolite is at a peak. You may be able to get your local path lab to separate the plasma, but Biolab will give you all of the details necessary (eg. not sending in the post close to the weekend).


Paul.
 

Pearshaped

Senior Member
Messages
583
Thank you @Avenger for this info and sharing your story.

I'll keep this info in mind while waiting for medical community to catch up *sigh*
 

Avenger

Senior Member
Messages
323
Hi, I forgot, the tests for D-Lactic acidosis from Biolab in London are very reasonable at around £36. I would contact them.

From my perspective, D-Lactic acid is a neurotoxin and a likely candidate for ME's neurological symptoms. But other metabolites cause by other Overgrowths may cause similar problems and it is likely that those with D-Lactic acidosis will also have other metabolites produced.

I have already found a number of different D-Lactic producing Bacteria sited in reports on different patients with D-La, and it is possible for there to be different combinations of Bacterial Overgrowth running simultaneously and variants of D-La etc..

But more importantly is why we are getting these Overgrowths? To control D-La and SIBO you have to identify and gain control the underlying cause.

But Naltrexone is definitely helping me. I can say that it has stopped the constipation that came with my illness in 1999. It may be that my problems have been due to motility because I also had gastric emptying problems. I am being cautious at the moment, but another member I am in contact with has also had success due to Naltrexone (low dosage 0.5 to 3.5mg).

If you have slow motility/constipation it may well help you. D-Lactic acidosis can cause either constipation or diarrhea as can any form of SIBO.

Paul.
 

Avenger

Senior Member
Messages
323
Hi SamB, SB4, Archie, Pearshaped, Kanga Sue and all who have followed my post.

I have been given a lot of help and input from SamB, who came up with Naltrexone Prokinetic which is still working for me. I am also using a number of Probiotics together including Multiflor, Rhamnosus, Myarisan and one other, and no new exacerbations despite further resistance to antibiotics. I am now using random combinations and getting some of the free vitamin D from the good weather which helps. I have note felt so good in a long time.

I am pretty certain that this is only temporary as long as I continue taking Naltrexone and Probiotics, but I have not heard back from the Gastroenterologists who perform Fecal Transplants yet.

Still a little early to wave a victory flag, but things are looking much better.

SamB has got more data on Fecal Transplants performed with success on IBS related ME/CFS patients, which i have lost the webpage for and will be back with later, but I have similar abstracts below; It is looking more and more as though Gut Bacteria, whether abnormal balance, lacking species, or in overgrowth may be the cause of many of our problems (that does not mean that there may still not be Viral implications as Gut Virus are able to make significant changes to Bacteria in the Gut), but the possibility of correction through transplant is really good news! Abstracts below;


Fecal Microbiota Transplantation for Fibromyalgia: A Case Report and Review of the Literature
Author(s) T. Thurm1, J. N. Ablin2, D. Buskila3,4, N. Maharshak1*
Affiliation(s)
1 The Bacteriotherapy Clinic, Department of Gastroenterology and Liver Diseases, Tel Aviv Sourasky Medical Center, Affiliated to the Sackler Faculty of Medicine, Tel Aviv University, Tel Aviv, Israel.
2 Institute of Rheumatology, Tel Aviv Sourasky Medical Center, and Sackler Faculty of Medicine, Tel Aviv University, Tel Aviv, Israel.
3 Department of Medicine H, Soroka Medical Center, Beer Sheva, Israel.
4 Faculty of Health Sciences, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, Beer Sheva, Israel.
ABSTRACT
A 58-year-old patient diagnosed with fibromyalgia, irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) and chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS), non-responsive to variety of treatments over the years, suffered from significant social and occupational disabilities. The patient was interested in fecal microbiota transplantation (FMT), but given that FMT is not approved for these indications, he used an online protocol for FMT screening and preparation and self-instilled the filtrate using an enema 6 times. FMT resulted in a gradual improvement of symptoms and 9 months after the last treatment, the patient reported full recovery of symptoms, going back to work at full time employment. Improvement of symptoms was associated with major alterations of the enteric microbiota, according to next generation sequencing analysis performed before the first FMT and after the last FMT. Most prominent alterations at the genus level included a decrease in fecal Streptococcus proportion from 26.39% to 0.15% and an increase in Bifidobacterium from 0% to 5.23%. This case is added to several additional case reports that demonstrated the effectivity of FMT in these functional disorders that are lacking an otherwise good medical therapeutic intervention. We conclude that randomized controlled trials are required to ground FMT as a possible therapy for these difficult-to-treat conditions.
KEYWORDS
Microbiota, Microbiome, Irritable Bowel Syndrome, Functional Disorders, Dysbiosis, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

1. Case Presentation
A 58-year-old patient presented to our outpatient clinic complaining of severe diffuse pain, insomnia, diarrhea, abdominal pain, bloating, photophobia, hyper- sensitivity to odor, noise, light touch, tinnitus and palpitations. He suffered from cognitive impairment: memory loss, concentration deficit and depression with suicidal thoughts.
Most of his symptoms started 18 years earlier at the age of 40. He was diagnosed with fibromyalgia, IBS and CFS. On his physical examination, typical tender points for fibromyalgia were accessed. He underwent lactose, glucose, fructose and sorbitol breath tests, stool cultures, serological testing for inflammatory bowel disease and celiac, fecal calprotectin level test, upper endoscopy and colonoscopy. As all 4 breath tests were positive, the patient was diagnosed with small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO). ASCA IgA was also mildly positive and he underwent a video capsule endoscopy that was normal.
Throughout the years, the patient was treated with selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), serotonin antagonist and reuptake inhibitors (SARIs), serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors (SNRIs), tricyclic antidepressants (TCAs), gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA), pregabalin, tramadol, Omega 3, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT), medical cannabis, St. John’s wort (Hypericum perforatum), acupuncture, medicinal hot springs, hydrotherapy, mild exercise, all without considerable effect.
After a personal tragedy, the disease progressed and the patient became disabled and stopped working. He spent most of his days in bed, unable to perform minimal physical activity; his insomnia has worsened despite treatment with melatonin and sleeping pills. Memory impairment had become severe, with memory loss of close relatives and friends, and marked disorientation. Social security has granted the patient 70% general disability and a complete (100%) occupational disability.
The patient sent his own stool samples for microbial next generation sequ- encing analysis at a commercial lab. The results demonstrated high levels of Streptococci (Table 1). Stool culture, done at the same time, was positive for Candida. He was treated with Hydroxychloroquine and Rifampicin, VSL#3 (probiotic), dietary change to low carbohydrates and low sugar diet, reporting mild and short standing improvement.
The patient was interested in FMT as an experimental treatment for his mixed symptoms caused by fibromyalgia, CFS and IBS. Given that this type of treatment is not approved for these indications, he used an online protocol for FMT screening and preparation. His son was screened for HIV, HCV, fecal parasites and bacterial cultures. Stool was homogenized with a food processor and was self-instilled using an enema. Within 24 hours he experienced dramatic improvement of symptoms that lasted for 6 weeks. Four consecutive FMTs resulted with the same transient improvement of symptoms, lasting for approximately 6 weeks each. The improvement from the sixth course lasted for over 9 months and included additional treatment for SIBO with FODMAP and rifaximin.
1-1900389x3.png

Table 1. Fecal microbiota analysis performed prior and post fecal microbial transplan- tation (FMT). A 16S rDNA genome sequencing demonstrating microbial composition alterations at the “Genus level” following FMT.
*Abnormal % of total microbiota as defined by the reference of the commercial lab.
The patient reported marked improvement with total resolution of fatigue and depression, marked improvement of insomnia, oversensitivity to touch, odor and noise. Cognitive impairment has also improved. A physical examination by a rheumatologist (JN A) was normal with no evidence of synovitis or tender fibromyalgia points, concluding that all his symptoms had improved. The patient returned to full employment and is now asymptomatic for over a year.
A second stool microbial analysis demonstrated significant changes compared to the first analysis (Table 1, Table 2). Most marked was a decrease in the proportion of the Firmicutes phylum from 99.35% to 36.17% and an increase in the Bacteriodetes phylum from 0.42% to 39.82% post FMT. At the genus level, fecal Streptococcus proportion fell from 26.39% to 0.15% and Bifidobacterium increased from 0% to 5.23%. Additional changes included bacterial diversity index that was reduced from 3.21 to 2.55 post FMTs and a negative stool culture for Candida.
2. Discussion
Functional disorders, such as fibromyalgia, CFS and IBS, affect many patients and are frequently associated. These disorders clinically differ with an unclear pathogenesis.
Fibromyalgia affects up to 2% of general population [1] . Pain is a predominant symptom of fibromyalgia. However, fatigue, non-refreshed sleep, mood disturbance and cognitive impairment are common, and have an important influence on quality of life [2] . The European league against Rheumatism (EUL- AR) recommendations, for the management of fibromyalgia were published in 2016: Graduated approach aiming at improving health-related quality of life by non-pharmacological modalities is advised as first line therapy [3] .
CFS is diagnosed after at least 6 months of unexplained fatigue [4] . CBT and graded exercise therapy (GET) have shown moderate effectiveness [5] .

Table 2. Fecal microbiota analysis performed prior and post fecal microbial transplan- tation (FMT). A 16S rDNA genome sequencing demonstrating microbial composition alterations at the “Phylum” and “Family” level following FMT.
IBS is a functional disorder characterized by abdominal pain or discomfort associated with defecation or change in bowel habits according the Rome criteria [6] . IBS usually causes long-term symptoms, which may occur in episodes. The symptoms interfere with daily life and social functioning in many patients. The prevalence of IBS in Europe and North America is estimated to be 10% to 15% [7] .
There is a marked overlap between these conditions. The prevalent theory suggests that CNS dysfunction of unknown origin causes over responsiveness to sensory perception stimuli that are within the normal range among healthy individuals in patients suffering from fibromyalgia, CFS, IBS and other functional disorders [8] . Investigations using standardized criteria reported 42% - 70% of fibromyalgia patients meeting IBS criteria [9] [10] and one study demonstrated 92% IBS in patients diagnosed with CFS [11] . Many patients report being diagnosed with fibromyalgia and later the diagnosis is converted to CFS and vice versa.
During the last decade, the importance of the enteric microbiome for health and disease conditions has emerged. Changes in the composition of gut microbiota (dysbiosis), have been associated with gastrointestinal, metabolic, autoi- mmune, allergic and neuropsychiatric disorders [12] and specifically in IBS patients [13] [14] , fibromyalgia [14] and in CFS [15] . Moreover, interventions altering the enteric microbiota, such as probiotics therapy [16] , and rifaximin [17] have shown efficacy in IBS patients.
FMT, which is the infusion of liquid filtrate feces from a healthy donor, into the gut of an affected recipient, has shown significant benefit for the treatment of Clostridium difficile infection (CDI) [18] [19] and is currently the recommended therapy for recurrent CDI [20] . FMT has also shown positive results for the treatment of inflammatory bowel disease [21] in multiple studies and have demonstrated some efficacy in non GI disorders, such as in Parkinson’s disease [22] , myoclonus dystonia [23] , multiple sclerosis [24] , obesity, insulin resistance and metabolic syndrome [25] . In a study of 60 CFS patients treated with FMT, response rate was 70%. Twelve of the patients were contacted after 15 - 20 years, 7 reported full recovery and 5 reported no CFS symptoms for 1.5 and 3 years following FMT [26] .
In IBS patients, few studies, mostly case reports and case series, have demonstrated positive results for FMT [27] and it is currently tested in randomized controlled trials [NIH. clinical trialNCT02328547].
D-lactic acid producing Enterococcus and Streptococcus species were shown to be over-represented in CFS patients [28] . A recent study comparing microbiota of CFS patient to controls, observed significantly lower levels of Faecalibacterium and Bifidobacteriumin the CFS population compared to healthy controls [15] . Faecalibacterium is known to have anti-inflammatory properties [29] and Bifidobacterium, commonly used as probiotics [30] , was previously reported to reduce CRP levels in a cohort of CFS patients [31] . In addition, a significantly higher load of Candida albicans was found in CFS patients when in the acute phase of illness compared with when in remission [32] . Although the clinical significance of these findings is yet to be determined and although the fecal microbial analysis was not performed as a part of a clinical trial, some of the microbial alterations cited above are in line with the microbial alterations observed before and after FMT in our case. Specifically, the decrease of fecal Streptococcus and increased Bifidobacterium proportions and loss of fecal Candida, may support the beneficial properties of FMT.
Nevertheless, our results should be interpreted with caution, given that in addition to self FMTs, the patient underwent multiple additional interventions such as different dietary regiments, therapeutic trials with multiple medications, antibiotics and probiotics. These can also be responsible, at least partially, for the microbial alterations that were found, such as the decreased microbial diversity index that dropped from 3.21 to 2.55 perhaps due to antibiotics treatment.
Moreover, as in any treatment modality implemented for chronic pain, a significant placebo response must also be taken under consideration. However, the clinical improvement was clearly associated with the FMTs treatments.
No RCT’s or case series have been published on FMT for fibromyalgia. To our knowledge, this is the first case of self-executed FMT resulting in full recovery of fibromyalgia and CFS. In the absence of satisfactory cognitive or pharmacological treatment for these disorders, few publications reported the experience of FMT for these indications.
Although there are no randomized control trials (RCTs) supporting this treatment, in a few case series on CFS and reports on fibromyalgia, FMT induced long term remission of CFS [26] and could be beneficial for fibromyalgia. This is a low risk procedure with mostly mild and short term complications [33] [34] , with possible long term remission that may result in a significant cost effectiveness. A major concern is that the fame of FMT may lead patients to use a “do-it-yourself” approach (as in this case), without medical supervision, with possibly harmful consequences [35] [36] . A case of UC patient who suffered cytomegalovirus infection after performing FMT without donor screening was reported [37] and therefore we do not support performing FMT without appropriate medical care.
3. Conclusions
We have described a case of self-performed FMT, in which FMT was extremely beneficial in a severely ill patient who suffered from a combination of three functional disorders-fibromyalgia, CFS and IBS. The patient had high levels of Candida and Streptococci that have normalized after the FMT.
We conclude that FMT should be tested as a possible treatment for fibromyalgia and CFS. Controlled data regarding the microbiome characteristics of patients suffering from fibromyalgia should be obtained, and RCTs are required to ground FMT as a possible therapy for these difficult-to-treat conditions, to learn whether this approach is truly beneficial, who is the right target population, who should serve as donors and what is the right protocol of performing FMT for this patient population: number of FMTs, volume and optimal way of administration.
Cite this paper
Thurm, T. , Ablin, J. , Buskila, D. , Maharshak, N. (2017) Fecal Microbiota Transplantation for Fibromyalgia: A Case Report and Review of the Literature. Open Journal of Gastroenterology, 7, 131-139. doi: 10.4236/ojgas.2017.74015.
References
[1] Queiroz, L.P. (2013) Worldwide Epidemiology of Fibromyalgia. Current Pain and Headache Reports, 17, 356.

[2] Fietta, P. and Manganelli, P. (2007) Fibromyalgia and Psychiatric Disorders. Acta Biomed, 78, 88-95.

[3] Macfarlane, G.J., et al. (2016) EULAR Revised Recommendations for the
View more +


Paul.
 

unicorn7

Senior Member
Messages
180
If you are sure that a specific kind of bacteria is producing your symptoms and you are getting resistant to antibiotics, maybe you could have a look at bacteriophage therapy. There is a centre in Georgie, it's called Eliava institute. They are offering a therapy with bacteriophages. They even have something about me/cvs on their website.
 

Avenger

Senior Member
Messages
323
Hi,
Bacteriophages are a good idea and Eliava will identify any overgowth and supply a general profilactic for general SIBO etc. They can do this all through the post after you send a sample.

But why not try Naltrexone (low dose 0.5 to 3 mg) which has been used to stabilize SIBO and can be given on prescription as a profilactic. I have been using it for D-Lactic acidosis and it is known to stop a number of possible immune disorders including MS where bacteria could also be a related cause.

Motility has been found to be the problem in a lot of SIBO cases. I had constipation with D-La, which has been normalized by Naltrexone, there are some threads concerning the drug. I am also using rotating Probiotics and combinations.

Paul.
 
Messages
51
Hi all,

thanks for the thread.

Slowly working my through.

One thing I wanted to ask is about herbal antimicrobials.

How do we know what bacterial populations we are targeting?

As in the Luke White paper, using the wrong antibiotic can cause the opposite of what we want...

I wanted to try a handful of herbals but for now waaaay too cautious.

I have oregano oil and allicin, both of which are firmly on the shelf for now (also because I have more testing coming up).


Also, has anyone tried herbals for d-lactate specifically, and had some success?


Cheers
 
Last edited:
Messages
51
Dear Hip and TMartin,
the Probiotic experiment has ended in disaster!!!


I had a bad recurrence of illness after some 5 weeks or more free of symptoms using normal Carbohydrates and Sugars while taking Probiotics which did contain Lactic producing Bacteria. I have been very unwell for the last few days and have had to use the exclusion diet with Antibiotics.

I will have to repeat the experiment with isolates of the Bacteria that have been used by the Japanese Gastroenterologist Researchers. I could only find similar mixed with Lactic producing in the Probiotic that I chose.

I am still not sure why I was symptom free, followed by recurrence of D-La??? or whether the Lactic producing Bacteria are to blame? I will only know for sure if I try the same Bacteria used by the Japanese or experiment with non Lactic producing mixed cultures?

Perhaps using Prokinetics and Promotility products will help remove D-Lactic Bacteria accumulate in the Small Intestine.

Symptoms came back over a few days which started with feeling bad fatigue, falling asleep at my laptop and Flu like aching pain and malaise (brain fog), then the symptoms rapidly escalated and I started to feel sick on and off, dyspepsia, slurred speech, confused, very unwell, with abnormal gait like drunk at times with rapid heartbeat. I can imagine that this may be about levels of production. It is possible that some may develop lower or higher levels of Overgrowth.

My antibiotics are no longer working and so I used three failed ones together and barely managed to stop the symptoms. Due to difficulty thinking I had further Carbohydrates by mistake and was close to going into Hospital. I am only back to normal 6 days on due to adding some Carbohydrates by mistake two days running.

I have read a lot of conflicting reports concerning Lactic producing Bacteria and do not have time to wait around another 18 years. I hope to find a way to reverse the condition. I will just have to keep experimenting.

Thank you TMartin, you reminded me to use Bicarbonate of Soda during the crisis which helped reduce my symptoms. Bicarbonate acts as a bactericide for D-Lactic producing Bacteria. It lowers the PH which D-La Bacteria thrive in, which effectively helps to reduce them and their product. I may Bicarbonate of Soda to the Antibiotics if I have another exacerbation because it can increase the ability of Antibiotics for Gut Bacteria.

...

Paul.

2 things I noticed.

Your timeline for remission is very similar to mine. I had my best phase of remission starting last Christmas but more Jan into Feb.

It was a bit hit and miss, I thought it was something to do with experimenting with rice/sushi and kombucha and some other similar fermented food products.

e.g. I did eat a lot of sweet potatoes, parsnips, rice, some limited sugars during christmas. But I also had a lot of kombucha, fermented beetroot etc. Also activated charcoal often with "dodgy" meals helps. (I'll collate many of my helpful things into another thread soon).

however the real remission phase came later (and I always feel sushi/rice has been involved somewhere in 90% of my remission phases, though I don't have a diary of that time, I think maybe only 24-48 phases, not sure if it helps to trigger larger changes).

It was kind of mid Jan into end of Feb, with a bad week in the middle. But at one phase I was 95% OK. Just mild gut sensation in lower bowel. Everything else was calm, no inflammation etc. Sleeping well, optimism returned, energy.

But to this day I can't figure out exactly what it was that got me to that place for such a long period.


We always feel somewhat responsible for our variations because we are trying to control all the time.

I thought it might be: starting antibacterial toothpaste (colgate) and Jason's mouthwash (very high in antimicrobials), curcumin/turmeric, something to do with the rice/carbs with fermented products together, vaping cannabis in v small amounts every day (great for motility, anxiety, etc).

But maybe it was just some other thing, like a microbe in the air that passed through London?? :D

or something I picked up over Christmas from food/fam?

all I know is I could eat very relaxed, and I was basically symptom free for multi week. Although I didn't go all in on wheat/sugar again, I did eat more bananas, dates and just didn't react to anything for a while.


It's interesting we both basically went into remission roughly same time (I am in SE London...).



Other thing is that I actually reacted to bicarb very strangely when I tried to help myself last relapse phase. I slowly sipped less than 1/2 a teaspoon in water over an hour on an empty stomach when I was in a bad multi week phase (also triggered by aggressive use of probiotics in Rhythm Kefir drink). Some notes I wrote later follows:

- wave of disorientation
- wave of sensation up Vagus nerve/chest (similar but different to "acidosis" type episodes I had experienced). I don't recall breath being affected but unsure.
- fear response (sudden effects in body generally give me fear response anyway because of past trauma).
- neuropathies/numbness, tingling all over body.

- a moment of clarity/calm came later (here's the desired effect perhaps?)
- short term decrease in inflammation, always left side of head is a focal point for this and it was cleared.
- very short term full body calm ("on fire" feeling subsided, probably all nervous issues subsided as I experience in proper remission or good management).
- overall very unpredictable and any relief was very short lived.

- abdominal discomfort, digestion issues eating hours later. Obvious burping type stuff during administration.
- later a deeper episode of negative symptoms returned (can't say if this was causal or just a normal varation).
- next day still pretty bad/worse


EDIT: just saw the post about bicarb and anxiety attacks. Interesting, sound like I'm in that ballpark
 
Last edited:

bread.

Senior Member
Messages
499
Hi, yes I had extremes of post exertional malaise (this could vary from mild to extreme at different times). The symptoms also felt at times like infections or Flu at times. Jennifer Brea also describes her symptoms as infections, which resolve temporarily with antibiotics (Times interview).

I was bed ridden and also very unwell at times. Often repeated activity would lead to prolonged periods of bed rest. I could not recover from normal activity as I had before becoming unwell. I had very bad symptoms and was expecting to either die or to have to commit suicide because Doctors could not recognize the symptoms (I made my will expecting to die from the symptoms on a number of occasions).

I also had systemic pain (I now have to remember, as receiving treatment and much of this is only a bad memory). I had pin prick sensations during the worst illness when I would become confused or have difficulty thinking and was only diagnosed with D-La when I realized that my symptoms abated after using Antibiotics.

Sometimes I would have tacharrhymias or fast heartbeats after activity, at worst after pushing things with chest pain. Because I was told that there was nothing wrong with me I would repeatedly push things until I became very unwell. My memory was also badly affected and long term acidosis can lead to cellular damage especially to the brain where cells cannot be replaced and it is likely that this may lead to early dementia.

D-La and Bacterial Overgrowth needs urgent research. Bacterial Overgrowth alone can cause malabsorbtion of vitamins and autoimmune disease causing the immune system to attack its host cells. This is a complex problem.

Paul.

Hi,

how is it diagnosed? are there other ways than elimination diet?
 
Back