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ME/CFS, Fibromyalgia, and Long COVID – the “Metabolic Derangement” Diseases?

SWAlexander

Senior Member
Messages
1,944
Violeta Thank you. I read these papers and many more.
So far research is not really interested in going this route.
Have you come across a paper regarding skeletal muscle and heart muscle weakness, related to post-polio (PPS)? I may find the connection.
 

SWAlexander

Senior Member
Messages
1,944
One more very interesting clinical observation about "Antiphospholipid syndrome and acute adrenal insufficiency".

"Cutaneous aspects of Refsum's disease" See attached PDF or:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/21436984_Cutaneous_Aspects_of_Refsum's_Disease

Today I spoke to my hematologist and mentioned low cortisol and this paper. He didn´t know what I was talking about, stating that adrenalin or cortisol has no connection with thrombosis or APS. Also, he never heard of high phytanic acid.

I´m beginning to lose hope for myself and others with severe illnesses.

One more on Refsum Disease: https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/refsum-disease/
General Discussion
Summary

Refsum disease is a metabolic disorder characterized by the build-up of a fat (lipid) called phytanic acid in blood plasma and tissues. Individuals with Refsum disease are usually normal at birth, but between the ages of 10 and 20 years old, symptoms begin to develop starting with loss of night vision (retinitis pigmentosa), and eventually including weakness in arms and legs or unsteadiness (cerebellar ataxia). Other common symptoms include a loss of sense of smell (anosmia), rough, scaly skin (ichthyosis) and after many years, deafness.

Treatment for Refsum disease is based on limiting the intake of foods high in phytanic acid. Our bodies cannot make phytanic acid; rather, it is found in foods such as dairy, beef, lamb, and some seafoods. Refsum disease is caused by a change (mutation) in the gene that makes an enzyme responsible for breaking down phytanic acid, a particular type of fatty acid which is derived by bacterial fermentation of green plants or algae. The lack of function of the enzyme (phytanoyl-CoA hydroxylase) leads to a build-up of phytanic acid in blood plasma and tissues. The disorder is inherited in an autosomal recessive manner.
 

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Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,751
Location
Alberta
The question remains "downstream effect" caused by what?

My guess is dysfunctional brain cells. Which cells and why are they in that abnormal state? That's what we need researchers to focus on. If they study an endpoint (downstream effect), there's no guarantee that it will lead to the root cause, at least in less time/effort than it would take by looking directly for the root cause. I think the 'start downstream' approach is more likely to run into the 'we've found an abnormality, but there are thousands of possible causes for that' problem. Imagine that the abnormality is a slight difference in vagus nerve signals. We don't have enough data on vagus nerve function in normal healthy people vs unhealthy people to proceed past that point, without needing yet another mega-project to get that data, and that might lead to a similar 'lots of possibilities that we lack enough data on' situation only slightly further upstream.

If the question is: "why should we assume that the core dysfunction is in the brain rather than the body?", I offer two reasons:

1. People have tried lots of body-affecting treatments and not found any that reliably switch ME (and all its symptoms) off. The blood and tissue in the body has also been searched quite a lot--without finding a reliable marker, so maybe it's not there to be found. That argument is weaker for the brain cause, due to the BBB blocking many treatments and the difficulty of taking measurements. FWIW, both cuminaldehyde and T2 cross the BBB, and I assume prednisone does, and all three triggered temporary remissions.

2. Brain function is less well studied than the rest of the body, which means there's still lots of opportunity for the root cause of ME to hide. There have been quite a few new discoveries in brain function/structure in the last year; any of which can be considered 'virgin terrain' for looking for ME's core dysfunction.
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,389
. There have been quite a few new discoveries in brain function/structure in the last year; any of which can be considered 'virgin terrain' for looking for ME's core dysfunction.

well Prusty and his group found HHV-6 inside certain brain cells and spinal tissue. Waiting to see the actual paper.

If we look at brain tissue where do they find these viruses?

I generally believe its inside the brain, too. And the mechanical aspects also play a role as the brain stem drops from weakened ligaments over time. This creates the opportunity for increased symptoms over time, and for many odd symptoms man infesting depending upon what tissue and whats cells exactly are affected.
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,751
Location
Alberta
I don't think ME is a virus in brain cells. I think it's unlikely that prednisone, cumin and T2 could switch the virus completely off over the space of minutes, and that they'd switch back on over the space of minutes. A theory for the core dysfunction of ME has to (okay, alternatives aren't impossible) fit that time frame and chemical response. I think it's likely some chemical ratio in some cells that feeds back in some way that maintains that ratio at an abnormal level. The three chemicals I had remissions from managed to affect that ratio, but something adapted to counter the change and maintain the abnormal level.
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,751
Location
Alberta
My question is, can the body (organs) function without the Hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenal axis?


Easy to test: chop it out (in a mouse or fruit fly or slug?) and see what happens. For more scientific fun, destroy individual cells in different areas of those parts of the brain, and see what happens.

There are still too many unknowns for this to be simulated.
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,389
could switch the virus completely off over the space of minutes, and that they'd switch back on over the space of minutes

The viruses are latent or otherwise not in an infectious state- and so its some other form of influencing the tissue they reside in. Perhaps.

Never had anything switch on or off in minutes.
 

SWAlexander

Senior Member
Messages
1,944
Should we look first at how the hypothalamus regulates the immune system?

"The hormones secreted or regulated by the pituitary gland therefore regulate every level of immune activity, including the competence of lymphocytes to respond to immune/inflammatory stimuli, signal transduction, gene activation, the production and activity of cytokines and other immune effector functions."

Pituitary hormones and immune function https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9401545/

To start here is my thyroid (exame Dec. 6th 2022). How can such a damaged thyroid provide the heart with the needed TSH?

1670396771599.png
 
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Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,751
Location
Alberta
The viruses are latent or otherwise not in an infectious state- and so its some other form of influencing the tissue they reside in. Perhaps.

Yes, I was thinking about it last night and realized that the response time doesn't invalidate the theory of viral causes. Some inactive viruses in a cell could alter some chemical ratios and/or reaction rates, and my observed ME switching could have affected those ratios/rates without affecting the viruses. So, I'll accept that ME could involve viruses. That could explain why short-term antiviral treatments don't work reliably, and even long-term treatments aren't reliable and not reliably permanent: the antivirals don't reliably clear all the viruses out of all the brain cells.

Never had anything switch on or off in minutes.

Mine did, several times. My poll about temporary remissions ( https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/poll-have-you-experienced-temporary-remissions.77047/ ) had 23 vote Yes (15 more than once) vs 28 No. The poll didn't include the time it took, so I'd need to do another poll to ask about that, if anyone thought the results would be useful. I certainly thought that the fact that ME could switch state 100% over such a short period of time was important. It can rule out a lot of theories. Not the virus one, as it turns out. :)
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,389
Mine did, several times. My poll about temporary remissions

I'll never really know what I experienced for about 39 consecutive years (my Chronic Epstein Barr condition) (as ME did not exist in my world)

I won't elaborate, but I did not have classic ME symptoms but I was never well compared to the rest of everybody I know. Also problem in the department of Reproduction.
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,389
Why not elaborate? Why not list your symptoms?

wonder what I wasn't going to elaborate on? (laugh)

I"ve had thoughts like: oh I feel ALMOST NORMAL. Lasts for a few minutes. I don't call that a remission.

Perhaps I"m in the kitchen and for a brief period of time, Im simply 'normal".

After I developed the Worsening, I get bouts of severe gastroperesis. Since my head isn't attached to my spine very well, I do wonder when I have huge bouts of severe vomiting: maybe I've injured my own brain.

My friend thinks the symptom: my right nipple has disappeared- might just be the best symptom ever to take to some I don' t believe you Doctor Consultations. I'll just whip out some private anatomy and we can do a Show and Tell, plus we have N=2 with regard to this statistic. My left nipple is "normal".

Between 1963-2018 I had some mild form of THIS. But called it Chronic Epstein Barr and: something is wrong with my neck.

Interesting the Mechanical Theory emerged. Yup- there is something very physics about all this.
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,751
Location
Alberta
I think ME is also a connective tissue disorder.

More likely a downstream effect that affects some PWME, since not all of us have connective tissue problems. If ME is affecting the control center for the whole body, with individual variations, then it's no surprise that there will be a wide variety of downstream effects, since it's all interconnected.