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ME caused by squeezed nerve?

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Vagus nerve damage can cause POTS and Central sleep apnea and I have both......

It also is responsible for mucus function and I have moderate mucus blockage every single day of my life! as well......

It is also responsible for speech clarity which I have not,
Meaning I have talked slow as John Wayne all of my life......
 

Misfit Toy

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@optimist --I went to the 2nd best Atlas Orthogonal Doctor in the country. He treats atlas in the neck. Claimed my whole problem was the atlas. For 8 years I did this and got no better. I would go out several times a week. They have you sit until this thing that looks like a laser. The machine sends a sound right into your ear to put your atlas back into place.

Don't believe the hype. Did it help my fibro? For a bit. Did he do kinesiology and diagnose me with 5 other things...yup. Did it take thousands of dollars out of my pocket?? Yup.

Do I go to a straight up chiropractor and have the same luck? YUP.

Not for one hot minute is this all due to the atlas bone. We have so many things going wrong here.

Do not pick up and move to a foreign location for help. That's a lot of risk, money, etc.

Are there atlas orthogonal docs over there? They are trained to treat the Atlas nerve. Look it up for Norway. They should help you in deciding something so drastic because trust me...it doesn't work.

Whenever i hear the word, GURU, I am totally bothered. Such bullshit.
 

optimist

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@optimist --I went to the 2nd best Atlas Orthogonal Doctor in the country. He treats atlas in the neck. Claimed my whole problem was the atlas. For 8 years I did this and got no better. I would go out several times a week. They have you sit until this thing that looks like a laser. The machine sends a sound right into your ear to put your atlas back into place.

Don't believe the hype. Did it help my fibro? For a bit. Did he do kinesiology and diagnose me with 5 other things...yup. Did it take thousands of dollars out of my pocket?? Yup.

Do I go to a straight up chiropractor and have the same luck? YUP.

Not for one hot minute is this all due to the atlas bone. We have so many things going wrong here.

Do not pick up and move to a foreign location for help. That's a lot of risk, money, etc.

Are there atlas orthogonal docs over there? They are trained to treat the Atlas nerve. Look it up for Norway. They should help you in deciding something so drastic because trust me...it doesn't work.

Whenever i hear the word, GURU, I am totally bothered. Such bullshit.
Thanks for the testimony! The sound in ear thing sounds very odd? Did he explain how that was supposed to move the atlas bone?

I did a search for practitioners in Norway, and the way they do it is a one time treatment where they use some sort of a tool to push back in the neck to make the bone pop back into place...

I read in one Norwegian ME forum about one lady who had tried it. She felt somewhat lighter just after the treatment, but then she got really sore in her body for about a month, and after that she improved again to a point a bit better than before the treatment... don't know how she feels today.
 

NK17

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@Hip Very interesting what you said re: co-morbidity vs. causal relationship. I don't want to take this thread off track but I now have co-morbid Hashimotos Disease w/CFS and wonder if the same virus & immune issues led to the attack on my thyroid that led to the CFS?
@Gingergrrl any real ME/CFS specialist is very aware of the high rate of comorbidity of Hashimoto thyroiditis and ME/CFS.
Dr. Kogelnik gave a speech at El Camino hospital in April of 2011 (you can still find it on Jeannette Burmaister's blog www.thoughtsaboutme).
Both EBV and HHV6 viruses have been proven to attack the thyroid gland and set an immune response that when out of control causes autoimmune thyroiditis (destruction of tissues and subsequent malfunctioning of the gland). As almost all autoimmune diseases it is more prevalent in women, but men can come down with it too.
You can also look up the links between Hashimoto and the HHV6 herpes virus on the extremely up to date and informative HHV6 Foundation web site.
 
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Vagus nerve damage can cause POTS and Central sleep apnea and I have both......

It also is responsible for mucus function and I have moderate mucus blockage every single day of my life! as well......

It is also responsible for speech clarity which I have not,
Meaning I have talked slow as John Wayne all of my life......
Oh,

How could I forget the digestive system as well...

I have not been regular all of my life.......

Put it this way

I have been irregular for soooooo long that I did not even realize it..

I thought it was normal!!

I will go up to a week of not moving my bowels

and

when I do go, I'll be regular for about 2 days(a ton of you know what)

then it will turn to diaria then water for a day or so(horrible cramps/pain in lower abdomen)..

Then back to constipation for up to a week.....

A never ending cycle.........
 

Hip

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Interesting thoughts on this thread. I notice that I have been quoted in a few places on this thread. If you guys would like I shall post my thoughts on the subject of ME/CFS, FM and the Atlas.
Please do post your thoughts, Dr Amir, we will be very interested to hear them. Thank you very much.

It was me that quoted you in this thread; I learnt about your dental appliance treatment methods via this article on how these methods cured Uzma Qureshi of her ME/CFS or ME/CFS-like illness, and found these methods very interesting.
 
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Please do post your thoughts, Dr Amir, we will be very interested to hear them. Thank you very much.

It was me that quoted you in this thread; I learnt about your dental appliance treatment methods via this article on how these methods cured Uzma Qureshi of her ME/CFS or ME/CFS-like illness.
Thank you for having brought that article to every ones attention. It may be of interest for you guys to go through this article also which has just been published this month:

http://www.positivehealth.com/article/letters-to-the-editor/letters-to-the-editor-issue-219
 

Hip

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Thank you for having brought that article to every ones attention. It may be of interest for you guys to go through this article also which has just been published this month:

http://www.positivehealth.com/article/letters-to-the-editor/letters-to-the-editor-issue-219
That is an interesting article.

May I ask, do you see many ME/CFS patients, and if so, how many would you say have jaw misalignment or other jaw problems; and out of those who do have jaw misalignment, how many respond to your treatments?

I ask just to get an idea of the extent of jaw misalignment problems in ME/CFS patients.


Can I also ask, in terms of jaw misalignment causing ME/CFS, are there any obvious manifestations of this misalignment that ME/CFS patients might be able to observe themselves, or does it always require a trained eye?

In my case, I noticed that a few years after I developed ME/CFS, which was around 10 years ago, it seemed as if my lower jaw started to get longer, so that my lower front teeth began grinding into the back of my upper front teeth, as I close my jaw (and are thus gradually wearing away the back of my front teeth).

My own dentist said that this was due to my lower jaw bone growing longer, extending the length of my lower jaw: she said that as people get older (I am 50 now), the lower jaw can keep growing a bit.

However, I am also aware that my masseter muscles seem tight and slightly painful when I press them in certain places, and wonder whether this tightness might somehow be pushing my lower jaw forward.


Anyway, I just wondered if there are any jaw signs or symptoms that ME/CFS patients could check for themselves, to get a rough indication of whether they might have a jaw misalignment problem.



Have you come across Michael VanElzakker's vagus nerve infection hypothesis of ME/CFS by the way? It occurred to me that this might be connected to the remission in symptoms achieved through jaw realignment.

VanElzakker points out that sickness behavior has very similar symptoms to those of ME/CFS, and that sickness behavior can be triggered by messages sent to the brain via the vagus or trigeminal nerves, when these nerves sense infection and inflammation in the body. He hypothesizes that a chronic infection in the vagus nerve could be constantly sending messages to the brain, thereby triggering sickness behavior, thus causing the symptoms of ME/CFS.

If his theory is correct, I wonder whether a trapped or squeezed vagus or trigeminal nerve might also somehow trigger sickness behavior, thus again leading to ME/CFS or ME/CFS-like symptoms.
 

Helen

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For what it´s worth, KDM finds TMJ dysfunction more often among PWME than in an otherwise healthy population. He suspects a connection to a certain infection, but I can´t remember which one. Somebody posted about it recently.
 

Hip

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For what it´s worth, KDM finds TMJ dysfunction more often among PWME than in an otherwise healthy population. He suspects a connection to a certain infection, but I can´t remember which one. Somebody posted about it recently.
Temporomandibular joint disorder is actually a well-known comorbidity of ME/CFS: it was found in this twin study of comorbidities in ME/CFS patients, and TMJ disorder is also one of the comorbidity entities listed in the Canadian Consensus Criteria for ME/CFS.
 
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That is an interesting article.

May I ask, do you see many ME/CFS patients, and if so, how many would you say have jaw misalignment or other jaw problems; and out of those who do have jaw misalignment, how many respond to your treatments?
I ask just to get an idea of the extent of jaw misalignment problems in ME/CFS patients
The extent of jaw misalignment is irrefutable in the hundreds of patients that I have seen in the last 20 years.
Can I also ask, in terms of jaw misalignment causing ME/CFS, are there any obvious manifestations of this misalignment that ME/CFS patients might be able to observe themselves, or does it always require a trained eye?
The most certain finding is that the Lateral Pterygoid muscle is very painful on palpation. This can be found by passing your finger into the cheek beside your upper teeth sliding it up and back. This muscle is nearly ALWAYS extremely painful confirming the presence of a jaw problem
Many other muscles around the mouth like the masseters, the mylohyoids, the temporalis, the sterno mastoid, the trapezius are extremely painful at the point of insertion in the skull - usually one side is more painful than the other..

In my case, I noticed that a few years after I developed ME/CFS, which was around 10 years ago, it seemed as if my lower jaw started to get longer, so that my lower front teeth began grinding into the back of my upper front teeth, as I close my jaw (and are thus gradually wearing away the back of my front teeth).
Is'nt it ironic that your body tells you almost from day one that it is the teeth; it is the jaw!
My own dentist said that this was due to my lower jaw bone growing longer, extending the length of my lower jaw: she said that as people get older (I am 50 now), the lower jaw can keep growing a bit.
However, I am also aware that my masseter muscles seem tight and slightly painful when I press them in certain places, and wonder whether this tightness might somehow be pushing my lower jaw forward.
It is the otherway round the muscles respond to cranio-dental and Atlas asymmetries.
Have you come across Michael VanElzakker's vagus nerve infection hypothesis of ME/CFS by the way? It occurred to me that this might be connected to the remission in symptoms achieved through jaw realignment.
The involvement of the Atlas vertebrae which is asymmetric affects the function of the Vagus on the affected side through physical impingement of the Internal carotid artery, the Internal jugular vein and the Vagus. Remission of symptoms is often hit and miss as the Atlas balances with the jaw in the front. If the jaw is asymmetric the Atlas soon dislocates again in very many patients.
VanElzakker points out that sickness behavior has very similar symptoms to those of ME/CFS, and that sickness behavior can be triggered by messages sent to the brain via the vagus or trigeminal nerves, when these nerves sense infection and inflammation in the body. He hypothesizes that a chronic infection in the vagus nerve could be constantly sending messages to the brain, thereby triggering sickness behavior, thus causing the symptoms of ME/CFS.
I have a different explanation. The messages do scream out from every nerve constantly telling the brain that something is not right. The jaw is out of balance, the neck is out of balance In fact every structure around the skeleton is screaming out that it is asymmetric and cannot function properly.
If his theory is correct, I wonder whether a trapped or squeezed vagus or trigeminal nerve might also somehow trigger sickness behavior, thus again leading to ME/CFS or ME/CFS-like symptoms.
"Sickness behavior" are cool words. Asymmetries need correction not behaviors.
 
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Temporomandibular joint disorder is actually a well-known comorbidity of ME/CFS: it was found in this twin study of comorbidities in ME/CFS patients, and TMJ disorder is also one of the comorbidity entities listed in the Canadian Consensus Criteria for ME/CFS.
I have serious problems with the Canadian Consensus Document which was prepared in 2004. I registered serious reservations in a four page letter to them at the time. Unfortunately it went on to be adopted by every Tom Dick and Harry around the world. It has absolutely no basis for the patients afflicted with these illnesses.
 
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Sushi

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I have serious problems with the Canadian Consensus Document which was prepared in 2004. I registered serious reservations in a four page letter to them at the time. Unfortunately it went on to be adopted by every Tom Dick and Harry around the world. It has absolutely no basis for the patients afflicted with these illnesses.
How about the International Consensus Criteria for Myalgic Encephalomyelitis from 2011? It is an updated document that seems to fit many of us very well.

Sushi
 
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How about the International Consensus Criteria for Myalgic Encephalomyelitis from 2011? It is an updated document that seems to fit many of us very well.

Sushi
Having successfully treated very many patients over the years from a physical point of view leaves little room for accepting any vague hypotheses which make these illnesses into a medico-psycho-social phenomenon and confuses the patients by calling TMJ dysfunction a "co-morbidity".
 

Hip

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"Sickness behavior" are cool words. Asymmetries need correction not behaviors.
Although "sickness behavior" sounds like it might be some awful psychological interpretation of ME/CFS (and nearly everyone on this forum hates psychological theories of ME/CFS, and are always fighting for ME/CFS to be understood as the physiological condition is really is), sickness behavior is actually simply defined as the series of mental and physical symptoms you get when you come down with a bad infection like the flu. It is not some "psychobabble" concept.

Sickness behavior is considered to be an in-built adaptive response to dealing with an infection (eg: you are made to feel fatigue because you need to rest so that you can overcome the infection). Michael VanElzakker's theory is than in ME/CFS, the sickness response gets permanently turned on because of messages from the vagus, so that the fatigue etc is never ending.

I have a different explanation. The messages do scream out from every nerve constantly telling the brain that something is not right. The jaw is out of balance, the neck is out of balance In fact every structure around the skeleton is screaming out that it is asymmetric and cannot function properly.
I appreciate what you are saying about misaligned anatomy affecting bodily function, and clearly from the successes you have had in treating patients, your theory and method hold water.

However, ME/CFS symptoms are highly specific (ME/CFS is a lot more than just fatigue), so there needs to be an explanation of how these specific symptoms arise. The vagus nerve hypothesis provides such an explanation.

I have serious problems with the Canadian Consensus Document which was prepared in 2004. I registered serious reservations in a four page letter to them at the time.
What are your basic objections to the CCC? The Canadian Consensus Criteria are considered one of the best, far better than the notoriously bad Oxford Criteria, which are so vague and sloppy that they tend to select for depressed patients as well as ME/CFS patients. This means that when you do studies using the Oxford Criteria, your cohort has depressed patients in it as well as ME/CFS patients, so results from such studies cannot be relied on.

Having successfully treated very many patients over the years from a physical point of view leaves little room for accepting any vague hypotheses which make these illnesses into a medico-psycho-social phenomenon and confuses the patients by calling TMJ dysfunction a "co-morbidity".
As mentioned, almost everybody on this forum deplores psycho-social, psychogenic or psychosomatic theories of ME/CFS, so we are definitely in agreement there. Pretty much everyone here sees ME/CFS as a physical disease with a physical cause.

I am not sure why you are suggesting there is something is wrong with calling TMJ dysfunction a comorbidity of ME/CFS though. Is it perhaps because you view TMJ dysfunction as the causal basis of ME/CFS?

There are lots of comorbid conditions in ME/CFS, such as: irritable bowel syndrome, interstitial cystitis and overactive bladder (irritable bladder), chronic pelvic pain syndrome (prostatitis), endometriosis, Raynaud’s disease, multiple chemical sensitivity, temporomandibular joint disorder, myofascial pain syndrome, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, depression, generalized anxiety disorder, eating disorders, Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, prolapsed mitral valve, Sjögren's syndrome (sicca syndrome), postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), and neurally mediated hypotension.
 
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Sushi

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I have a different explanation. The messages do scream out from every nerve constantly telling the brain that something is not right. The jaw is out of balance, the neck is out of balance In fact every structure around the skeleton is screaming out that it is asymmetric and cannot function properly.
This can certainly be true, but does not all the manifestations of ME. I have had a lot of structural work done including Atlas Profilax, ongoing treatment for TMJ and monthly care from an osteopath who specializes in neurology. This has been very helpful for structural issues but has not had any effect on my primary ME symptoms.

Sushi
 
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As mentioned, almost everybody on this forum deplores psycho-social, psychogenic or psychosomatic theories of ME/CFS, so we are definitely in agreement there.

I am not sure why you are suggesting there is something is wrong with calling TMJ dysfunction a "co-morbidity" though. Is it perhaps because you view TMJ dysfunction as the causal basis of ME/CFS?
You raise some important points. You must have seen a graphical representation of patient improvement. We have patients with over 40 symptoms which soon start resolving. I have a great deal of such evidence. If such evidence does not convince anyone than I cannot help them. Almost all the symptoms can be explained neurologically and anatomically.

I do not need to classify those who seek my help into which bit of the criteria they fit in the Oxford criteria, or the CCD or any other classification. These are exercises more for medics and psychiatrists. I have little patience for that having spent years studying, half believing and finally rejecting these notions totally.
 
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