Lowering LPS in the context of leaky gut

[cristi_b]

cristi_b said that her problems with gut and liver improve significantly for her with zink, so there is a pathogenesis which responds good to zink, so it indeed works for her.

It's the 2nd time on this forum I have to mention that I am a man I think I've chosen un unfortunate forum name as a lot of people assume "Cristi" is a woman's name. It's actually short for "Cristian" in my native language which is romanian.

 

[cristi_b]

Errmm sorry but it doesn't work like that. All the ideas on Increased Digestive Permeability Syndrome aka " Leaky Gut" are incorrect and just plain wrong. It's not a normal condition because it is caused by pathogenic bacteria and it is a biofilm which replaces the normal digestive mucosa which causes the permeability and "leakiness" of the digestive system and high levels of LPS. That is another thing that the medical profession does not understand about the human body.

I agree that there is some pathogen or group of pathogens in my gut that is creating the problem. I thought I can solve gut permeability but it just doesn't work like that, now whenever I try to take supplements involving repairing the gut lining my allergies get worse. It looks like the pathogen(s) are responding with releasing more toxins that my body cannot clear: I get runny nose, sneezing, coughing and head aches. For example I bought Zinc Carnosine since I had such a good response from Zinc (it is marketed as helping with the gut lining) but same thing happens: my allergies are becoming worse! Whatever pathogen or combination of pathogens is in my gut, it is a very powerful and stable combination, reacting immediately when I try to improve my gut lining.

It's very simple, destroy the pathogens and the problems all disappear.

If I only knew what the pathogen was! I wish I knew even if it's not easy to get rid off, even if it turns out to be fatal, I would still like to know what causes so many problems for me.

Hopefully the stool microbiome test I ordered from Unseen Bio will provide some insight. I'm told their test is not good for diagnosing issues, as it's used only for food recommendations, but they also give you the raw data(the names of all the bacteria they find) and I'm hoping there's something very visible in there.

 

[cristi_b]

I mentioned I'm trying Melatonin, but today I asked perplexity if all studies found Melatonin beneficial for the gut and it spit out a study that found the opposite:
The Microbiota-Dependent Worsening Effects of Melatonin on Gut Inflammation

The hormone melatonin (MLT) has been raised as a therapeutic alternative because of its known interactions with immune responses and gut microbiota. Hence, we evaluated the effects of MLT in experimental colitis that evolves with intestinal dysbiosis, inflammation and bacterial translocation. C57BL/6 mice were exposed to dextran sulfate sodium and treated with MLT. In acute colitis, the hormone led to increased clinical, systemic and intestinal inflammatory parameters. During remission, continued MLT administration delayed recovery, increased TNF, memory effector lymphocytes and diminished spleen regulatory cells.

If you decide to try Melatonin yourself please mind that it can have the complete opposite effect in some cases.

 

[linusbert]

It's the 2nd time on this forum I have to mention that I am a man I think I've chosen un unfortunate forum name as a lot of people assume "Cristi" is a woman's name. It's actually short for "Cristian" in my native language which is romanian.

my bad, apologies. if i was the other time in this forum too, shame on me.
though i know that feeling, because offline i got the nickname chrissi for a while, and that was confusing too, especially i had a female friend Christina which nicknamed chrissi too...

 

[cristi_b]

No worries, I probably should have chosen a better username

 

[cristi_b]

On an other note: in the off chance my microbiome results are not clear/visible on what pathogen is causing problems, does anyone know a good service to analyze the raw data? There are a lot of services analyzing DNA data(Genetic genie etc) but I can't seem to find something similar for gut microbiome data. Otherwise going through 1000+ microbes(to see which one is pathogenic or creates problems) is going to be very tedious.

 

[cristi_b]

Found some information that is relevant to gut permeability. I knew from past experiences that dark chocolate had a positive impact on my gut(as I had less diarrhea while taking it) so I asked perplexity about it and gave me a recent study that looked into that:

Dark Chocolate Intake Positively Modulates Gut Permeability in Elite Football Athletes

Biomarkers of intestinal permeability, such as circulating levels of zonulin, a modulator of tight junctions, occludin, a tight junction protein, and LPS translocation, were evaluated in 24 elite football players and 23 amateur athletes. Moreover, 24 elite football players were randomly assigned to either a dark chocolate (>85% cocoa) intake (n = 12) or a control group (n = 12) for 30 days in a randomized controlled trial. Biochemical analyses were performed at baseline and after 30 days of chocolate intake. Compared to amateur athletes, elite football players showed increased intestinal permeability as indicated by higher levels of zonulin, occludin, and LPS. After 30 days of dark chocolate intake, decreased intestinal permeability was found in elite athletes consuming dark chocolate.

It would be interesting to see the effect of Melatonin + Dark Chocolate, I might try that in the future.

 

[cristi_b]

Still waiting for my stool microbiome results and hopeful from some insight into why I have so many problems.

Meantime I had an epiphany: I am convinced P Gingivalis is part of the mix of pathogens that are creating my symptoms. This microbe starts in the mouth(I already know a have a lot of it in my mouth based on my oral microbiome done by Nebula Genomics) and can end up in the gut where it causes problems. It seems to tick a lot of boxes and while looking at the list of supplements I tried, they all seem to fit. Just to name a few of them:
- vitamin D attacks it: I have low vitamin D and whenever I try to take some I get a lot of symptoms which I attribute now to Herxheimer reaction
- HN019 attacks it: I get very bad symptoms when I take this probiotic, similar to vitamin D but stronger(also now I think it's a Herxheimer reaction)
- Resveratrol, DHA, Melatonin, Oregano/Carvacrol, EGCg, Boswellia, Chitosan all have proven effects against P Gingivalis and/or gingipain produced by this microbe: these all helped with some of the symptoms

Other coincidences related to P Gingivalis:
- it usually induces cholesterol problems and I do have issues with cholesterol even though I avoid fats in my diet
- had problems with teeth and gums, it's the usual spot where P Gingivalis starts
- gingipain produced by this pathogen degrades cytokines, I actually tested a lot of cytokines in my blood and they were not above the laboratory limit even though I get a lot of crazy problems with inflammation and allergies
- can lead to memory problems(even Alzheimer) if it reaches the brain: had trouble remembering names of people
- it produces Ammonia: I have higher blood ammonia
- The bacterium's lipopolysaccharides (LPS) can trigger inflammatory pathways that lead to increased cytokine production, which may subsequently elevate calprotectin levels in the gut: I have high calprotectin

This are just a few of the stuff I came across that seemed to fit with my condition, if the microbiome test will confirm a larger load of P Gingivalis in my gut I will spend more time to explain the stuff I found but for now I don't have a lot of time to go through everything.

 

[linusbert]

what i can say about gut microbiome from my experience, when i take something with garlic compounds my stool is getting better.
so one caps of lipothiamine/allithiamine or garlic extract.

 

[cristi_b]

My microbiome results from UNSEEN Bio have arrived. They did not find P Gingivalis in my sample, which is a big surprise for me, as I thought this is one of the pathogens that are creating my problems. I know I have it in my mouth, as the oral microbiome results show, but I really thought it has spread to the gut. I think that the stool microbiome covers just the colon and it's still possible to have a proliferation of P Gingivalis in the small intestine.

Anyway, from their standard report:

1) 6 out of 19 beneficial species are not found in my sample. A big one is Akkermansia muciniphila, which research says it's pretty important to have. The other missing species are: Blautia producta, Adlercreutzia equolifaciens, Methanobrevibacter smithii, Christensenella minuta, Bifidobacterium adolescentis

2) I have 2 non-beneficial species: Klebsiella oxytoca(other people don't usually have this one, can lead to infections) and Parvimonas micra

3) They find no harmful microbes, but their report checks only 12 of them(my guess is there are a lot more harmful microbes beyond the 12 they check)

4) They didn't find any fungi in my sample. This means I'm missing Saccharomyces cerevisiae and I know this one is beneficial to have. I would seem that my efforts to eliminate C. Albicanis with antifungals has killed all fungi in my gut.

5) 24 out of 30 probiotic microbes they check are not detected in my sample: Alkalihalobacillus clausii, Bacillus licheniformis, Bacillus subtilis, Bifidobacterium lactis, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus brevis, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus crispatus, Lactobacillus fermentum, Lactobacillus gasseri, Lactobacillus helveticus, Lactobacillus jensenii, Lactobacillus kefir, Lactobacillus paracasei, Lactobacillus plantarum, Lactobacillus reuteri, Lactobacillus rhamnosus, Lactococcus lactis, Metabacillus indicus, Pediococcus acidilactici, Pediococcus pentosaceus, Streptococcus thermophilus, Weizmannia coagulans. Few of these probiotics I've actually supplemented for a while(L. Plantarum and L. Rhamnosus) but I'm guessing they did not like the enviroment in my gut and so did not take residence

6) The diversity of the microbiome is within normal range which is a big surprise for me as my diet is pretty restrictive and repetitive. The richness is 1218, evenness is 0.61 and alpha diversity is 26(they actually mention that this is lower than average but still in reference range). Based on these data points they assign a biodiversity score of 76, which is in green teritory so not bad at all, considering my poor diet.

So apart from the missing Akkermansia muciniphila nothing stands out as a possible source of my issues. I'm still looking for a service to check the raw data and provide more info(beyound the basic report from the UNSEEN BIO company) so please share if you know of such a service, even if it's a costly one. Otherwise I have to check by hand all 1218 species to see which ones might create issues for me.

 

[Carl]

Ammonia is produced by Urease positive bacteria apart from what is produced by normal body metabolism. The best known bacteria is H. pylori. The Urease enzyme converts Urea into ammonia and carbon dioxide. BTW ammonia has a high pH which means it is very alkaline. Ammonia can stop the stomach producing an acid environment to break down food in the stomach. People take HCL capsules not realising that the acid can be neutralised by ammonia. This is extremely common in the population and H. Pylori is frequently not involved.

 

[Carl]

I agree that there is some pathogen or group of pathogens in my gut that is creating the problem. I thought I can solve gut permeability but it just doesn't work like that, now whenever I try to take supplements involving repairing the gut lining my allergies get worse. It looks like the pathogen(s) are responding with releasing more toxins that my body cannot clear: I get runny nose, sneezing, coughing and head aches. For example I bought Zinc Carnosine since I had such a good response from Zinc (it is marketed as helping with the gut lining) but same thing happens: my allergies are becoming worse! Whatever pathogen or combination of pathogens is in my gut, it is a very powerful and stable combination, reacting immediately when I try to improve my gut lining.


If I only knew what the pathogen was! I wish I knew even if it's not easy to get rid off, even if it turns out to be fatal, I would still like to know what causes so many problems for me.

Hopefully the stool microbiome test I ordered from Unseen Bio will provide some insight. I'm told their test is not good for diagnosing issues, as it's used only for food recommendations, but they also give you the raw data(the names of all the bacteria they find) and I'm hoping there's something very visible in there.

A tip: The problem isn't in your colon. If only the medical profession knew how the human digestive system worked. I worked this out in 2014 and how it all fits together with tissue destruction in the pituitary and hypothalamus. The Increased Digestive Permeability is all tied to these infections and also high levels of LPS and the inflammation that they create. That is in addition to the inflammation created by the immune system reacting to food because of the "Leaky Gut".

 

[cristi_b]

Ammonia is produced by Urease positive bacteria apart from what is produced by normal body metabolism. The best known bacteria is H. pylori. The Urease enzyme converts Urea into ammonia and carbon dioxide.

Thanks for the tip, but I actually tested H Pylori several times: antibody tests, antigen tests and Urea Breath Test. All negative. The only test for H Pylori that I have not done is: endoscopy with biopsy.

I'm not sure about the quantity(how prolific it is) but according to Perplexity, P Gingivalis is capable of producing ammonia:

Porphyromonas gingivalis can generate ammonia, primarily through the metabolism of amino acids. While most studies focus on its activity in the oral cavity, its ability to produce ammonia could potentially occur in the gut if it colonizes there.

1. Mechanism of Ammonia Production:
   P. gingivalis ferments amino acids into ammonia and weak acids like butyric acid, especially under acidic conditions, as a survival strategy3. This process helps it overcome pH stress by creating a more alkaline environment.

I'm still reluctant to give up on the P. Gingivalis theory given my reaction to so many supplements and also various clues in my blood tests. I think I'm going to try solutions for P Gingivalis in my mouth and see what I observe. For example I have bought special toothpaste containing Pomegranates and Neem, a mouthwash with Chlorhexidine(known to be effective against P Gingivalis) and also some cough lozenges containing Chlorhexidine(in the off chance that it has colonized downstream of the oral cavity).

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Had to stop Sodium Butyrate:

Can you tolerate eating beans?

I basically eat very very well cooked black beans almost daily. This seems to have improved my digestion and butyrate levels.

I also mean very well cooked. Beans in a can are sometimes not cooked long enough. We now use a pressure cooker. Then they may get cooked a few more times after that.

 

[cristi_b]

Can you tolerate eating beans?

I don't eat beans. I have enough issues with flatulence as it is and could not tolerate any more gas out the other end

 

[cristi_b]

I'm looking over the raw data from the microbiome and it's very difficult to discern where the issues come from. I had the idea to compare the relative abundance against data for healthy europeans(UNSEEN Bio provides these data points). Basically I'm trying to look over bacteria that are more than the upper limit and ask perplexity about them. I'm limited though by the daily quota for Perplexity Pro(I cannot ask too many questions daily).

So far I've went through some of the microbes that appear in my sample way more than for healthy europeans: I've checked with Perplexity 17 microbes from the 319 that are outside of limits. These 319 microbes are in 4 classes:
- some are never in the gut of healthy europeans: 62 microbes
- some are in the gut of healthy europeans, but not in median(less than 50% of healthy people have it) and I have more than the upper limit: 126 microbes
- some are in the gut of healthy europeans, I have more than upper limit and median: 102 microbes
- in the gut of health europeans, but I have less than the lower limit and median: 29 microbes

This is the answer of perplexity for the first batch of 17 microbes:

Among the listed species, some may have detrimental effects on the gut under certain conditions, while others are neutral or potentially beneficial. Here's an analysis of their roles:

Potentially Detrimental Species​

1. Desulfovibrio piger(I have 61.7x upper limit of healthy europeans):
   • Known for producing hydrogen sulfide (H₂S), which can be toxic to intestinal epithelial cells and impair gut barrier function. Excessive H₂S production is associated with inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) and other gut disorders34.
2. Bifidobacterium dentium(I have 80x upper limit of healthy europeans):
   • While many Bifidobacterium species are beneficial, B. dentium is associated with dental caries and may contribute to opportunistic infections in the gut under dysbiotic conditions5.
3. Prevotella sp900317685(I have 16.9x upper limit of healthy europeans):
   • Some Prevotella species are linked to inflammatory conditions, including IBD and rheumatoid arthritis, due to their pro-inflammatory properties and association with dysbiosis45.
4. Negativibacillus massiliensis(I have 32x upper limit of healthy europeans):
   • Limited information is available, but its presence in dysbiotic microbiomes suggests it may contribute to gut imbalance or inflammation under certain conditions5.

For the others perplexity says they are: potentially neutral / beneficial species or there is no information about them.