Lowering LPS in the context of leaky gut

[godlovesatrier]

It is available commercially. Biolab sell it. It's expensive though.

Amy proal takes NAC it's one of the biofilm busters that got her back to health.

 

[Carl]

NAC makes many sufferers worse because of the biofilm degradation. However NAC can help to raise Glutathione production which is a benefit.

NAC alone will not make much difference IMO because it is not strong enough to make a significant difference when taken alone. The numbers I have are around 40%. Every bit helps. Bowellic acid is better at around 50% and both work well together. There are supplementary enzyme formulations which target biofilms and those can do a better job. Quorum Sensing Inhibitors help a lot by stopping pathogenic communication within a biofilm which helps stop them from signalling to rebuild the biofilm when it is being degraded.

 

[cristi_b]

NAC makes many sufferers worse because of the biofilm degradation.

I am beginning to see that, as I upped the dose to 300mg per meal(900 mg per day with 3 meals) I am starting to see a resurrection of allergies: sneezing, inflamed throat, rashes on my skin and also my concentration(like in solving sudoku puzzles) is going down and lots of memory issues. This just confirms that my problems are related to LPS.

NAC alone will not make much difference IMO

Yes, off course, together with NAC I have began taking Bacteriophages/prebiotics/probiotics, garlic, propolis, ginger. As I have not done a stool microbiome test, I tried to tackle the most common bugs in the gut:
a) for E. Coli I used Dr. Tobias prebiotics which has viruses specifically targeted to lyse this pathogen: LH01, LL5, T4D, LL12
b) for P Mirabilis: garlic, propolis, ginger with each meal
c) for C. Difficile I added Bio-Kult Mind which has the probiotic Bacillus Subtilis strain PXN21 because: it produces bacteriocins and subtilisin. Bacteriocins help control other microbes and subtilisin has been shown to raise IL-10, a anti-inflammatory cytokine, accourding to this study and this other study. I have chosen PXN21 strain as it also helps control alpha-synuclein generated by E. Coli and P. Mirabilis(source).

Both Dr. Tobias Prebiotics and Bio-Kult Mind produced fatigue/tiredness when starting which would indicate a Herxheimer reaction.
From what I gather EGCG + Fisetin + Honokiol + CurcuminePiperine was not enough to counter the effects of more LPS in the bloodstream(resulted from killing bacteria) as I had more cognitive difficulties since starting this regimen. It's possible I did not take enough dosages.

 

[cristi_b]

While searching through studies I came across an other possibility for inflammation in the gut: excess propionic acid from propionic acid producing bacteria. Though beneficial in small quantities the propionic acid can cause bacteria like E. Coli to attach to the gut(ref), so I'm thinking it could lead to leaky gut and allow more LPS to reach the blood stream.

Right now I am taking some Biotin, which is involved in the metabolism of propionic acid through the PCC enzyme, to see if I notice a difference. So far my gut seems worse, but it might be a coincidence after just one 1 day.

An other thing I could do is take a Sodium Propionate supplement to see if my symptoms get worse. If I have high levels of propionate, an additional quantity would cause more issues.

 

[cristi_b]

After a few more days it is safe to say that my experiments with Biotin have made my problems worse: my stool is worse and cognitive problems are worse(they are starting to resemble the initial symptoms of my father which is diagnosed with dementia). I think I might have metabolized all propionic acid in my gut(as I said above small amounts are beneficial/needed) and changed into an even more inflammatory state which off course means more LPS in the blood stream. I am stopping the Biotin for now. Sadly I don't have a Sodium Propionate supplement to reverse what I have done.

@linusbert was telling my about the TUDCA supplement. After more reading I decided to order some as I have found a study that is relevant to gut permeability and LPS(ref):

Hu and colleagues [26] found that high levels of cholesterol in the LD significantly increased intestinal permeability, leading to excessive LPS (lipopolysaccharide) into the blood, resulting in increased Tnfα expression, cholesterol accumulation and liver damage. We found significantly decreased expression of Tnfα in the liver of the TUDCA group, and the liver damage was alleviated in the general and RNA levels, indicating that the LPS was reduced in blood.

 

[linusbert]

After a few more days it is safe to say that my experiments with Biotin have made my problems worse: my stool is worse and cognitive problems are worse(they are starting to resemble the initial symptoms of my father which is diagnosed with dementia).

this is not unknown effect, Chris Masterjohn had it in his blog about this in his self experiment. He did high dose biotin and he noticed a increase in forgetfulness like walking in a room and forgetting why he went into it. it stopped after a few days of stopping to supplement it.
he also had increased lactate levels during this. sadly i dont know the exact article anymore. there was a solution to this.
i am not sure if it was b2.
i think it was this article: https://chrismasterjohnphd.substack.com/p/the-dark-side-of-biotin

Sadly I don't have a Sodium Propionate supplement to reverse what I have done.

another direct player to biotin is b5. but better stop for a while until things get normal again.

btw, with TUDCA also comes taurine, because TUDCA = UDCA + bound to Taurine. there is also a UDCA with similiar effects.

 

[linusbert]

https://chrismasterjohnphd.substack.com/p/h2s-clearance-and-gut-health
that i read today about h2s wreaking havoc in the system. q10 deficiency can contribute to it.

 

[cristi_b]

https://chrismasterjohnphd.substack.com/p/h2s-clearance-and-gut-health
that i read today about h2s wreaking havoc in the system. q10 deficiency can contribute to it.

That site is a gem of information, I am really glad you posted it yesterday. I didn't know Chris Masterjohn but he really knows his stuff. I was looking for information on D-Lactate for some time now, as it was a possibility for my cognitive issues and read his posting about it that explains a lot including the link to Q10.

Now I have tried Q10 in the past, back in 2010 when I took some by chance. I remember that it made my skin more prone to inflammation(I get really bad rashes from flee bites that turn into dark violet bruises and it made it worse). At that time I was not that meticulous in observing the effects of a supplement and I'm hoping I made a mistake and so I ordered it to try again. Hoping it makes a difference in any of my problems.

As a side note: I think that I'm reaching 5000 euros spent on lab tests and supplements/vitamins I have ordered for myself(without a doctor's recommendation) and this is just in the last 2 years. It's beginning to take a toll on me as I have not been working for several years. The sum might not seem big for developed countries, but over here people raise an eyebrow when I mention it.

 

[linusbert]

yea he got a phd in nutritional sciences and does lessons on universities. so he definitely is up to bio chemistry and the science and he is patient himself.

As a side note: I think that I'm reaching 5000 euros spent on lab tests and supplements/vitamins

definitely same, and of those ~5000 , i have 2000 or more of supplements i didnt even try and threw out the bottle after EXP. the problem is i need to be in good health to try something new. often i order when i am in good health, but then it gots worse and i never try :'(

somewhere else i read about q10 that its like the ignition spark which keeps the energy machinery pumping. but if you have somewhere unresolved deficiencies besides q10 or other problems, its like if the car motor has a problem, the sparks will fly if you kick down the gas pedal

 

[cristi_b]

Update:
After starting Q10 I have began to experience a lot of nose and throat inflammation. I got no rashes like in 2010(last time I tried it) but it's clear it's making inflammation worse. From what I find Q10 is suppose to help with LPS damage as can be seen in this study, so I don't know what to make of this result.

I also tried Mucuna Pruriens(contains L-DOPA) as I thought it would help with cognition issues. After just one pill the inflammation in my throat and nose got even worse, I had trouble breathing. Today I desperately tried to find any information about these 2 supplements and why they would make my allergies worse. I only found out that L-DOPA and Q10 are given together to P.D. patients in order to increase dopamine. It makes no sense and I am starting to think I will never figure out what is going on.

 

[Mick]

4) Curcumin 500mg + Piperine twice daily: somewhat effective as I seem to not be so absent minded, also my eyesight has improved since using this supplement. Curcumin is proven to have antagonist activity on TLR4 receptors(source). It's possible I need to take more than 2x500mg daily, but I haven't tryed that as the Piperine would cause more Iron to be absorbed and I have already too much Iron in my blood.

Good thread you have going here. The problem is that piperine increases gut permeability. Some people say that it wreaks havoc on the gut. I can't take it anyway - I am allergic to anything that is pepper-related so I take C3 curcumin.

 

[linusbert]

Update:
After starting Q10 I have began to experience a lot of nose and throat inflammation. I got no rashes like in 2010(last time I tried it) but it's clear it's making inflammation worse. From what I find Q10 is suppose to help with LPS damage as can be seen in this study, so I don't know what to make of this result.

I also tried Mucuna Pruriens(contains L-DOPA) as I thought it would help with cognition issues. After just one pill the inflammation in my throat and nose got even worse, I had trouble breathing. Today I desperately tried to find any information about these 2 supplements and why they would make my allergies worse. I only found out that L-DOPA and Q10 are given together to P.D. patients in order to increase dopamine. It makes no sense and I am starting to think I will never figure out what is going on.

maybe its your form for q10, there are a lot of formulations with tons of stuff. fats. glycerine etc.
maybe you react to those. happend me before, not with q10 though.
maybe get a pure q10 poweder.
there are q10 and ubiquinol , different forms too.

also q10 is the foot on the gas pedal, it drives the electronic chain and metabolism .. so if anything unresolved upstream, it mayb cause problems.

 

[Byles]

Good thread you have going here. The problem is that piperine increases gut permeability. Some people say that it wreaks havoc on the gut. I can't take it anyway - I am allergic to anything that is pepper-related so I take C3 curcumin.

William Davis (Super gut) recommends using curcumin that doesn'thave additives for bioavailability, so it remains in the gut as long as possible and does it's work there and not elsewhere in the body.

 

[cristi_b]

The problem is that piperine increases gut permeability.

Thanks, I did not know piperine was bad for gut permeability. I will also try to completely avoid black pepper in my diet: I was unpleasantly surprised that the canned pork product I was buying was more spicy to the taste, when I checked the labeling they included black pepper. This could have contributed to my recent allergy flareup: black pepper(containing piperine) lead to more gut permeability, which lead to more LPS in the blood stream, which caused more cognitive issues and allergies.

William Davis (Super gut) recommends using curcumin that doesn'thave additives for bioavailability, so it remains in the gut as long as possible and does it's work there and not elsewhere in the body.

This maybe explains why I felt better when I took simple curcumin(without the piperine). Once I finished the bottle and got Curcumin+Piperine the result was not the same. It was suppose to help with absorption, but as you point out, you might need the effect mainly in the gut, so absorption is really not needed. On top of that piperine(as @Mick said) is detrimental to gut lining.

maybe its your form for q10, there are a lot of formulations with tons of stuff. fats. glycerine etc.
maybe you react to those.

Just like I was saying for all the vitamin D variants I tried, the problem for me doesn't appear to be the fillers. The variant of Q10 pills I tried is based on Saccharomyces Cerevisiae with 98% concentration of Q10. And it's the 2nd variant I try which leads to problems for me(1st was back in 2010). It's something else downstream of Q10.

PS: And on that note, I may have found some information regarding Dopamine and the immune system. So Q10 and Mucuna Pruriens, through their effect on dopamine levels, might affect inflammation. But I need to read more on this before I come to a conclusion. I will also retest my Q10 and Mucuna reaction after I get rid of all black pepper in my diet.

 

[cristi_b]

Also, if someone needs a cheap solution to improve gut permeability, Zinc is great. I believe that's why it got rid of my liver pain: it is involved in repairing the gut lining but also helps the liver cope with LPS.

 

[linusbert]

This could have contributed to my recent allergy flareup: black pepper(containing piperine) lead to more gut permeability,

black pepper is very rich in salicylate, which can induce allergy like symptoms.
if someone is salicylate intolerant , aspirin would cause the same problems, as aspirin is high dose salicylate.

Saccharomyces Cerevisiae

this alone i could imagine causing lots of problems if folks are sensitive to pre/probiotics. isnt this fungues?

Also, if someone needs a cheap solution to improve gut permeability, Zinc is great. I believe that's why it got rid of my liver pain: it is involved in repairing the gut lining but also helps the liver cope with LPS.

good to know, thank you!

 

[cristi_b]

Update: did not manage to make any progress with my condition.

Now I'm looking for a microbiome test that would check for as many bacteria as possible. From what I see the most complete technology is "NGS(Next Generation Sequencing)", while "Shotgun NGS" would be the next best thing.

I'm also trying to read up on co-infections that would cause my problems, since no single bacteria seems to fit what is going on with me. With the help of perplexity I came across E. Coli + toxin producing B. Fragillis combination which seems to hit more markers that either one alone.

 

[cristi_b]

Finally managed to ship a microbiome sample to UNSEEN Bio(previous 2 times I tried to send it got lost in the mail), they said results might come out at the end of the month.

Lately I've been experimenting with Melatonin as a gut anti-oxidant as I found some studies about:

Melatonin Prevents Thioacetamide–Induced Gut Leakiness ​

Melatonin as a Mediator of the Gut Microbiota–Host Interaction​

Although colitis/IBD can be triggered by sleep deprivation, melatonin has been proven to alleviate abdominal pain in irritable bowel syndrome patients independently of its actions on sleep. Whether these effects of melatonin are mediated by its actions on the gut microbiota composition or other aspects of metabolism is a quite recently opened field of research.

 

[Carl]

Also, if someone needs a cheap solution to improve gut permeability, Zinc is great. I believe that's why it got rid of my liver pain: it is involved in repairing the gut lining but also helps the liver cope with LPS.

Errmm sorry but it doesn't work like that. All the ideas on Increased Digestive Permeability Syndrome aka " Leaky Gut" are incorrect and just plain wrong. It's not a normal condition because it is caused by pathogenic bacteria and it is a biofilm which replaces the normal digestive mucosa which causes the permeability and "leakiness" of the digestive system and high levels of LPS. That is another thing that the medical profession does not understand about the human body.

It's very simple, destroy the pathogens and the problems all disappear. It's the same for all human diseases. However the drug companies are spreading untruths to hide these facts, instead they sell profitable obesity treatments and lots of very poor treatments for many different illnesses which have not hope of success.

If it wasn't for Lyme disease I would of been free of it long ago but so far I haven't even managed to get a reliable Lyme disease test, after 10 years. An utterly hopeless NHS and their lousy testing and even worse GP's who refuse to provide any treatment or testing. An absolute disgrace and it's no wonder some people go off and purchase antibiotics online in order to self treat. If you don't even know the bacteria then a person cannot even do that. BTW ME has nothing to do with viruses.

 

[linusbert]

Errmm sorry but it doesn't work like that. All the ideas on Increased Digestive Permeability Syndrome aka " Leaky Gut" are incorrect and just plain wrong. It's not a normal condition because it is caused by pathogenic bacteria and it is a biofilm which replaces the normal digestive mucosa which causes the permeability and "leakiness" of the digestive system and high levels of LPS. That is another thing that the medical profession does not understand about the human body.

It's very simple, destroy the pathogens and the problems all disappear. It's the same for all human diseases. However the drug companies are spreading untruths to hide these facts, instead they sell profitable obesity treatments and lots of very poor treatments for many different illnesses which have not hope of success.

If it wasn't for Lyme disease I would of been free of it long ago but so far I haven't even managed to get a reliable Lyme disease test, after 10 years. An utterly hopeless NHS and their lousy testing and even worse GP's who refuse to provide any treatment or testing. An absolute disgrace and it's no wonder some people go off and purchase antibiotics online in order to self treat. If you don't even know the bacteria then a person cannot even do that. BTW ME has nothing to do with viruses.

pathogens arent the cause of all disease. there can be this and be that. also toxins and environmental pollution are big factor among others.
cristi_b said that her problems with gut and liver improve significantly for her with zink, so there is a pathogenesis which responds good to zink, so it indeed works for her. and might for others. but might not for everyone.
and yes for many others biofilms or fungi are the problem instead.