Low Iodine but T3, T4 and Reverse T3 all okay

[Jigsaw]

Hi @Gondwanaland

It is a hormonal cascade of which I don't really master the details... It involves thyroid and vit B6 and vit D depletion I guess..

I will have to investigate further. I can't think of how too much selenium would increase insulin resistance even with hypothyroid. Nothing works optimally with low thyroid. I'm T3'd, P5P'd and Vit D'd up to the eyeballs anyway, but I would still like to understand how too much selenium in relation to T4/T3, B6 and D3 levels affects insulin sensitivity.

Thyroid hormones and progesterone gang up and kill estrogen (accelerate its breakdown)

Thyroid hormone picks up oestrogen and attaches it to SHBG. SHBG then transports the attached oestrogen around the body and it is put to work in a useful way, performing any or several of many different functions at different sites in the body. I am not aware of thyroid hormones, either T4 or T3 (nor any of the other minor ones) actually destroying oestrogen. (Which isn't to say that this doesn't happen, only that it isn't something I'm yet aware of )


If there isn't enough thyroid hormone to attach the oestrogen on to the SHBG protein, then the free oestrogen gets dumped by default into breast tissue, where it can then cause oestrogen breast cancer over time as it accumulates. The link between hypothyroidism and oestrogen breast cancer is widely documented.


Other excess oestrogen is regarded as dangerous enough to be stored more safely away in fat cells, to keep it away from the system and prevent it from causing harm. This is exploited in farming, where cows and chickens are fed oestrogen to fatten them up and generate a higher market value.


Can you point me towards any studies that evidence thyroid hormone destroying oestrogen, please?


Ditto re: progesterone destroying oestrogen. I would welcome any studies, etc, that you can direct me to about this.


Progesterone and oestrogen work together, and the balance between them is crucial to our health.


Because the balance is so important, the presence of progrsterone stimulates oestrogen receptors to pick up more oestrogen, and the presence of oestrogen stimulates progesterone receptors to pick up more progesterone.


Is it the effect that progesterone has on making oestrogen receptors pick up more oestrogen that you are mentioning here, or is there another mechanism that I need to understand?

 

[Gondwanaland]

will have to investigate further. I can't think of how too much selenium would increase insulin resistance even with hypothyroid. Nothing works optimally with low thyroid. I'm T3'd, P5P'd and Vit D'd up to the eyeballs anyway, but I would still like to understand how too much selenium in relation to T4/T3, B6 and D3 levels affects insulin sensitivity.

There is research concluding that selenium supplementation can have adverse outcomes (obviously in the research context it wasn't supplemented with the relevant co-factors. Sorry I don't have the link right now.

Thyroid hormone picks up oestrogen and attaches it to SHBG. SHBG then transports the attached oestrogen around the body and it is put to work in a useful way, performing any or several of many different functions at different sites in the body.

Thank you for the explanation, so it can lead to estrogen depletion if it is low, interesting.

If there isn't enough thyroid hormone to attach the oestrogen on to the SHBG protein, then the free oestrogen gets dumped by default into breast tissue, where it can then cause oestrogen breast cancer over time as it accumulates. The link between hypothyroidism and oestrogen breast cancer is widely documented.

Perhaps this is why my body refuses to produce estrogen, because my thyroid is damaged from autoimmunity?

Other excess oestrogen is regarded as dangerous enough to be stored more safely away in fat cells, to keep it away from the system and prevent it from causing harm. This is exploited in farming, where cows and chickens are fed oestrogen to fatten them up and generate a higher market value.

Or because I do not have fat cells?

the presence of progrsterone stimulates oestrogen receptors to pick up more oestrogen

Perhaps this is why progesterone hurts me so much, it also depletes estrogen which I don't have.

Is it the effect that progesterone has on making oestrogen receptors pick up more oestrogen that you are mentioning here, or is there another mechanism that I need to understand?

Thank you so much for those explanations, now I understand it better and don't see thyroid hormones and progesterone as evils to be avoided. But in my case estrogen must come first so I can tolerate the other ones.

 

[Jigsaw]

Hi @Gondwanaland,

Thank you so much for those explanations, now I understand it better and don't see thyroid hormones and progesterone as evils to be avoideD

Happy to help Been on T3 and hydrocortisone since 2000, and other thyroid meds prior, and worked for a thyroid and adrenal specialist private doctor as his nutritional therapist for a time, so picked up some (hopefully) useful knowledge from him Got oestrogen breast cancer in 2007, so then learnt a load more.

To clarify - progesterone doesn't destroy oestrogen, and it could only be considered as depletion through the presence of progesterone stimulatimg oestrogen receptors to pick up any available oestrogen for the purpose of having it do its job. What happens to it after that depends on whether there's sufficient thyroid hormone to attach it to the SHBG protein so that it can be transported to job-specific-sites and be used positively.

Remember also that the same applies the other way round - the presence of oestrogen also stimulates progesterone receptors to pick up any available progesterone, too. The balance is crucial.

Perhaps this is why progesterone hurts me so much, it also depletes estrogen which I don't have.

- Causes oestrogen to be picked up and hopefully used, not depletion in the usual sense of reducing or diminishing to no good effect, like zinc depletes copper, for example. I see where you're coming from, but "depletion" might be misleading if anyone dips into this thread and sees that "progesterone depletes oestrogen". Each hormone stimulates the use of the other. It's a balancing act, not strictly an act of depletion

How do you mean, progrsterone hurts you? (Concerned smiley, except I can't find one) What happens if you use progesterone? Is it transdermal or oral prog, and synthetic or natural bioidentical prog that you've had bad effects from? Has anyone checked your progesterone levels?

Or because I do not have fat cells?

Having fewer fat cells would certainly fit with having low oestrogen status, yes. What have your levels tested at, and did they test for all three main oestrogens - oestrone, oestradiol and oestriol - or just oestradiol? IMHO, they should always test for all three, because they all do slightly different things, but not even my endo Prof will do this. My old private doc tested for all three in every female patient we ever had.

Thank you for the explanation, so it can lead to estrogen depletion if it is low, interesting.

No The opposite. - Have just realised you may have been talking about oestrogen being low, not thyroid hormone being low. If so, ignore the paragraph below, but the comments I made about the difference between depletion and actual use apply

Thyroid hormone must be in sufficient quantities before oestrogen can be stuck on to SHBG. Low thyroid will lead to free oestrogen, unattached to SHBG, beimg dumped by default in breast tissue.( I assume that it would also be dumped by default in the uterus also, since that it another primary oestrogen site, but since most of the SHBG info I've studied has been in relation to breast cancer, I haven't properly looked at other potential dumping grounds.)

So low thyroid can cause elevated serum oestrogen levels.

Perhaps this is why my body refuses to produce estrogen, because my thyroid is damaged from autoimmunity?

As some sort of protective mechanism, do you mean? That could well be possible. Have both your thyroid antibody levels and your oestrogen production been checked? Can I ask a delicate question about age etc? (Feel free to PM me if you would rather keep that sort of info off the public boards!)

There is research concluding that selenium supplementation can have adverse outcomes (obviously in the research context it wasn't supplemented with the relevant co-factors. Sorry I don't have the link right now

Because I am being iatrogenically pushed towards type ll diabetes via insulin resistance from hydrocortisone, I'm always very interested in anything that affects insulin sensitivity.



If you can find the link, I'd be really interested in having a look. It might be something I can exert some control of by taking less selenium, though it has to be juggled in my case with the benefits of selenium and methylation, etc. Never easy, all this pesky juggling! I drop balls all over the place!!

 

[CFS_for_19_years]

Low thyroid will lead to free oestrogen, unattached to SHBG, beimg dumped by default in breast tissue.( I assume that it would also be dumped by default in the uterus also, since that it another primary oestrogen site, but since most of the SHBG info I've studied has been in relation to breast cancer, I haven't properly looked at other potential dumping grounds.)

So low thyroid can cause elevated serum oestrogen levels.

I believe this is why hypothyroidism leads to uterine fibroids. So whenever fibroids are present, a doctor should suspect hypothyroidism.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Happy to help Been on T3 and hydrocortisone since 2000, and other thyroid meds prior, and worked for a thyroid and adrenal specialist private doctor as his nutritional therapist for a time, so picked up some (hopefully) useful knowledge from him Got oestrogen breast cancer in 2007, so then learnt a load more.

I am so sorry you got cancer. Lately a considerable proportion of women I know got breast/ovary cancer a couple of years after starting LT4. I am on T4+T3 since Dec 2014 (started LT4 on Aug 2014 and it clearly wasn't working).
It makes me happy that you are here to share your knowledge I understand that you are also looking for answers too, and I hope that my personal observations can at least hint you into a useful direction... There are so many things I observed but couldn't find the right answers (just like the above) and now am able to build a more precise picture of it all in my Swiss-cheesy brain!

To clarify - progesterone doesn't destroy oestrogen, and it could only be considered as depletion through the presence of progesterone stimulatimg oestrogen receptors to pick up any available oestrogen for the purpose of having it do its job. What happens to it after that depends on whether there's sufficient thyroid hormone to attach it to the SHBG protein so that it can be transported to job-specific-sites and be used positively.

Remember also that the same applies the other way round - the presence of oestrogen also stimulates progesterone receptors to pick up any available progesterone, too. The balance is crucial.

- Causes oestrogen to be picked up and hopefully used, not depletion in the usual sense of reducing or diminishing to no good effect, like zinc depletes copper, for example. I see where you're coming from, but "depletion" might be misleading if anyone dips into this thread and sees that "progesterone depletes oestrogen". Each hormone stimulates the use of the other. It's a balancing act, not strictly an act of depletion

Thank you SO MUCH for this simple, short and clear explanation! I want to call @jjxx to this discusssion since she has been having troubles with progesterone as well.

How do you mean, progrsterone hurts you? (Concerned smiley, except I can't find one) What happens if you use progesterone? Is it transdermal or oral prog, and synthetic or natural bioidentical prog that you've had bad effects from? Has anyone checked your progesterone levels?

From what I read, it feels like joint pain from chemo, in which women take protease and aromatase inhibitors. Progesterone seems to start a metabolic pathway for B6 procucing niacin and no serotonin - when I was on transdermal bioidentical progesterone at first I got emotionally flat, then depressed, then with a lot of pain. Yes, drs. are checking my progesterone and estradiol in my blood and all they do is to harm me even furhter. Then last Dec I went to my current hormone dr and begged for transdermal bioidentical estrogen, because I had taken Evening Primrose Oil for a month and stopped, and the pain was unbearable (uric acid went up up up).

So low thyroid can cause elevated serum oestrogen levels.

I happen to have both low. I would also like to bring this thread to your attention, because I went thtu a very similar reaction (will detail it later) and don't have all answers to it yet.

Can I ask a delicate question about age etc? (Feel free to PM me if you would rather keep that sort of info off the public boards!)

I will PM you, thanks!

Because I am being iatrogenically pushed towards type ll diabetes via insulin resistance from hydrocortisone, I'm always very interested in anything that affects insulin sensitivity.

My personal observation is that vit B6 is crucial for insulin sensitivity (even more than B1). My latest supplement experience was with an anti-glycation supplement which is a DAO blocker, so it upregulates all other B6 pathways (transsulfuration, increased estrogen breakdown, increased T4). I took Carcinine, which is an analogue of Carnosine / Beta-Alanine.

If you can find the link, I'd be really interested in having a look. It might be something I can exert some control of by taking less selenium, though it has to be juggled in my case with the benefits of selenium and methylation, etc. Never easy, all this pesky juggling! I drop balls all over the place!!

I haven't found the exact (flawed) study yet, but am enclosing an interesting review about Selenium which perhaps cites it (sorry I didn't have the time to check it myself).

 

[Jigsaw]

@Gondwanaland



Thank-you so much for your replies - will reply more fully later and look at links, having to haul self to Drs and feeling rubbish - but if you're on aromatase inhibitors, does that mean you have an oestrogen cancer too? I hope I've misunderstood thru rush-reading. X

 

[Jigsaw]

I believe this is why hypothyroidism leads to uterine fibroids. So whenever fibroids are present, a doctor should suspect hypothyroidism.

@CFS_for_19_years

I absolutely agree!

 

[Gondwanaland]

but if you're on aromatase inhibitors

I am not, I am on estrogen replacement, but realized my diet is full of natural aromatase inhibitors (see enclosed).

having to haul self to Drs and feeling rubbish

Sorry about that