Low Dose Antigens / Immunotherapy (LDA/LDI) Lyme

[Jonathan Edwards]

I think that most of those in this thread are most interested in its application for Lyme and co-infections (see thread title), and for treating other pathogens that have had a low success rate with conventional approaches.

Dear Sushi,
I may have lost the plot but i cannot see how LDI can be any use for Lyme. LDI is a way of desensitising, is it not? I think it is supposed to switch off an unwanted immune response, as in asthma or other allergies. If by Lyme we mean an ongoing infection with Borrelia then surely the last thing you want to do is switch off your immune response to it. If by Lyme we mean some immune imbalance that goes on after the Borrelia has gone then I am not sure quite what LDI would do since there is no Borrelia to react to anyway. The immune reaction must involve some other antigen, that nobody knows about.

It doesn't make any sense does it?

 

[msf]

I´m very interested in this question i.e. when it comes to chronic infections, is it better for the body to ignore it than to continue to fail to clear it? My instinctive answer is no, for the reason Prof. Edwards outlined. But could something such as LDI merely suppress one part of the immune system? There was a recent study that suggested that people who manage to shake off Lyme have strong cellular immune responses, and those that fail to have a stronger humoral response.

If there was a drug or therapy that only suppressed the humoral response (if that is possible), could it have a beneficial effect on such an illness. For a drug that seems to (mainly) knock out one part of the immune response, we have Rituximab for an possible example - Prof. Edwards, I remember you theorising that the reason why people who have just had their B cells depleted aren´t killed by the first bug they catch is because the cellular response is more important than the humoral response in many cases.

 

[msf]

Oh, and you were asking for evidence of allergies in ME patients, Prof. Edwards.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26200644

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

I´m very interested in this question i.e. when it comes to chronic infections, is it better for the body to ignore it than to continue to fail to clear it? My instinctive answer is no, for the reason Prof. Edwards outlined. But could something such as LDI merely suppress one part of the immune system? There was a recent study that suggested that people who manage to shake off Lyme have strong cellular immune responses, and those that fail to have a stronger humoral response.

If there was a drug or therapy that only suppressed the humoral response (if that is possible), could it have a beneficial effect on such an illness. For a drug that seems to (mainly) knock out one part of the immune response, we have Rituximab for an possible example - Prof. Edwards, I remember you theorising that the reason why people who have just had their B cells depleted aren´t killed by the first bug they catch is because the cellular response is more important than the humoral response in many cases.

Seems pretty implausible. The cellular and humoral immune responses do not work separtely. They are part of a single response. Antibody is a major mediator of cellular immunity (through picking up antigen for presentation) and T cells are key mediators of antibody responses (through T cell help). They are like a knife and fork - you use them together. There is a lot of immunobabble about a sort of Yin-Yang between the two but apart from leprosy that does not seem to have any relation to real disease.

If you reduce antibody responses the T cells can only be weakened.

The reason you do not die of infection after rituximab is that antibodies to microbes do not change - so the memory humoral response is intact. For some strange reason only autoantibodies seem to go down in the months after depletion. If your antibody levels do fall then you do get infections.

I cannot see how LDI can make sense even in this context.

Part of the problem I think is that 'cell mediated immunity' has historically been associated with the tuberculosis granuloma. But the granuloma is actually a failure of cellular immunity - due to the organism twisting the response to its own advantage. Leprosy, which is the source of all this Yin-Yang stuff, is even more weird.

 

[msf]

Ah, I thought you said that about Ritux, I must have misunderstood. I realise that the cellular and the humoral responses are linked. How about a less-specific treatment then? For instance something that reduced NfKb? So that the immune system would still produce antibodies against the infectious organism, but the overall response to it would be diminished? I guess what I´m driving at is, is there a possible situation where you could suppress the immune response to a chronic infection and not have it result in a worsening of the disease?

The Lyme paper I mentioned seemed to suggest a similar mechanism to the TB one you mentioned.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

Ah, I thought you said that about Ritux, I must have misunderstood. I realise that the cellular and the humoral responses are linked. How about a less-specific treatment then? For instance something that reduced NfKb? So that the immune system would still produce antibodies against the infectious organism, but the overall response to it would be diminished? I guess what I´m driving at is, is there a possible situation where you could suppress the immune response to a chronic infection and not have it result in a worsening of the disease?

The Lyme paper I mentioned seemed to suggest a similar mechanism to the TB one you mentioned.

If you block NfKb by blocking TNF mediated signalling you die of disseminated TB if it's on board - not to be recommended.

A Lyme paper is likely to suggest something similar to TB - immunologists have very narrow imaginations. But all these organisms that can hang around a long time probably subvert immunity in one way or another. Presumably Treponema palliidum does, and Brucella abortus. I just don't think that switching off an antibody response is likely to increase a T cell response. You probably need to switch off the T cells to switch off the antibodies anyway.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

Oh, and you were asking for evidence of allergies in ME patients, Prof. Edwards.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26200644

I have seen that one before and my memory was that I was not too convinced. I will look at it again. Unfortunately it is backwards - more CFS after atopy rather than more atopy in CFS. They should connect but life is not always that simple. I am also worried that their incidence rates look as if about 5% of the population are going to get 'CFS' after 50 years. That looks to broad a group to be of real interest. I will look again.

 

[msf]

Yes, I wasn´t suggesting blocking anything, just reducing it, so that there may more bacteria, but the inflammatory response to it is diminished. Obviously, even if it was possible, hitting the sweet spot would be a risky proposition.

 

[MeSci]

A Lyme paper is likely to suggest something similar to TB - immunologists have very narrow imaginations. But all these organisms that can hang around a long time probably subvert immunity in one way or another. Presumably Treponema palliidum does, and Brucella abortus.

Is Treponema pronounced like Ipanema? I so want to compose a song called 'The Girl with Treponema'.

 

[msf]

Sounds a lot better than ´The Girl with Syphilis.´

 

[Sushi]

It doesn't make any sense does it?

I don't know enough science to even try to make sense of it, but serg1942 attempted to do so in his paper attached to this post. Note, he is a 4th year medical student and English is not his first language. This paper is preliminary to something he will write up more formally when he has the time.

For myself, not knowing the science, I am just watching patient results -- which have been quite good after about 6 months of treatment.

 

[minkeygirl]

Does anyone know if there is a transcript from this lecture from the American Academy of Environmental Medicine conference?

http://aaemconference.com/speakers/vincent.php

 

[Sushi]

I may have lost the plot but i cannot see how LDI can be any use for Lyme.

A P.S. to my last post: The person who does understand the science is Dr. Ty Vincent and he is very open to discussions with colleagues, I believe.

 

[Sushi]

Does anyone know if there is a transcript from this lecture from the American Academy of Environmental Medicine conference?

What was the date of that conference?

 

[minkeygirl]

What was the date of that conference?

Well duh, it's in March 2016 I think. Explains it LOL.

 

[minkeygirl]

@Valentijn the last allergist/immunologist I saw wanted me to have a psych eval before he treated me with IVIG for an immune disorder (don't even ask its so idiotic and I refused) so I'm not going that route. This is what happens when a doc doesn't understand a disease outside the scope of his learning but thinks he does and ultimately compromises a patients treatment.

Everything makes me bloat due to IBS but that's about it. I just want as much info as I can for Dr Vincent, although i'm seeing him for viruses and infections, unless he sees other things I'm missing.

 

[Hip]

Is Treponema pronounced like Ipanema? I so want to compose a song called 'The Girl with Treponema'.

Nice to have some levity thrown in! That would be a good song title, especially since one theory is that Treponema pallidum came from South America. It could have been an excellent Sex Pistols song title.

I once went out with a girl from Ipanema. There is some trivia for you.



Have you ever used the HowjSay pronouncing dictionary (which has a British accent)? It includes a reasonably wide range of medical and drug names too.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

A P.S. to my last post: The person who does understand the science is Dr. Ty Vincent and he is very open to discussions with colleagues, I believe.

On Dr Vincent's home page he basically says that he does not believe in conventional science - he likes to invent his own, using words that sound scientific. If LDI for Lyme is his recommendation then that figures I guess.

We need a level playing field. If we are going to criticise psychobabble we need to criticise immunobabble, and in this case pseudo-immunobabble.

 

[msf]

I´ve just read it, and he definitely does not say he does not believe in conventional medicine (he mentions science several times). He seems to think that alternative methods may be more effective - this is not unscientific. as long as those methods are proven scientifically. This is my problem with LDI at the moment - that if you google ´LDI Lyme´ on Pubmed, there are no results. If it was me, I would wait until at least a couple of papers were published on it. But I understand why others might not want to wait.

I think something else we should be wary of is misrepresenting people.

 

[MeSci]

Nice to have some levity thrown in! That would be a good song title, especially since one theory is that Treponema pallidum came from South America. It could have been an excellent Sex Pistols song title.

I once went out with a girl from Ipanema. There is some trivia for you.

Have you ever used the HowjSay pronouncing dictionary (which has a British accent)? It includes a reasonably wide range of medical and drug names too.

Thanks, @Hip.

Bald and thin and hot and itchy,
The girl with Treponema goes walking,
And when she passes, each one she passes goes
(Enter own sensitive, politically-correct exclamation)