Low Dose Antigens / Immunotherapy (LDA/LDI) Lyme

[Dufresne]

She was referring to the levels of dosing, saying that the dosing was very homeopathic-like or something like that. Yes, I'm sure she knows what homeopathy is. However, this is not homeopathy. There are differences--for instance and adjuvant is used.

She says "very homeopathic in its dosing strategy." Indeed I believe she's endorsing homeopathy.

@barbc56, she also acknowledges chemical sensitivities. Doesn't this alone qualify her as not adhering to the scientific method?

If Dr Vincent uses homeopathic dilutions then his therapy indeed incorporates homeopathy. His using an adjuvant doesn't change this.

I can understand him not going into the dilutions thing on his website, but I'm pretty sure he mentions it in his interview with Neil Nathan.

Most people with chronic Lyme and similar infections experience a herx when taking nosodes in the X range and even into the C range. Dr Vincent talks about the flares he sees when the 'antigen' is not sufficiently dilute, and he's referring to doses well into the C range. I believe he's essentially talking about a herx.

And of course a herx is due to toxins produced when bacteria die off. This to me suggests his therapy is not just desensitizing but rather bringing the 'antigen' to the attention of the immune system. Interestingly in homeopathy this can cause both the killing of a pathogen as well as a desensitization to something the body deems noxious. The latter is what they're doing in provocation/neutralization therapy, which is also essentially homeopathy. Somehow, it seems, the body knows what to do with each stimulus.

 

[Gingergrrl]

It is interesting that Dr. Nancy Klimas (ME/CFS specialist and advocate, Member of the IOM Commitee, past Director, Clinical Immunology Research, Miami VAMC, presently Chair, Department of Clinical Immunology, College of Osteopathic Medicine, Nova Southeastern University) is getting interested in researching this.

I just found out that someone I know may try this treatment with Dr. Klimas which confirms she is now offering it.

 

[Gingergrrl]

Also wanted to add that for some of us with extreme sensitivities to meds, a homeopathic type dose is all we need or all we are able to handle. I am now doing a protocol to treat mold/biotoxin illness and starting with very low doses of things (and a lot of trial and error) but they are working! So how do we know that LDI is not the same?

 

[Sushi]

I just found out that someone I know may try this treatment with Dr. Klimas which confirms she is now offering it.

Thanks. I had heard that she would be offering it but as I didn't have a direct source for this, I hadn't mentioned it.

 

[barbc56]

she also acknowledges chemical sensitivities. Doesn't this alone qualify her as not adhering to the scientific method?

Like off label usage of medication, it depends on the knowledge based used. If a drug is used off lable because it's grounded in medical knowledge then it's conventional medicine albeit not considered having the same strength as studies. Science based medicine has a hierarchy of evidence strength. It's not just studies used to come to a conclusion.

When you get into treatments, lets say for chemical sensitivities, if practices like vitamin infusions without evidence of a deficiency, chelating for toxins, then it's alternative medicine as these treatments and diagnostic tests are considered lacking in scientific credence.

Again this is not necessarily an indictment of either modality as that's a matter of choice. What I'm talking about is the definitions. It can be very confusing, for example, in this thread, the definition of what is considered true homeopathy.

As with anything in life, there are gray areas.

megrrl, post: 662729, member: 15021"]lso wanted to add that for some of us with extreme sensitivities to meds, a homeopathic type dose is all we need or all we are able to handle

.
If it's true homeopathy, then there aren't any medicinal qualities left. However like you, I am very sensitive to a lot of medications so smaller doses are more effective.But these smaller dosages are not homeopathy.

It seems that what is considered homeopathy in Europe is different than in the states? Time for bed as I'm now confusing myself!

Barb

 

[Dufresne]

Like off label usage of medication, it depends on the knowledge based used. If a drug is used off lable because it's grounded in medical knowledge then it's conventional medicine albeit not considered having the same strength as studies. Science based medicine has a hierarchy of evidence strength. It's not just studies used to come to a conclusion.

When you get into treatments, lets say for chemical sensitivities, if practices like vitamin infusions without evidence of a deficiency, chelating for toxins, then it's alternative medicine as these treatments and diagnostic tests are considered lacking in scientific credence.

Again this is not necessarily an indictment of either modality as that's a matter of choice. What I'm talking about is the definitions. It can be very confusing, for example, in this thread, the definition of what is considered true homeopathy.

As with anything in life, there are gray areas.

.
If it's true homeopathy, then there aren't any medicinal qualities left. However like you, I am very sensitive to a lot of medications so smaller doses are more effective.But these smaller dosages are not homeopathy.

It seems that what is considered homeopathy in Europe is different than in the states? Time for bed as I'm now confusing myself!

Barb

Isn't acknowledging the existence of chemical sensitivity a transgression of science based medicine just as acknowledgement of homeopathy would be? What does that site you've referenced, science-based medicine, have to say about homeopathy? What does it say about chemical sensitivity?

As for the definitions, I'm pretty sure homeopathy really only denotes one thing whether in Europe, North America, or coming out of Nancy Klimas' mouth. I think we should get down to the bottom of this so that you can categorically classify Dr Klimas as a quack. We can throw her in with Drs Cheney, De Meirleir, Shoemaker, Enlander, etc who seem to believe chronic Lyme exists. The nutcases! And by the sound of it Klimas too subscribes to chronic Lyme. Or maybe you might consider that you and science-based medicine have got it wrong.

 

[barbc56]

@Dufresne

I'm not sure what more to say. The answers to your questions are in my above posts. It's the foundation/source that defines if a practice is alternative or conventional. You might see the same behavior such as off label use of a medication but one doctor may use solid science reasoning while another may prescribe something off label but not use a scientifically plausible reason to do so.
Barb

Edit. Took out repeated information plus some other things that may be off topic

 

[MeSci]

And if off-label use is alternative medicine, then a lot of doctors fall in the alternative category.

Would a UK doctor prescribing an effective treatment for ME be regarded as practising alternative medicine? After all, there are no effective treatments for ME that are approved, or regarded as scientifically-proven/evidence-based by the NHS/NICE.

 

[MeSci]

If it's true homeopathy, then there aren't any medicinal qualities left.

No - if it's true homeopathy, there aren't any molecules of the substance left.

There is more to reality than molecules.

Or do you think that quantum physics is bogus?

I don't find homeopathy any weirder than that!

I am on the fence with regard to homeopathy. I accept that there is much more that we don't know than that we do know, so keep an open mind.

 

[msf]

Very good point, MeSci - by Barbara´s definition, Klimas, Montoya, Kogelnik, De Meirleir, Kaufmann, Enlander and Gottfried are practicing alternative medicine.

 

[Dufresne]

@Dufresne

I'm not sure what more to say. The answers to your questions are in my above posts. It's the foundation/source that defines if a practice is alternative or conventional. You might see the same behavior such as off label use of a medication but one doctor may use solid science reasoning while another may prescribe something off label but not use a scientifically plausible reason to do so.
Barb

Edit. Took out repeated information plus some other things that may be off topic

Barb, you were having that alternative/conventional debate with msf, not me. You're not actually addressing my points at all. I was the one who was saying we should get to the bottom of this LDI homeopathy thing so you can denounce Klimas as practicing pseudoscience. You did say your esteem for her just tanked if she indeed subscribes to homeopathy. I want you to own that. And if you're not comfortable doing so perhaps you might want to consider that you could be wrong about this.

Below is the link to Dr Vincent and Dr Nathan talking about the dilutions used in LDI. Listen from 23:00 to about 30:00. And assuming a well informed person like Nancy Klimas does understand Dr Vincent's approach and recognizes what she's saying when she says "homeopathy" I think we've to conclude that she thinks there's actually something to the discipline. Please give me your thoughts on this.

http://www.voiceamerica.com/episode/87271/low-dose-immunotherapy-a-new-healing-tool

 

[msf]

Thank you, Dufresne, for moving the conversation forward. Some of these dilutions do seem to be true homeopathy, in that it is very unlikely even a single molecule of the original substance will be in the final mixture. The reaction to the lower ones, though, suggests that there is some of the antigen present. Does anyone know if there is any evidence for the lower dilutions of homeopathy (the ones where there is some of the original substance present, however little) having an effect on disease?

 

[msf]

From the Wikipedia page on homeopathy: ISO 3696 (Water for analytical laboratory use) specifies a purity of ten parts per billion, or 10×10−9 ― this water cannot be kept in glass or plastic containers as they leach impurities into the water, and glassware must be washed with hydrofluoric acid before use. Ten parts per billion is equivalent to a homeopathic dilution of 4C.

This suggests that 3C might have an effect on the outcome of an experiment. So could 6C have an effect on the immune system? Has anyone studied this?

 

[msf]

Not really relevant, but this amused me (from the same article): A popular homeopathic treatment for the flu is a 200C dilution of duck liver, marketed under the name Oscillococcinum. As there are only about 1080 atoms in the entire observable universe, a dilution of one molecule in the observable universe would be about 40C. Oscillococcinum would thus require 10320 more atoms to simply have one molecule in the final substance.

NB: That´s 10 to the power of 80, and so on.

 

[barbc56]

While I always appreciate new sources of information, right now I don't have time to watch a video nor waste more energy on a debate, so will try to summarize my points and move on as I don't want to take this thread even more off topic.

If someone, I don't care who we are talking about, is using, @Valentijn's definition of homeopathy, thanks Valentjin for the clarification, then they are using alternative practices. Alternative practices fly in the face of the scientific method/science based medicine.

My point, which may have become more convoluted than I intended, is that because many of these practioners use some science based treatments, people assume that all their treatments are scientifically legitimate and that's when things become problematic.

Barb

 

[Gingergrrl]

Not sure if this is off-track or relates but I feel it is relevant. Some could argue that *any* treatment we are doing for ME/CFS, dysautonomia, POTS, Mast Cell Disease, Mold/Biotoxin Illness or CIRS, Lyme, etc, are all "alternative" treatments if the only standard is traditional, double blinded studies. Traditional docs were not able to help me and believe me when I say that I tried for about two years.

For most of us, or at least for myself, if there is a treatment that I can:

1) Tolerate without allergic reactions, horrific side effects, etc
2) Improve my symptoms
3) Reduce my suffering
4) Allow me to participate more in life with my family and friends
5) Allow me to breathe better so I can walk without wheelchair (the ultimate goal)

then I will grab that treatment and I will try it no matter how bizarre it may sound to others and I am a fairly cautious person. There are some docs who prescribe and use BOTH traditional treatments and alternative treatments and that is okay, too. I'm not sure where the debate is here?

 

[Butydoc]

Barb, you were having that alternative/conventional debate with msf, not me. You're not actually addressing my points at all. I was the one who was saying we should get to the bottom of this LDI homeopathy thing so you can denounce Klimas as practicing pseudoscience. You did say your esteem for her just tanked if she indeed subscribes to homeopathy. I want you to own that. And if you're not comfortable doing so perhaps you might want to consider that you could be wrong about this.

Below is the link to Dr Vincent and Dr Nathan talking about the dilutions used in LDI. Listen from 23:00 to about 30:00. And assuming a well informed person like Nancy Klimas does understand Dr Vincent's approach and recognizes what she's saying when she says "homeopathy" I think we've to conclude that she thinks there's actually something to the discipline. Please give me your thoughts on this.

http://www.voiceamerica.com/episode/87271/low-dose-immunotherapy-a-new-healing-tool

What I find interesting about the link you posted is that both practitioners are alternative medicine doctors who treat large groups of lymes patients. The dilutions they use are incredible dilute and with almost any scientific model one would think doesn't make sense. The interesting part has to do with the reaction of some of these patients to very dilute concentrations of antigens with a resultant worsening of their symptoms. When patients with ME/S.E.I.D./CFS take antibiotic or antivirals or really almost any medication and have a worsening of symptoms they call it a "HERX" reaction. It has never been clear to me what this "HERX" reaction really is. It appears that the reaction with the dilute concentration of antigen which seems like a homeopathic dose causes a similar type of reaction like many drugs and supplements cause. I wonder if all of these reaction have a common source? Since Both Dr. Vincent and Dr Nathan have reported on these type of reaction to what appears to be homeopathic doses, I would have to conclude that there is enough material in these LDA preparation to cause such a response unless both docs are lying, which I doubt.

 

[Gingergrrl]

@Butydoc couldn't it be a detox type reaction rather than a true "Herx?" I am getting a detox reaction on a mold protocol that makes me feel feverish, freezing chills, literally like having a "fake" flu or cytokine reaction and I do not have Lyme. Maybe this is similar?

 

[Butydoc]

@Butydoc couldn't it be a detox type reaction rather than a true "Herx?" I am getting a detox reaction on a mold protocol that makes me feel feverish, freezing chills, literally like having a "fake" flu or cytokine reaction and I do not have Lyme. Maybe this is similar?

Hi Gingergrrl,

It is not clear to me what these reactions constitute. I wonder why such a large number of medicines/antigens have a similar reaction in our group. I would be interesting to see if there is a common pathway . I'm not sure why these reaction have never really been investigated. Maybe if they were, this might lead insight to our disease. I wonder what Dr Edwards thinks might be the mechanism involved.

 

[geraldt52]

Many years ago my wife went through LDI... There is no doubt that you can provoke some interesting reactions using low dose antigens, but whether it treats anything is another question...

When I said this in an earlier post I was alluding to the fact that in my wife's case there did indeed seem to be genuine, interesting reactions to the low dose antigens. There does appear to be something going on, and I certainly wouldn't argue that it would merit investigation...in a more scientific manner than anecdotal stories, and preferably not funded by patients desperate for a treatment.

Provoking reactions, and treating an illness are obviously two different things. As I said before, my wife's experience was that several years of adjusting and fine tuning the LDAs went absolutely nowhere, and we seemed to be just repeating nonsense on top of nonsense. Part of the reason my wife went for the treatment was the possibility of replacing her conventional allergy shots, and the LDI, which was designed for that purpose, proved completely useless for even that.