Loading B12 or not?

[TheGrandWazoo]

So I've been raising my sublingual mB12(Jarrows) intake 250mcg/day and I'm now on 1000mcg and tolerating it fairly well. It's having a light stimulant effect on me.

Now I'm thinking I could introduce methylfolate(Jarrows), adding 200mcg per day.

OR

Keep upping the mB12 dose to 5mg for a loading effect before dropping back to 1mg and introducing methylfolate.

What do you think?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

So I'm up to 1000mcg mB12 and 600mcg mFolate. It seems every time I increase mFoalte I feel great for a few hours then unease and fatigue takes over. I added another 250mg mB12 a hour ago and I'm feeling a little better, not sure it it's the mB12 or simply taking a break from the light house chores is was doing.

More about me and my health:
26 year old Male. Last month I've had an outbreak of fever-like symptoms, exhaustion, soreness all around, anxiousness and insomnia. I'm still trying to recover from all of this.
Leading up to that in the recent years I've been having frequent urination, depressive symptoms and low stress tolerance creeping up on me. Lifelong attention and brain fog issues. Doctors can't find anything but have noted a Hemoglobin on the lower part of the normal range.

Other stuff I'm taking right now:

In the morning
2-3g Fish Oil
B6 P5P 25mg
Vitamin D3 2000IU/50mg
Potassium 200mg
Zinc citrate 80mg
Vitamin C 50mg
Caffeine 150mg
Uridine Monophosphate .2g(Just started this)

In the evening:
Magnesium citrate 400 mg
Niacin 50mg
Melatonin 2mg
Allegra 180mg

L-Theanine 500mg thought the day

 

[caledonia]

Your symptoms make me think of many things, such as thyroid and adrenal issues, toxic metals, candida, methylation issues.

A regular won't know how to test for or deal with these issues.

Please read "Start Low and Go Slow" and "Roadblocks to Successful Methylation" before proceeding (links in my signature).

 

[sueami]

Don't forget that absorption rates are quite low for sublingual mb12. Freddd could only get about 30 percent absorbed, and he was quite experienced with buccal absorption (I assume by sublingual you mean between the cheek and gum, as that's generally taken to be more effective, from what I've read here). I'm not sure I'm getting even 20 percent absorbed.

So you are taking 3 times as much folate as MB12 right now. I made this mistake and felt steadily worse over two months of trying the protocol. When I asked my physician about injectible mb12, he thought it was a good idea and it's been very beneficial for me in terms of fatigue and anxiety/mood disorderedness. I take 1cc every other day, and I shoot for 4,000-5,000 mcg sublingual every day also, but I will sometimes eat before a tablet is fully dissolved and impede my absorption there, I think.

I am wondering why you are taking niacin at night. It sops up the methyl groups and shuts down methylation, and my thinking has been, since so much healing goes on while we sleep, why would I deprive my cells of methylation then? Have you found that MB12 is disturbing your sleep?

 

[sregan]

Don't forget that absorption rates are quite low for sublingual mb12. Freddd could only get about 30 percent absorbed, and he was quite experienced with buccal absorption (I assume by sublingual you mean between the cheek and gum, as that's generally taken to be more effective, from what I've read here). I'm not sure I'm getting even 20 percent absorbed.

So you are taking 3 times as much folate as MB12 right now. I made this mistake and felt steadily worse over two months of trying the protocol.

@sueami, when Freddd or Rich or others here talk about the ratio of MCbl to MFolate do you think they take the absorption rate into consideration. Most of what I've seen talks about a 1:1 ratio (at least to start with)

What we were talking about yesterday takes into account the SNP's and how well one might recycle MB12. That's a personal consideration. What about recycling Folate? Are there SNP's for that or do MTRR and MTR for B12 also tell us something about how folate will be recycled also?

 

[sueami]

It's my (very limited) understanding that folate demand is what the MTHFR snps affect -- A1298 and C677. Folate is what Ben Lynch recommends for dealing with them, at least. http://mthfr.net/mthfr-c677t-mutation-basic-protocol/2012/02/24/

I was just thinking about the fact that I am compound heterozygous for those but have a homozygous MTRR and am heterozygous for two other MTRRs and MTR. It stands to reason that I would need to focus a bit more on methyl groups than folate.

I have always assumed that 1:1 referenced absorbed levels. There can be way too much variability in how people consume the dissolvable pills to be able to say that the label amount should be matched. But, that's just an assumption.

@ahmo just posted a link to a really juicy looking compilation of Freddd's writings on methylation. The answer may be in there. The link is in her sig here http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?members/ahmo.5434/

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

amho's freddd compilation is super useful!

This morning I repeated yesterdays dose, 1000mcg mB12, 600mcg mFolate. After lunch I tried 200 mcg mFolate and 500mcg mB12. I think the first dose worked better. Not sure if its the ratio (1.3:1 vs 2.5:1) or the overall dose thats not working for me. More trial and error is needed. Today was more even than yesterday though overall wellness stayed unchanged. I think I'm gonna try a ratios closer to 1:1 and and more spread out throughout the day tomorrow.

I take niacin in the evening cause it mellows me out and I'm rather anxious right now, I'm gonna reduce this to 25mg so as not to deplete methyl donors.

 

[ahmo]

@TheGrandWazoo RE niacin. This might be totally unrelated to how you use it; When I've gotten restless, sl anxious symptoms after raising folate, I've had excellent results just popping a 1 mg B12. This is where Ben Lynch would suggest niacin to damp down the methylation. Might be totally unrelated to your use of B3.

And I'm so happy the compilation is useful. I'd spent so many hours searching, and collected so many bits of info, I really wanted to make something useful of it.

 

[pela]

It is believed that Jarrow B12 changed somehow and lost it's effectiveness about two years ago. Try Enzymatic Therapy B12 Infusion 1000 mcg Country Life MethylB12 5000 mcg.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It is believed that Jarrow B12 changed somehow and lost it's effectiveness about two years ago. Try Enzymatic Therapy B12 Infusion 1000 mcg Country Life MethylB12 5000 mcg.

It will be a a few weeks before I get my hands on this.

I'll see if I can drop niacin, i've cut it to 25mg per day in the mean time.

Right now in doing fairly OK with 250mg mB12, 200mcg mFoalte and 400mg potassium every four hours.
My main issues are alternating palpitations/high pulse and muscle tenseness/weakness. Whenever I try 400mcg folate and 500mg B12 dose the muscle issue get elevated. Any ideas what's going on here?

 

[sueami]

My guess would be undermethylation, based on the low absorption rates of sublingual B12. Freddd roughly estimated at one time (based on changes in his urine, I believe that indicated a certain level of MB12) that he could get at best 30 percent absorption of buccal mb12 tablets, compared to mb12 shots. So your 500 mcg ( you are talking micrograms, right? And not milligrams?) dose of mb12 is probably no better than 150mcg absorbed, and that's a third of your folate dose.

Everything I've seen here advises shooting for a 1 to 1 dose.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Sueami, I'm not sure about that. I just added another 125mg B12 to my regular dose and it induces a mild rash, one of the folate deficiency symptoms freddd mentions. Unless I'm mistaken the Jarrow lozenges I have on hand are being sufficiently absorbed.

 

[sregan]

It's my (very limited) understanding that folate demand is what the MTHFR snps affect -- A1298 and C677. Folate is what Ben Lynch recommends for dealing with them, at least. http://mthfr.net/mthfr-c677t-mutation-basic-protocol/2012/02/24/

I Am -/- for C677 (yes!)
But +/- for 03 P39P and 1298C

I was just thinking about the fact that I am compound heterozygous for those but have a homozygous MTRR and am heterozygous for two other MTRRs and MTR. It stands to reason that I would need to focus a bit more on methyl groups than folate.

I have always assumed that 1:1 referenced absorbed levels. There can be way too much variability in how people consume the dissolvable pills to be able to say that the label amount should be matched. But, that's just an assumption.

I think 1:1 must have been just a general assumption. When you start looking at the SNPs a different story starts to show. Seems that everyone will have to find their proper ratio using their SNPs as a guide. As long as the symptoms of too much folate and too little MB12 are understood (along with low potassium) finding equilibrium seems very possible.

For me I'm pretty stable now for this startup. It's been 3 weeks and feeling pretty good. I'm taking a very small amount of everything but it's encouraging.

For me the questions are about increasing dosing Amount and/or Frequency. If any one can chime in on this, esp how they knew to increase frequency.

I'm also experiencing sudden arthritic type pain in my finger knuckles. If anyone knows what that might a sign of please do tell!!

@ahmo just posted a link to a really juicy looking compilation of Freddd's writings on methylation. The answer may be in there. The link is in her sig here http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?members/ahmo.5434/

I saw the blog entry and was delighted. What an awesome gift back to this forum. There is so MUCH good information on this forum but so scattered. I almost wonder if we might have a local wiki to organize info.

I think everyone should journal their own experience in their blogs. I wish more people would use that feature.

 

[sueami]

The trick, as you @TheGrandWazoo and @sregan both point out, is in understanding the symptoms of each type of deficiency in your own body. I'm still struggling with that.

I was titering up folate when I had hive/insect bite like itchy spots appear, and I think that's how I ended up getting so high on folate without keeping up with MB12. Now, I am wondering if what I thought were low-folate signs were in fact a histamine response, as I am MAO A +/+.

I still find Freddd's list of symptoms confusing as they are so long and varied and overlap so much. I think it has to be a matter of trial and error on your own body to be certain.

Sometimes, in my never-ending search for a larger meaning to everything, I wonder if that is one of the reasons I came down with this -- because I didn't pay close enough attention to my body and its responses, and I needed to learn how to do that.

a work in progress for me,

sue

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

because I didn't pay close enough attention to my body and its responses, and I needed to learn how to do that.

Rest assured you're not alone. It's not exactly conducive with the expectations put on the average person to provide for them selfs and their familiy. Between that and the relief people get from fast food, caffeine, alcohol and nicotine theres probably tiny percentage that develop these skills.

 

[xchocoholic]

Some of us had to stop these after awhile due to unwanted side effects. I had insomnia and felt toxic. These chemicals were oozing out my pores and I couldn't get the taste out of my mouth.

Are you having your serum levels tested ? My doctors kept testing this for me. I saw my numbers go from sub normal to off the charts. My adverse reactions happened when these got too high.

I didn't see any long term improvements on these but I still feel more energized from taking B's. Now I'm just drinking vitamin water xxx.
I still get insomnia or wake up in the middle of the night, like now, if I drink this too late in the day.

I had many improvements prior to starting these just by going on the elimination diet. Esp gluten but other food intolerances are responsible for my various "cfs" symptoms. For ex, gluten caused neuro reactions, the phlegm in my throat was and still is from soy. Shiners are from dairy. Etc etc. We're all individual in how we react tho.

Fwiw, nutrients from foods are best since they're bio-available. Dr Wahls, etc explains this.

Tc ... x

 

[sregan]

I had many improvements prior to starting these just by going on the elimination diet. Esp gluten but other food intolerances are responsible for my various "cfs" symptoms. For ex, gluten caused neuro reactions, the phlegm in my throat was and still is from soy. Shiners are from dairy. Etc etc. We're all individual in how we react tho.

Good information here thank you... a question. Are the shiners like black eyes?

 

[xchocoholic]

Yes. My shiners start near my nose but will show up under my eye if I don't stop eating dairy. I finally stopped trying to eat it. Ok. I would cave if I was offered free gelato. Lol.

Poultry makes me lethargic if I eat it too many meals in a row.

Corn always causes me to get sores on my scalp. Sometimes they're crusty but not always.

My labs say I produce antibodies to egg whites but I've never seen or felt any reactions if I eat something that was made using whole eggs. I don't eat the whites any other way.

I've heard that food intolerances will stop if you heal leaky gut or go on the elimination diet for x amount of time but these reactions haven't changed since I first eliminated them in 2005.

Possibly because I'm a celiac and my gut never healed completely. Or I'm having immune system reactions.

My ataxia vanished one year post gf diet when my B12 was in the 200 range.

Tc .. x

 

[sregan]

I would cave if I was offered free gelato. Lol.

I understand completely!!!

Poultry makes me lethargic if I eat it too many meals in a row.

Wonder if you have a ammonia issue with it perhaps? Arsenic?

Corn always causes me to get sores on my scalp. Sometimes they're crusty but not always.

Possible GMO issue due to increased levels of Glyphosate herbicide content?

My ataxia vanished one year post gf diet when my B12 was in the 200 range.

That's terrific, congratulaitons on that!

 

[xchocoholic]

I understand completely!!!



Wonder if you have a ammonia issue with it perhaps? Arsenic?



Possible GMO issue due to increased levels of Glyphosate herbicide content?



That's terrific, congratulaitons on that!

I'm going to be lazy here ... today was laundry day so I'm exhausted.

Mmmm. Gelato. The So Delicious coconut ice cream is good too tho. Too expensive tho.

I was thinking it's a tryptophan problem. I realized that I did this about 6 years ago and after some reading came to that conclusion.

I tried plain organic corn on the cob just to be sure. Homemade organic air popped popcorn nailed me too. Most of my food is organic. Corn starch gets me too.

Thanks. It was a nice surprise. I still use a motorized cart most of the time for shopping. My OI acts up if I'm standing or not moving
Enough.

Tc ... x