Lithium orotate, methylation and thyroid

[stridor]

@leela The doses that people with Bipolar take are perhaps 200x the dose that most of us take. While I have no evidence to support this, I suspect that some natural water supplies could approach our orotate doses.
Even so, given the neuroprotective properties, Li just has too big of an upside not to be considered.

For the record, I took Rx Lithium for a year for Bipolar and have no clue whether this is related to my thyroid problem. And iodine caused my thyroid to swell and it was painful to swallow. I was trying it for the other things Io is supposed to do.

When I went down this particular rabbit hole (very appropriate analogy as I was Mad as a Hatter with mercury toxicity) I had dysautonomia and I couldn't get my temperatures up. I even went hyperthyroid at one point and still my temps stayed low. My temps were in your range. My lowest was 33.4 which is just a bit over 92F - checked with 2 thermometers. I was confused with that one. In spite of all this I never felt cold. Weird.

After a year of chelating mercury, my temps came up but unfortunately my theory that my CFS would abate proved to be wrong.

 

[HealthAdvocate1]

Sorry, but I am not in the mood to go over all that again. I posted about it on this thread back in 2010. You can read it here: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/in-depths-of-iodine-despair.2150/

@Dreambirdie - thank you for the link. Glad to read that you resolved your problems. I just read the entire discussion. You mentioned using sublingual calming aminos. Can you tell me what you took? Also, what supplements and herbs did you take to calm your system (mentioned on final post of iodine thread) THANKS

 

[Dreambirdie]

@Dreambirdie - thank you for the link. Glad to read that you resolved your problems. I just read the entire discussion. You mentioned using sublingual calming aminos. Can you tell me what you took? Also, what supplements and herbs did you take to calm your system (mentioned on final post of iodine thread) THANKS

That was almost five years ago... so I can't tell you for sure what I took that was calming. I probably used magnesium oil.... lots of it... before bed. And I probably also used some holy basil.

And I am pretty sure that I massaged my feet every night, and massaged the triple heater meridian (which relates to the thyroid) and other acupressure points (like Heart 7 and PC 6 to calm my heart.

As for the sublingual calming aminos... I have no idea about those, so they probably were something I tried that didn't work very well.

That's the best I can remember.

 

[HealthAdvocate1]

That was almost five years ago... so I can't tell you for sure what I took that was calming. I probably used magnesium oil.... lots of it... before bed. And I probably also used some holy basil.

And I am pretty sure that I massaged my feet every night, and massaged the triple heater meridian (which relates to the thyroid) and other acupressure points (like Heart 7 and PC 6 to calm my heart.

As for the sublingual calming aminos... I have no idea about those, so they probably were something I tried that didn't work very well.

That's the best I can remember.

@Dreambirdie - Thanks

 

[Critterina]

Just wanted to share this link for an article about lithium and thyroid (TSH, T4), with women who ingested lithium over long periods of time at 2-3 mg/day in their drinking water, and 2-30 mg/day from all sources. For those of us taking 5 mg/day, it's a similar exposure. Most places in the world have much less Li in their drinking water - the location for the study was chosen because the Li there was very high and most people have been living there a long time.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3114818/

 

[npeden]

All I know is that I have very high glutamate in my neurotransmitters and I found this article, by a Yasko fan, that I think does a good job of explaining why one might one to take lithium orotate: to reduce glutamate.

I tried it a while back and it really potentiated my b12, so also helps my COMT snp I hope and made me feel great but boy did it eat up iodine when I did the paint the back of your hand test. And right now my thyroid is good; so do not want to mess that up but I want to restart lithium. I need to find out what mg. of iodine to supp. with...I guess this is going to take some regular testing of thyroid. Damn.

Here is the article. Not scholarly but pretty thorough on reduce glutamate and other things all the way through methylation. Tell me what you all think. http://www.holistichelp.net/blog/how-to-increase-gaba-and-balance-glutamate/

 

[npeden]

Just went online to buy some iodine then began reading up again on the Himalayan Pink Salt I use in my H2). It is full of iodine and may be why my thyroid is good. We will see what adding lithium will do. So must test.

BTW: The Pink Salt I use comes from the San Francisco Salt company and they assured me theirs isn't polluted. Sure hope so.

 

[MarkO]

Lithium induces both B12 and folate transport into the cells thus driving the long route. This can happen with just the standing levels of B12 and folate without additional supplementation. B12 binding capacity as well as white count will go up in the presence of lithium....
...
So certain behavioral problems, depression and learning disability could be caused or aggravated by low nutritional intake of lithium coupled with marginal deficiencies of B12 and folic acid, the transport of this latter vitamin also being modulated by lithium.
...
Lithium plays a role with sodium and potassium balance.
​

​

@stridor - very interesting. I've recently identified mercury poisoning as a contributing/major factor in my CFS/ME. Hair & urine tests show mercury, and a porphyrins test shows the mercury signature. And mercury can interfere with lithium transport in the body.

B12 definitely helps my brain fog and energy levels for sure, but I've had to take high doses to get the beneficial effects - I wonder if low lithium is the reason? My recent hair test shows very very low levels of lithium (<5th percentile) which suggest low levels within the body. What you've said about needing lithium to get the b12 into cells fits perfectly. Also I've found I need magnesium supplements (& epsom salt baths, which contain magnesium) as well as potassium to stave off the brain fog - again fits with your comments on lithium.

I've recently experimented by taking 1 lithium tablet per week (5mg elemental lithium from 131mg lithium orotate) and notice significant improved energy the next day. It's been consistent over the last few weeks so might try dosing more frequently.

The only thing that's been holding me back is the potential thyroid link: I have very poor T4 -> T3 conversion from my recent blood test, although this is also a classic mercury clue. However I'll probably try upping the lithium a bit and see how it goes. I note that Cutler also suggests some people get significant benefit from low dose lithium supplements.

@Critterina - interesting article, and I was looking for this type of study. Although looking at the graphs (Figures 1, 2 & 3) I think the authors were a bit optimistic drawing any 'best fit' lines through the data points at all, so I'd be tempted to say the paper is inconclusive?

 

[npeden]

Hope someone has some input on this as I was considering taking lithium orotate but I cant afford to have anything slow down my thyroid.......I didn't know that about LO, where did you hear about that?

This study used lithium carbonate at 2x 450 mg.

I have no idea if that is a high dose or not though it sounds like one.

Yasko I believe may be the original source of this idea of using lithium orotate. I just started it to reduce glutamate which is in all my neuros. And my thyroid had just gotten to loveliness...do not if it is doing anything. I did not get an energy lift from it. I did fro two dropperfuls of kava kava but I can't do that or my liver can't do that.

 

[npeden]

Interesting. I have tried lithium arginate and felt a bit over-stimulated from it.
I wonder if there would be a difference with the lithium orotate?

Watch out for any thing with arginine in it. Read up on it. It is not rec. It unbalances lysine. So if you have herpes as I do it will reappear. Mine did till I read up on it and then noticed my geneticist having me on an arginine free diet. So do your research; yes it is stimulating. It is used by jocks to increase blood pumping them up and erectile dysfunction, among other things. I cannot take it. LO for me.

 

[npeden]

Lithium carbonate is a prescription med that is taken at much higher doses than lithium orotate.

And has a great many side effects such as diabetes and weight gain.

 

[npeden]

My problem is I do not know if I am over methylating. I have MTHFR c677t and my genetic nutritionist took me off of folinic acid and now I see Lynch also suggests this in the beginning. I have just gone through enormous stress which is not good for my diseases.

I am exhausted, sleep only about 6 hours a night with the help of gabapentin and cannabis, am chronically, long term nauseaous and recently went through enormous rage and fired my geneticist and will return to either Stanford if I can get in or my original less than thorough naturopath.

I will experiment tonite as I took some folinic in the am. I will now stop it. Nausea, rage and sleeplessnees and oh ya of course anxiety that is pretty controlled with keto diet and mag and inositol.

Does this sound like OVER methylation? I also take one or two 600 mg. of NAC a day and now a knowldegeable friend is saying it is not good either...I have high CRP still 6 months after monoxide poisoning and threats to evict me. What say anyone? Many thanks.

 

[pomegranate]

Hi, new here, but thought I could contribute my experiences with lithium.
It will constipate you, and I mean right now, but eating a raw carrot daily will fix that.
I take the LOW-DOSE litthium orotate, NOT the high dose lithium carbonate or whatever it's called, the one for psychiatric problems. They are two very different things.
I haven't really noticed much of a difference on it, except maybe I'm a little friendlier. But it's supposed to help with GABA/glutamate balance so I keep trying.

 

[pomegranate]

My problem is I do not know if I am over methylating. I have MTHFR c677t and my genetic nutritionist took me off of folinic acid and now I see Lynch also suggests this in the beginning. I have just gone through enormous stress which is not good for my diseases.

I am exhausted, sleep only about 6 hours a night with the help of gabapentin and cannabis, am chronically, long term nauseaous and recently went through enormous rage and fired my geneticist and will return to either Stanford if I can get in or my original less than thorough naturopath.

I will experiment tonite as I took some folinic in the am. I will now stop it. Nausea, rage and sleeplessnees and oh ya of course anxiety that is pretty controlled with keto diet and mag and inositol.

Does this sound like OVER methylation? I also take one or two 600 mg. of NAC a day and now a knowldegeable friend is saying it is not good either...I have high CRP still 6 months after monoxide poisoning and threats to evict me. What say anyone? Many thanks.

Have you considered pyroluria? I had rage and was a real edgy type. I had mild pyroluria.
Just my opinion, not worth the proverbial 2 cents, but the gabapentin can set you up for trouble, as it discourages your own GABA production and over time can stop helping, then I hear it's hard to come off of.
Cannabis, one of my early loves, but an endocrine disruptor.
You don't know me, I'm new on here, but I'm old in real life. Hope you get to feeling better.

 

[npeden]

I am known as one very effective dataminer or Google hound. I found it in forums and clinical studies. Always desperate to find something for sleep so today decided to look for it and some people really get better sleep with lithium.

please share. i, too, cannot sleep on my own.

 

[npeden]

Hi, new here, but thought I could contribute my experiences with lithium.
It will constipate you, and I mean right now, but eating a raw carrot daily will fix that.
I take the LOW-DOSE litthium orotate, NOT the high dose lithium carbonate or whatever it's called, the one for psychiatric problems. They are two very different things.
I haven't really noticed much of a difference on it, except maybe I'm a little friendlier. But it's supposed to help with GABA/glutamate balance so I keep trying.

so appreciate your reply! i am so f ing constipated since i added lithium orotate. but i feel fantastic as it potentiates my methyl b12! and my reading says th is is very important for comt esp.

i too am working on reducing glutamate. i feel the lithium helps but do worry about the iodine crap and carrots aint gonna get my bile producton/constipation snps. i use artichoke leaf tincture or beta tcp...thanks so much for the bowel blockage info.

 

[Natassha]

@npeden Would you say that using herbs such as kava, valerian, chamomile, passion flower, etc. on a regular basis would also cause the body to product less GABA and lead to withdrawal?

 

[PeterPositive]

@npeden Would you say that using herbs such as kava, valerian, chamomile, passion flower, etc. on a regular basis would also cause the body to product less GABA and lead to withdrawal?

@Natassha
Add Ashwagandha to that list, a very good (and pretty well studied) anti-anxiety herb which also helps the immune system and has interesting anti-stress properties. This will help with low level of GABA.

http://examine.com/supplements/Ashwagandha/

 

[ezma24]

It seems its reccomended for my gene mutations to take lithium, plus I have read it helps with sleep, mood and protects the brain from neurotoxins (very needed). But its a fact that lithium supresses thyroid function to some extent and I suspect some degree of thyroid problems. Anyone takes lithium per Yasko reccomendations having possible subclinical hypothyroidism or hashimoto´s?

can I ask what mutations indicate a need for lithium? Is it the same SNPs that correlate to B12? The MTRR

 

[Critterina]

can I ask what mutations indicate a need for lithium? Is it the same SNPs that correlate to B12? The MTRR

I found which genes indicated a need for Lithium in an old Promethease output that I ran on my genes. I had 10 out of my top 100 indicate Lithium. Obviously they were not all B12 and Folate cycle genes. You might try an analysis program on your genes to find out if it is indicated for you. Or check out PubMed.