lithium experiences

[heyitisjustin]

Let me clarify a bit. I was taking it in the morning (not with breakfast, as I do intermittent fasting daily), and feeling good throughout the day, but then I'd have that "tired but wired" feeling at night, and wouldn't be able to sleep.

I do have an update, now. Yesterday I tried an experiment. I thought that the tired but wired feeling might be a reaction to having the lithium out of my system, so I took it in the morning, then again in the evening with dinner. I slept very well!

I take it 3x/day. 10 mg with breakfast, 5 with lunch and 10 with dinner. It might be worth experimenting with size/number of doses (I have to do more myself). Please let me know if you find anything else out

 

[TJ_in_UT]

Sounds good. I might try 3x daily next week, but I'm going to see how well I do with 2x for now.

 

[Iritu1021]

Lithium affects thyroid hormone deiodination. It made my TSH go up at the same time as T3 went up and T4 went down.
I doubt that it was the timing of the day that affected your response. More likley is that you had a transient T3 hyperthyroidism and then your pituitary downregulated thyroid synthesis. How are you feeling now?

 

[TJ_in_UT]

How are you feeling now?

Right now, "tired but wired" again, but that's probably because I took a biofilm-busting enzyme too late in the day today. I seem too have many irons in the fire to always know what caused what, but my intuition always seems to sort things out eventually.

 

[Iritu1021]

I know what you mean - same here, I've never been good with just "one thing at a time". Good luck with your experimentation!

 

[TJ_in_UT]

I know what you mean - same here, I've never been good with just "one thing at a time". Good luck with your experimentation!

Yeah, guilty as charged.

 

[hangininthere]

My son and I take over-the-counter Lithium Orotate occasionally as needed for a day or two for our bipolar disorder. We just need it every few months or so, not often. We take one pill - "5 mg. (from 125 mcg. lithium orotate)" as it says on the pill bottle.

I take it when my thoughts are racing or grouchy. He takes it when he starts to go into a manic breakdown agitation. It snaps us both out of it same day. Lifts our mood to normal.

I've noticed that since taking Lithium Orotate occasionally as needed, I laugh at inane comedy movies and shows that I thought were stupid before. A pleasant improvement in my mood that lasts in between doses.

I don't take anything with Aspartate in the name on a regular basis, because it means it's an exitotoxin and will make me feel manic jittery in a bad way in both mind and body.

Only take Lithium Orotate.

Not Lithium Aspartate or Lithium Arginate.

I just remembered, I take a Multi-Amino Acid supplement once a week for my brain fog when I need to 'wake up' a bit for shopping. It has aspartic acid and arginine in it, both are exitotoxins. Once a week works, but if I took it every day I suspect I'd get too hyped up.

I get my Lithium Orotate from Vitacost site online.

A high dose of Magnesium Oxide snapped me right out of a 3 month long herbal-induced depression once - 1,000 mg. at bedtime. I just use the cheap magnesium oxide and it works for me.

I tried daily Magnesium Aspartate recently and got jittery and manic from it being an exitotoxin. I won't regularly take anything with aspartate in the name of it anymore, now that I know what to watch out for with that.

I use Kelp pills for iodine for a thyroid level boost. My friend had a severe reaction to it, that fight or flight feeling, after just one dose, and the reaction lasted for weeks, so can't take it for her hypothyroid.

Anything that gives me a bad reaction I stay off of forevermore. Except if it's a herx reaction, I just back off of it to let my system clear then can take it again sometimes successfully.

There was one supplement that I tried years later that now helps instead of hurts, but I forget which one it is now. So a re-try can work sometimes.

Once-a-day multi-vitamin and mineral pills always make me sick all over, just can't take them.

Patti

 

[TJ_in_UT]

It would be nice to be able to enjoy "inane comedy movies and shows" instead of feeling annoyed (or vicariously embarrassed).

 

[bond]

Ok, the same as @hangininthere I have my sense of humour back with lithium on the 20th day of supplementation(2.5mg LO in the morning) but I don't seem to be able to tolerate it anymore.
It seems like it activates the HPA axis for me(have the same symptoms as if I drink coffee), makes me jittery and nervous, messes with my sleep.

Those symptoms appeared 3 days after discontinuation of a B vitamin regimen consisting of P5P(16mg), B1(100mg), R5P(18mg), Panthothenic acid(250mg), Biotin(2500mcg), Niacin(50mg) where all were taken in the morning except for the Niacin. I wonder if those Bs could have helped me utilize the LO better but I now get stressed of it becase of other blocked pathways(for instance pantothenic acid has been advised in adrenal fatigue(HPA disregulation))

 

[TJ_in_UT]

I'm now taking 5 mg LO, 3x daily, and it seems to calm my nerves.

 

[Iritu1021]

Has any of you - not bipolar but those who took it for CFS and got "wired and tired" reaction tried micro-dosing lithium orotate at doses below 1 mg daily?
There are some research articles that looked at low ("neuroprotective") doses of Li supplementation, about 200 mcg per day and there appears to be a difference.
Personally, I suspect that a fine tuned balance of iodine and lithium is responsible for the balanced function of D2/D3 deiodinases in various tissues, which will determine how much T4 is converted into T3.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8981386

Also, in mice low doses of lithium have been shown to have different effect on deiodinases than high doses.

 

[Daffodil]

hi all. wonder if i could get some opinions...

i have declined quite a bit lately CFS-wise. the only change i made is: i have been taking lithium for depression (bipolar?) for the last couple of months by prescription 300 mg /day. i have lower than therapeutic levels in my blood.

does anyone know if this alone can make someone worse? i cannot take most other meds for depression due to my use of antibiotics..

decades ago, i remember low dose lithium helping with the CFS, actually

thanks
xo

 

[Iritu1021]

hi all. wonder if i could get some opinions...

i have declined quite a bit lately CFS-wise. the only change i made is: i have been taking lithium for depression (bipolar?) for the last couple of months by prescription 300 mg /day. i have lower than therapeutic levels in my blood.

does anyone know if this alone can make someone worse? i cannot take most other meds for depression due to my use of antibiotics..

decades ago, i remember low dose lithium helping with the CFS, actually

thanks
xo

Yes, I know for a fact that lithium interferes with proper thyroid function, which is usually already too low for most patients with CFS (however, it is usually missed due to hypothalamic dysfunction and falsely normal TSH levels). My thyroid function gets worse even on tiny doses of lithium, much lower than what you're taking. I can only tolerate lithium in conjunction with enough thyroid hormone.

 

[Daffodil]

Yes, I know for a fact that lithium interferes with proper thyroid function, which is usually already too low for most patients with CFS (however, it is usually missed due to hypothalamic dysfunction and falsely normal TSH levels). My thyroid function gets worse even on tiny doses of lithium, much lower than what you're taking. I can only tolerate lithium in conjunction with enough thyroid hormone.

thanks! that makes sense. not sure this is relevant, but after decades of this illness, my thyroid has nodules all over it. when I took lithium long ago, perhaps my thyroid was in better shape.

Another interesting thing...I have been waking up with terrible muscle cramping in my right calf. I read that being hypothyroid can cause muscle cramps...

Well if I come off lithium, there is not too much I can do about the depression, which can get severe. I am going to try rTMS soon

xo

 

[Iritu1021]

thanks! that makes sense. not sure this is relevant, but after decades of this illness, my thyroid has nodules all over it. when I took lithium long ago, perhaps my thyroid was in better shape.

Another interesting thing...I have been waking up with terrible muscle cramping in my right calf. I read that being hypothyroid can cause muscle cramps...

Well if I come off lithium, there is not too much I can do about the depression, which can get severe. I am going to try rTMS soon

xo

My depression was mainly due to hypothyroidism. In general, I suspect that most cases of CFS are mainly due to central nervous system hypothyroidism and HPA dysfunction. A short course of lithium seemed to have really helped me to repair brain damage that I've accumulated over the years (but as I said I could've never handled it without thyroid support).

Restoring thyroid hormone to the level that my CNS needed and balancing out my cortisol levels is what really did the trick for me. You may want to check out some of our other recent threads such as SPINA study in CFS, T1AM, the current thyroid hormones thread, as well as my blog (www.chronicfatiguediagnosis.com). I recommend Kenneth Blanchard's approach as outlined in his book "Functional Approach to Hypothyroidism" as none of the others seem to work well in our population.

 

[Daffodil]

@Iritu1021 thanks for the info. I keep meaning to look into the thyroid issue but somehow something always comes up and I never do it.

I did recover to about 35% for quite a while energy wise but have declined somewhat, again. My brain fog was always horrible.

Do you know which specific thyroid tests are reliable?

Thanks

 

[Iritu1021]

@Iritu1021 thanks for the info. I keep meaning to look into the thyroid issue but somehow something always comes up and I never do it.

I did recover to about 35% for quite a while energy wise but have declined somewhat, again. My brain fog was always horrible.

Do you know which specific thyroid tests are reliable?

Thanks

None of them are reliable, that's the problem. I thought it was pretty standard to check thyroid function before and after starting someone on lithium, did you doctor not do that?
You need to check TSH, free T3, free T4, rT3 and thyroid antibodies.
However, even if they all fall within normal range you might still benefit from thyroid hormone. It's been very effective for many patients with depression and chronic fatigue even if their hormones fall within the normal range. The blood lab findings do not reflect accurately what's going on in your brain.

 

[Daffodil]

None of them are reliable, that's the problem. I thought it was pretty standard to check thyroid function before and after starting someone on lithium, did you doctor not do that?
You need to check TSH, free T3, free T4, rT3 and thyroid antibodies.
However, even if they all fall within normal range you might still benefit from thyroid hormone. It's been very effective for many patients with depression and chronic fatigue even if their hormones fall within the normal range. The blood lab findings do not reflect accurately what's going on in your brain.

ah i see, thanks. yes they did the routine thryoid tests and they were normal.

i speak to my doc soon and i will ask his opinion. if he also says lithium can worsen us, i will stop the drug. at least i will be nice and thin again lol.
xo

 

[Misfit Toy]

as well as my blog (www.chronicfatiguediagnosis.com). I recommend Kenneth Blanchard's approach as outlined in his book "Functional Approach to Hypothyroidism" as none of the others seem to work well in our population.

I can't bring up your blog. I have no thyroid and I have developed severe fatigue. Do you know if taking lithium orotate would do the same thing as the actual drug? I hated lithium. I was on it years ago for depression and it made me so sick.

I am hypothyroid and now always will be.

 

[Iritu1021]

I can't bring up your blog. I have no thyroid and I have developed severe fatigue. Do you know if taking lithium orotate would do the same thing as the actual drug? I hated lithium. I was on it years ago for depression and it made me so sick.

I am hypothyroid and now always will be.

try this www.chronicfatiguediagnosis.com

lithium orotate is the one I was taking - so yes it does, especially if the dose is high enough.