Lack of chatter about the Ketogenic Diet

[DoggerFisher]

It does. Here in the US, too. But very worthwhile.

Ah. I don't have a tame physician.

 

[DoggerFisher]

@Learner1 is the one you are talking about? https://www.gdx.net/uk/product/nutreval

 

[Learner1]

Yes!

 

[Basilico]

Once we've got some more experience with the Ketones (which we are working on now, with diet variations and use of a precursor) I will post extensively about it. He took Ketones during a crash and it eliminated his PEM pretty immediately. We have to repeat that experiment to see if it was a one-time effect or possibly a new strategy for eradicating PEM.

Here is his post on his Ketones experiment:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...sed-activity-tolerance-and-reduced-pem.52639/

 

[anni66]

Sure you can loose weight with low fat, But , fat is essential, without it we die.

Even protein restriction can result in weight loss, but it's unsustainable. It will result in malnutrition, then death.

With carbohydrate restriction, the body adjusts to make its own.

More and more studies are being done with ketogenic diets for a variety of conditions, especially neurologic ones.

In ME, there are many neurologic symptoms.

I believe there is potential for a carefully guided ketogenic diet to aid ME patients.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3321471/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4617125/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4709725/

As some research has shown problems with glycolysis, ketogenic diets would make sense as it effectively bypasses this. naviaux' s study showed that there was a cohort who had problems with fat metabolism, ( mainly female) so it may not work for these people. Thyroid has impacts for fatburning, and it may be that treating hypothyroidism may enable ketosis.
Insulin resistance is complex as afipose tissues are involved in signalling, and insulin / sugar requires to he tracked . Check out

Sure you can loose weight with low fat, But , fat is essential, without it we die.

Even protein restriction can result in weight loss, but it's unsustainable. It will result in malnutrition, then death.

With carbohydrate restriction, the body adjusts to make its own.

More and more studies are being done with ketogenic diets for a variety of conditions, especially neurologic ones.

In ME, there are many neurologic symptoms.

I believe there is potential for a carefully guided ketogenic diet to aid ME patients.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3321471/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4617125/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4709725/

I think ketosis will work for those for whom glycolysis has been effectively shut down. There is another group - shown in the Naviaux study ( mainly female) who have problems with fat metabolism. This could be due to thyroid issues. Insulin resistance is complex, much of the early understanding was by Kraft.http://www.thefatemperor.com is a good site for explanations of mechanisms though it is a bit evangelical for low carb .

 

[Basilico]

As some research has shown problems with glycolysis, ketogenic diets would make sense as it effectively bypasses this.

In fact, my husband does well taking Ketones even though his own body never seems to start producing ketones endogenously, even when coupled with a strict keto diet. There is a very good chance that the metabolic problem is not limited to only the glycolysis pathway, it includes the ketone pathway, as well.

naviaux' s study showed that there was a cohort who had problems with fat metabolism, ( mainly female) so it may not work for these people.

I'm a female, and this is true for me; I did not respond to Ketones or a keto diet at all. I seem to process carbs better than fats. Interestingly, I also tend to feel better after I eat, while he often feels worse. I wonder if that is limited to us, or if that is common between men vs women.

 

[anni66]

It does make you wonder. I raised the thyroid aspect as this seems to be the case with my aunt who has severe ME - hypothyroidism is vastly undiagnosed. As this condition has so many feedback loops it' s difficult to pin down.

 

[ChrisD]

I have recently made a good attempt at Keto after following an LCHF diet for about a year and feeling much better than on a standard diet. I find it really difficult to keep carbs below 30g a day, most days around 50g minimum, but using MCT oil in bulletproof coffee as well meant that I was getting into light ketosis (Urine tested) but it's difficult for me to get deep into ketosis - I'm not sure why? maybe my body is using up the ketones for energy instantly?

My initial observations were: some Hypoglycemic symptoms including tingling in limbs - this subsided, Adrenal/cortisol spikes - continuing, the Pros being: definite improved energy and focus/brain fog reduction.

This diet holds so much promise for me yet I have tried a couple of times over the last month and the Adrenal/cortisol reaction has been a stumbling block as it then effects my sleep and I don't feel as calm/. I have read that the Adrenal glands require Carbohydrates.... does anyone have any clues?

 

[DoggerFisher]

i have to also supplement minerals and make a sugar free electrolyte mix to avoid the adrenalin thing. it continues to work for my brain. if i have lot of carb now i notice electric shocks and poor sleep adrenalin thingy. have stopped measuring everything.

 

[Isaiah 58:11]

Btw, Naviaux reported that women with ME/CFS have problems with beta oxidation i.e. making energy from fat. Before keto this wasn't an acute problem for me. After long-term keto my ability to extract energy from fat collapsed and I developed an intractable feeling of hypoglycaemia despite actually being mildly pre-diabetic (another consequence of long term low carbing for me was development of insulin resistance; prior to that diet my blood glucose was always normal). Having to depend on gluconeogenesis to maintain blood glucose level is another source of stress and energy depletion for the liver because the process costs you ATP. When my condition became severe my energy would drop to literally zero and I wasn't able to even stand up if I went without eating for more than a few hours. In other words, my ability to fast was completely obliterated. Given the documented problems with fat metabolism in women it's questionable how many here would be able to tolerate this fat-based diet.

We sound similar. I had hypoglycaemia since childhood and a year or two after onset started feeling terrible after eating, as if I had low glucose though I think you can feel terrible if it goes to high as well? Back then, my fasting glucose had climbed into the low 60s (it was lower before), but it now averages 89. On my last test my fasting insulin was 5, which I thought was good, but my doctor has said that I have loads of insulin resistance symptoms that are just kept under control by my "perfect" diet so I have now been put on Metformin. If I fast past 2 pm I start to feel like death; my muscles become painful and twitchy and it really seems as if I can feel them breaking down somehow (yes, I know a doctor would think that was psychological talk ). My doctor had me try a keto diet before medication and it seems I am completely unable to utilize ketones? My urine ketones went too high, too quickly. She says it is due to mitochondrial dysfunction.

The only explanation I have is that some people might have more or less dysfunction in the pyruvate/carb cycle than with the cycle that relies on ketones. This would explain why many don't do better on a keto diet - if they are low in some of the necessary precursors, they might be just as inefficient at using ketones as the are using pyruvate. Those who do better on a keto diet probably have a more efficient cycle and all the right precursors.

What are the precursors to using ketones?

Could it be that people who are feeling worse are not in full Ketosis? Without sounding ignorant, does everyone use Keto urine strips to monitor ketones?

I did use urine strips the times that I tried. By day 2 I was measuring higher than the purple '80' and very close, if not equal to, the brown '160.' After that I stopped and the next day had a family birthday celebration where I ate absolutely enormous amounts of pasta followed by cake and ice cream, then ate exactly the same thing (including the deserts) for a late meal before bed. I tested my urine at that point and had 0 ketones. After sleeping 12 or so hours to make up for the exertion, I tested my urine again and was back up the mauve '40.' I have no idea what this means exactly, But I expect that my body's metabolism is totally screwed.

In case you are wondering, as a test of the strips' accuracy I checked them while eating a regular and even lower carb diet a number of times and they were totally negative.

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This is *way* too much text for me to properly sort. If something doesn't seem to make sense please ask for clarification.

 

[belize44]

I am officially off the Keto diet after giving it my best shot for nearly three months. I am so much more tired and sick than before and I am really and truly puzzled about this. So for now, I have gone back to Ezekial bread and yams for carbs, as well as continuing to avoid gluten, pasta, white potatoes and sugar. I have fruit in low quantities, as well nuts and plenty of veggies. I have read so much about Keto that my head spins, but the bottom line is that it isn't working for me.

Before starting this diet, I would have occasional good days here and there, but now I don't even get those. My fatigue is much worse than before. I am truly disappointed because I thought I had finally found a good thing for myself after trying so many different strategies!

 

[ljimbo423]

I am officially off the Keto diet after giving it my best shot for nearly three months.

Hi belize44 - I tried a keto diet for about 2 months but I couldn't get past the dreaded keto flu! Something else I found out is that I go into ketosis when I get below only 70-80 grams of carbs a day.

Most people have to go much lower to achieve ketosis. It just goes to show how different our metabolisms are and that each of us need different protocols to feel better.

Jim

 

[belize44]

I am not sure that I should go below 80 grams, since I have felt severely ill since starting this diet. I think I do better with healthy carbs and lots of fresh, low sugar fruit and veggies. I never thought that I would be desperate to reach even my former level of illness!

 

[Bander]

I've been on a ketogenic diet for a little over three weeks and I thought I'd post my experiences so far.

I've been on this diet twice before. Each time I felt a surge of energy and alertness right away. It's really amazing that this simple change produces such a difference so quickly. In both of my previous times on this diet I took the increased energy as a signal that I should push to do more physical activity, particularly at the gym. I think that was not a wise choice, so this time I'm not changing my daily routine (I'm currently not going to the gym because I'm not convinced it is helpful).

I often have extremely high levels of triglycerides and my fasting glucose has generally been in the pre-diabetes range (although A1C is more controlled). Last month I got another super high reading for triglycerides, so I decided to go back on the diet. My triglycerides have been cut in half already and both my fasting glucose and A1C are significantly lower than they were.

I am concerned about the issue of bacteria in the gut and I recognize that some people believe that this diet can make that worse. When I first started reading about issues with the gut, I cut artificial sweeteners out of my diet and I felt it led to some improvement. I have been taking 5 Align probiotic capsules a day which sounds like a lot but is actually one half the dosage they gave CFS patients in a double-blind study that showed that it lowered markers for inflammation. I also have started to take digestive enzymes with each meal as recommended by Chris Armstrong at the Community Symposium put on by the Open Medicine Foundation last month at Stanford (I submitted a question about it and it was great to be able to hear his response).

These are early days, but so far I am pleased with the results. I just wish I knew whether it matters for CFS patients to keep their triglycerides under control.

 

[belize44]

That's great news, Bander! For myself, the first week I felt better but then it was downhill from there. I guess it is just not for everyone, but I hope you continue to have success!

 

[ChrisD]

I've just managed about 4-5 days Ketogenic (well, 40-50g carbs a day), I believe I was in Ketosis but was being quite careful as I have tried before and it played havoc with my adrenals (I think I mentioned it earlier in this thread), anyway this time I had a bit more success and I am hoping next time will be even better.

My main observations were that I had a much greater mental clarity, that general inflammation around the body seemed to be down, for example; my sinuses were soooo clear when they are usually much tighter and 'inflamed' - it made breathing exercises very pleasant.
I haven't slept very well the last four nights, waking up several times and never really feeling rested properly, yet somehow I have felt more refreshed than usual on my LCHF diet. I still think I need to get my carbs lower as they say to get them down to 20g a day to reach optimal ketosis - I was just concerned about my adrenals. But this time it was only by day 4 that I had adrenal/cortisol effects.
I'm planning to do a carb 'refeeding' day today as per the Bulletproof diet as i feel it might help me have a deep sleep, then I will phase back into LCHF and Keto on weekdays and see if that works well.

I definitely had a strong sense of healing when Keto, with plenty of MCTs in me from bulletproof coffee. There was an energising feeling in my muscles and heart?! and my head felt very clear, senses enhanced etc. So I am sold on Keto now, I just need to keep it up and make sure that it is doing more good than harm i.e. not affecting sleep cycle too much.....

 

[Gondwanaland]

I was just concerned about my adrenals

Since keto diet is diuretic, one needs to up the salt intake (& other electrolytes) e.g. by drinking vegetable broth (boil the vegetables with salt to taste, filter and discard the solids. You can add meat to the reciepe and eat it.

 

[CJB]

Since keto diet is diuretic, one needs to up the salt intake (& other electrolytes) e.g. by drinking vegetable broth (boil the vegetables with salt to taste, filter and discard the solids. You can add meat to the reciepe and eat it.

Thanks for mentioning this. Reading over some of the experiences here makes me think folks would have had better luck if they had increased sodium intake.

 

[TreePerson]

I haven't read the whole thread as I'm much too tired so apologies if this has already been discussed – if you were in the group of people, mainly women, who can't metabolise fats would you have high cholesterol? Does anyone know?

 

[OfcourseYouCanRevover]

Maybe because it is not resulting in many people getting better.

I have followed the diet you describe for a couple of years and while I did see a modest benefit initially, over time this disappeared. Eventually I realised that such a diet starves the gut microbiota and can't be recommended in the long term.

The addition of moderate amounts of carbohydrate in the form of starchy tubers as well as resistant starches makes more sense.

No it doesnt starve the gut.. you can eat fibre on keto