Kind of a miracle

[Katie]

I don't wish to attack any particular religion but the comments made in this thread kinda worry me and I'd like to post this video if anyone's interested in watching it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3VAEYEG53w

I don't wish to offend anyone Marlet, I just wish to distance myself from this prayer solving illness chat.

Believing a God will cure you or your family is dangerous.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/07/couple-sentenced-daughter-prayer-death
Why would a god cure one person and let another die?

Hey Knackered,

I remember watching that Youtube video years ago (and many responses, one guy in particular but I can't remember his name now), thanks for posting it up, it's a very well mannered argument though I don't think he gives Christians quite enough credit for the responses could give but I liked the questions he chose to ask and the way he resolves them for an atheistic view point. On a related note but a far less well mannered approach, have you ever seen any of George Carlins stand-up about prayer and religion? I can't post up what I'm thinking of because of the language but even though he dresses up his argument for comedy he makes a really good point.

I think it's agiven that believe in the healing power of God (or any God of your choice) and the healing power of prayer is not a universal belief on this forum and I hope that this diversity can be shown to anyone reading the board or this particular thread. I think it's difficult to step into a thread on any religion, especially when it involves someone we all think is lovely, and question it without it becoming personal. A healing story such as this is extreme, especially to non-Christian/non-believers, and it has negative associations. This doesn't necessarily stop anyone being happy for Rachel, (sorry to talk about you like you aren't here) but it doesn't sit comfortably with many people. A belief in the power of prayer cannot be solved scientifically because religion is inheritantly unscientific and mythical. If believing in God were fact, then it wouldn't be called faith - a quote by someone I don't remember.

 

[Knackered]

I don't think he gives Christians quite enough credit for the responses could give but I liked the questions he chose to ask and the way he resolves them for an atheistic view point.

I think because they usually all come down to the same old circular logic.

Something nice happens - God is great.
Something bad happens - What happens happens.

A doctor saves a life - God is great.
A person dies in hospital - What happens happens.

All the nice things in life are attributed to God whilst all the bad things are ignored.

George Carlins stand-up about prayer and religion?

One of my favourite comedians, he was great, such a shame he died.

 

[Luke]

I love the miracles... I love the science... computer says eek... goes off to watch Snog Marry Avoid.

Enjoy that remission Rachel! (not that I should imagine you need telling)

 

[Lesley]

Rachel,

I am so happy you are feeling well. Just please be kind to your body - not too many of those 11 hour days! I like to think that if I were suddenly well I would still take better care of myself than I did before. Easier said than done, I'm sure, when there is so much you have been missing.

Lesley

 

[froufox]

Hi Rachel

Congratulations on your recent healing!! I think its fantastic and I am really happy for you.

I really don't think it matters at all as to what triggered it whether it is a miracle from God or not and I don't think we should be worrying about who reads Rachel's story and uses it as ammunition against us to argue that ME isnt real as they already think that about us anyway and besides its only one story. Spontaneous recoveries don't come around very often and I think we should just be happy for Rachel and celebrate that this has happened for her.

I think that it is really important that everyone here should feel comfortable and safe enough to share their healing stories whatever the reasons for their recoveries and not feel worried about being judged or questioned or whatever.

Anyway Rachel I hope you're still feeling good and enjoying your new found energy! Look after yourself.

I wish you all the best.

 

[brenda]

You really have to wonder what motivates anyone who cannot just keep out of it on a thread like this, which can only be of interest to the Christians here, and to further insult them with video clips saying they are deluded and even worse that they harm society when the evidence is that some of the greatest men who ever lived, and great scientists at that, who believed in God

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html#9QvsK0XFVnIH

and that most of the help given to those in need comes from Christians and additionally, the moral standards which all enjoy in their socieites which enables them to lead safe lives, comes from Christianity.

Christians stay out of the Buddhists thread and are not hurling insults, why can't believers be left to thank God for this healing and to celebrate with Rachel. Some here are clinging onto the hope that they too will be healed. But there are those who would like them to lose this hope, and for what? What hope can they offer them?

God does not grow limbs because He will not force man to believe in Him. Belief comes from the heart and not the mind. A hardened heart will not believe any evidence in front of its eyes.

 

[Martlet]

but it doesn't sit comfortably with many people.

Katie, I don't want to start an argument here, but why does this sit less comfortably than the discussion on Buddhism that has run in this forum for months? The belief in reincarnation doesn't sit comfortably with Christians, but I will defend with all my being the right of Buddhists to believe in and discuss their faith in a public forum. It seems (please correct me if I am wrong) that it is Christianity, rather than religion, that doesn't sit well with atheists. A friend of mine in the UK carries a crystal around with her because she believes with all her heart that it keeps her ME from getting worse. What if she came here and talked about it? Would people be jumping all over her? I suspect that the general attitude would be - at worst - "that's very nice for you," then people would move on.

 

[Knackered]

No one's attacking Rachael or Christianity in this thread and I hope no one does, people are free to believe what they like, but if a person who has the same illness as me says god's curing them on a public forum, I think I have the right to reply and have an opinion about it. Especially considering certain people think our illness is a mental health issue.

 

[Martlet]

I am also thankful that you related your Jesus dream and the subsequent removal of your husband's malignant mole. It feeds and fans the hope within me.

Thank you for saying so, Snez.

 

[Martlet]

Knackered - Of course you have the right to reply. I just don't know why you'd want to. If someone said they were healed by a crystal, I'd just leave them to their belief. And oddly enough, so would any psychiatrist worth his salt because religious belief is not seen as a psychiatric illness. And FWIW, my daughter is an astro-physicist. Her knowledge has only strengthened her faith.

Now, as a Brit, I know that the English have never been comfortable with discussions about religious beliefs, but here in the USA, it is not at all unusual for people to speak openly, and I am not just talking about the religious "right". Only the other night on the news, the newscaster ended a tragic story by saying, "Our prayers go out to his family," so please know that not everyone shares that British reluctance to talk about faith matters.

Edit: And when Pope John Paul II was here in St Louis in 1999, the weather suddenly warmed up ahead of his arrival until we had 70F in the midst of January. As his plane took off, snow began to fall. The weathermen were calling it "the weather miracle."

 

[brenda]

Saying that one does not agree with Rachel's belief that God has healed her is a bit different to putting a video clip on that says that Christians are deluded and damage society and that believing God will cure you is dangerous. Surely Rachel is entitled to her beliefs anyway and considering the circumstances, one has to think of your reaction which is an attack despite your protests to the contrary, is entirely inappropriate in putting a dent in someones happiness.

 

[Esther12]

I've not watched the video clips, but my own responses were directed at claims that prayer has been shown to be effective through double-blind trials - which I don't think is true. If someone was claiming the same about crystals, homeopathy, Islamic Jinn or anything else then I'd like to think that I'd take the time to do the same.

Any recovery's to be celebrated, even if those of us who've not improved may feel a little selfish jealousy at the same time.

 

[Katie]

Katie, I don't want to start an argument here, but why does this sit less comfortably than the discussion on Buddhism that has run in this forum for months? The belief in reincarnation doesn't sit comfortably with Christians, but I will defend with all my being the right of Buddhists to believe in and discuss their faith in a public forum. It seems (please correct me if I am wrong) that it is Christianity, rather than religion, that doesn't sit well with atheists. A friend of mine in the UK carries a crystal around with her because she believes with all her heart that it keeps her ME from getting worse. What if she came here and talked about it? Would people be jumping all over her? I suspect that the general attitude would be - at worst - "that's very nice for you," then people would move on.

I didn't say this sat less comfortably than Buddhism, I don't know where you're getting that from, what I said is that the concept of miraculous healing is foreign and impossible for non-believers just as you have described your feelings about reincarnation. I do not see a problem here as we agree with both of our example. I also have never in any way, shape or form said that this should not be discussed and I have actively ensured that this type of topic can be discussed in future by moving this thread to another forum and raising the option of making that forum members only. This is to ensure that not only this thread continues, that Rachel is more protected from this being picked up elsewhere and that more of these threads can appear in the future about whichever faith-system. I have a strong belief in free speech, you have also seen my judgement regarding moderation and have seen it in practice.

I am an atheist and I can tell you that I have no bone to pick with religion when it is practiced peacefully and out of the public system (for example I do not approve of faith schools but Christian charities are fine as long as they don't have the monopoly on any local service). Whilst some atheists may have an issue with Christianity, I do not and it is not wise to lump us all together, we are not all Richard Dawkins. I am extremely tolerant and accepting of people's right to choose and practice their religion and trust that my choice will be respected in return. I do not have a problem with Rachel sharing her story but it cannot be expected that everyone embrace this idea and other opinions need to be tolerated as well as Christian opinions. This is a forum where you open up your experiences for all to comment, this is to be expected and it has been respectful, including Knackered's youtube video which although provocative perhaps, it is within the rules and rights of free speech. You can choose to tolerate this and ignore. Maybe this isn't the right place for a debate on healing because it is unresolvable, but I do not want this to become a forum where only certain religions are welcome in certain threads, this is not in the spirit of this forum.

I will read replies to this but may not respond as this takes a lot of energy that I'd rather use for other things and I like a lot of people here and I don't want to fall out with anyone because of this, especially you Martlet. We are very different people but we both believe in this forum and the people it is home to and I hope that although we come from different view points we are united by our belief in free speech, support and strength of character.

I will respond if I am misunderstood and need to clarify myself again.

Katie

 

[Navid]

calling people delusional is unnecessary (video)

Saying that one does not agree with Rachel's belief that God has healed her is a bit different to putting a video clip on that says that Christians are deluded and damage society and that believing God will cure you is dangerous. Surely Rachel is entitled to her beliefs anyway and considering the circumstances, one has to think of your reaction which is an attack despite your protests to the contrary, is entirely inappropriate in putting a dent in someones happiness.

hi:

I was one of the original posters a bit concerned about Rachel's post. Not because of God or miracles but rather because at this VERY moment, we are in the midst of a huge effort to finally have definitive proof that CFID's/ME is a physical illness and needs to be dealt with medically and scientifically. This website has become a large source of information and discussion regarding XMRV and I am afraid postings of miracles healing our disease, while perhaps true, detract from the important goal of validating this disease.

I felt more comfortable when the post was moved to the community area of the board.

On the other hand i did watch the first video posted by knackered...at first i liked the video... found it compelling and interesting, but then was shocked by the ending where Christians and other believers in God are called delusional...I do think this is offensive to believers and do not feel it is appropriate for this site.

I think if there were videos calling other groups (other religions, disabled ppl, ppl of color, gays, atheists, agnostics...etc) delusional many would be upset...

So much to my surprise I am in agreement w/Brenda's post quoted above.

regards, lisa

 

[Martlet]

Katie - I asked the question. I did not make accusations. I think it understandable that some of us are wondering why it is suddenly important to hide religious discussion from public view when it never was before and do not understand the tone of your response. I am a Christian, but I am also very tolerant of everyone's religious views as well as those of atheists.

but I do not want this to become a forum where only certain religions are welcome in certain threads, this is not in the spirit of this forum.

Exactly! None of the Christians here are suggesting that people of other faiths should be prevented from speaking, or that people with other faith views should have their discussions hidden from public view lest it sway the likes of Wessely. It may have missed your notice, but I have put a lot of effort into helping to make this forum the sort of community that you claim to want it to be - including permitting people to share their religious opinions in full view. What has been required is that it be done respectfully and I hardly think that linking to a video that calls a full 76% of Americans and roughly half the population of the UK "delusional" shows respect.

 

[Katie]

Kim moved my explanation for moving this thread to the community lounge to start a new topic about members only. Here's what I wrote, originally it was on page 2.

What I think will be best to please all parties is for this thread to be moved to the Community Lounge section and that we make that section a *member only* section (which has been discussed before). That way we can still have posts where people of different religious beliefs can share their stories but also reduce the amount of Tom, Dick and Harry's having a look.

CFS is a mixed bag of illnesses, we do not all have the same disease, but that doesn't make one illness worse than the other, we're each bound to our own experience and the grave effects our illnesses have had on us. Whilst I am not a believer in miracles I am certainly happy that Rachel has made any form of breakthrough with whatever was wrong, short term or long term.

 

[Knackered]

What has been required is that it be done respectfully and I hardly think that linking to a video that calls a full 76% of Americans and roughly half the population of the UK "delusional" shows respect.

I didn't post the video with the aim of calling people delusional. The theme of the video was on topic and raised some points regarding whether a god does or does not heal people.

It is a good video but I don't think the end serves any purpose other than to antagonize religious people, I dont think the approach of telling people they're delusional is a good tactic.

 

[brenda]

Neither is filling up a thread with cynicism which has been started by someone who wants to share the good news of her healing a good tactic when you could have started one of your own if you want to debunk a major religion.

 

[Knackered]

Neither is filling up a thread with cynicism which has been started by someone who wants to share the good news of her healing a good tactic when you could have started one of your own if you want to debunk a major religion.

If some people didn't think our illness was psychological and the exact cause was found I wouldn't have responded.
Don't turn this in to an argument please.

 

[brenda]

You did that yourself Knackered. How about removing the offending video?