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Is "Unrefreshing Sleep" actually too refreshing?

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,684
Location
Alberta
Lately I've been waking up feeling really groggy and sluggish, feeling like "I need more sleep.". Once I manage to drag myself out of bed and move around a bit, that feeling fades. Is that normal for genuine lack of sleep in healthy people (I can't remember)? Also, that feeling isn't worse if I get too little sleep (insomnia is common) and isn't reduced if I manage to sleep extra long. Thus, it doesn't really fit the hypothesis of defective sleep.

As I understand it, lack of sleep can dampen perceptions. So, is it possible that we're actually getting properly refreshing sleep, which sharpens our perceptions in a way that makes us feel like we have symptoms similar to lack of sleep? I haven't considered this hypothesis in depth, so I thought I'd ask the rest of those with "unrefreshing sleep" whether their symptoms and responses to various factors, such as sleep duration or changes after exertion, fits this hypothesis better?

I just thought of another hypothesis: we aren't clearing out the melatonin or related sleep chemicals properly. Melatonin tablets may help me fall asleep, but they also make me feel really groggy, like I didn't have enough sleep, so that might be supporting evidence. I suppose this hypothesis is testable, if an MRI scan can measure melationin levels in the brain.

Third hypothesis: we don't produce the "wake-up" chemicals fast enough or to an adequate level. Waking up isn't as simple as the melatonin being used up. There must be hormones or other neurochemicals involved. This should be testable too.
 

Judee

Psalm 46:1-3
Messages
4,461
Location
Great Lakes
I'm like never refreshed so I don't understand how that could mean too refreshed.

I did read something on Sue Jackson's website that I had never heard before:

Sleep Dysfunction in ME/CFS
Why do ME/CFS patients feel like we are half-awake all night and still exhausted in the morning? Traditional sleep studies comparing ME/CFS patients to healthy controls often find no measureable differences in our sleep cycles, though some show reduced total sleep time and sleep efficiency. Newer studies, using entirely different ways of measuring sleep, though, are finding that ME/CFS patients have more disruptions in REM sleep and deep stage (3 & 4) sleep. Our brains will sometimes jump right from REM or even deep stage sleep into being awake or in light Stage 1 sleep, instead of cycling through each stage, as is normal. These REM disruptions in the studies correlated with worse symptoms the next day.

https://livewithcfs.blogspot.com/2023/03/correcting-sleep-dysfunction-in-mecfs.html
 
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Messages
184
Wishful, along those lines I have something similar. Around 10 years ago I finally got a sleep study for sleep apnea from my horrid managed care. I did not need them to tell me I had sleep apnea, I had been telling them that for years. Anyway, when I miss the cpap machine one night, I feel the same the next morning as I do when I have a full night of CPAP. In other words, the CPAP does not make me feel any more energized. One is supposed to feel better in the AM after CPAP. I do not. I am one of the fortunate ones that is not bothered in the least by wearing the cpap mask for sleep. Lucky me!
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,251
which sharpens our perceptions in a way that makes us feel like we have symptoms similar to lack of sleep?

this "might" also be involved...could this be factored in through Sickness Behavior ? (our body's is Perceiving the lack of Sleep through that Sickness Behavior Mechanism)

And do NOT Get up today is OFTEN the report I receive.

I don't know if others do this but I get up and go back to sleep MANY times from 6-7 am on.

I can get up at 9:30, use the bathroom and just go pass out for another hour.

I can tell its PEM because its 10 am and I still have NO DESIRE to stand, move or do a single thing.
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,251
Lately I've been waking up feeling really groggy and sluggish, feeling like "I need more sleep.".



Stagnation and desiccation seem to be the hallmarks of this illness. Every herb I take is associated with those types of phenomenon.

Blood stagnant, lymph, so figure CSF is stagnant, too.

Dried out. I really cannot get over how desiccated I am. (a thirst never quenched)

How can things flow if dried out?

How can things flow if collagen is being consumed?

Collagen is STRUCTURE which allows things to flow within the STRUCTURE

___
I think when we wake up eventually, the level of stagnation is quite high, but the body energy is somewhat returned as Yin is nourished when sleeping.

About two hours after I get up is the Best I'll Feel for the Day. that might last two hours if lucky.
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,684
Location
Alberta
I'm like never refreshed so I don't understand how that could mean too refreshed.

:) What I meant was that our sleep could not just restore some levels of chemicals, but could push them past the normal limits, resulting in problems that "feel" like not enough sleep. Most medical experts seem to hear "I wake up feeling like I didn't get enough sleep" and jump to the conclusion that we're not sleeping enough, or deeply enough. I'm questioning that assumption with a different perspective. The sleep may be more or less fine, but there may be problems in the "waking up again" stage.

I had insomnia last night, and noticed that I felt better after only 5 hrs of sleep than I usually do after 8 or 9 hrs of sleep. That doesn't fit the hypothesis of "our sleep isn't refreshing".

Our brains will sometimes jump right from REM or even deep stage sleep into being awake or in light Stage 1 sleep, instead of cycling through each stage, as is normal.

That's what my sleep has been like for years: I keep fully waking up every 90 minutes rather than the normal end of that cycle, which is somewhat similar to waking, but not actually waking.
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,684
Location
Alberta
I'll add that my waking every 90 minutes can be blocked/prevented by taking CLAs, so it's some biological process involving fatty acids Fatty acids do a lot more than just act as fuel, so it's hard to figure out why they are affecting sleep patterns.
 

Belbyr

Senior Member
Messages
602
Location
Memphis
My newest Garmin watch tells me I get poor REM sleep but Deep and Light sleep are typically pretty good.

One night about 5 months ago I decided to have a small drink of whiskey before bed and the REM sleep was terrible! and I felt terrible too, so it makes sense.
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,684
Location
Alberta
I had longer than usual sleep last night, and today I feel a bit worse than when I had too little sleep.

Another view of "unrefreshing sleep" is that it's a 24/7 symptom that feels something like lack of sleep but really has nothing to do with sleep, and that more or less sleep can change our perceptions of how severe it is.
 
Messages
759
Location
Israel
I'll add that my waking every 90 minutes can be blocked/prevented by taking CLAs, so it's some biological process involving fatty acids Fatty acids do a lot more than just act as fuel, so it's hard to figure out why they are affecting sleep patterns.

What does CLA stand for?
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,684
Location
Alberta
CLA = conjugated linoleic acid. It's found in ruminant fat, dairy, Evening Primrose Oil, Safflower oil, and probably a few other sources. It worked well for me at first: having a steak well-marbled with fat let me sleep around 5 hrs without waking. Now, if I avoid CLAs for a week or so, a tsp of safflower oil might allow me to skip the first 90-minute waking, but that's all. Nasty ME's habit of adapting to treatments, grumble, grumble. :grumpy:
 

lenora

Senior Member
Messages
4,913
Yes, alcohol definitely affects the sleep cycle of most of us. We fall asleep easily and then awaken an hour later...and that's it for the night.

I really haven't touched alcohol for years (one first notices it in the middle years). Funny thing is that I don't miss it one bit. My husband is the same. In our younger years we did imbibe, so we're not against it. Lenora