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Increasing GABA naturally

gbells

Improved ME from 2 to 6
Messages
1,491
Location
Alexandria, VA USA
@gbells , @SmokinJoeFraz93
These played merry hell with my anxiety, particularly green tea and theanine, and adding to stressed, imbalanced GABAa receptors with any kind of GABAa stimulator is generally a very bad idea, will further down-regulate GABAa receptors, and will bite you hard in very sensitive places ......

As I think I've already said somewhere here, oral GABA has a very hard time crossing the BBB ......

Picamilon is fairly addictive fairly quickly, and carries its own difficulties ....

You can decaffenate the teas by steeping them for 30 sec then removing the tea ball and dump the water. The next steep cup will be decaf until you're finished with the batch.

I love tea. Previously I could only tolerate decaf. As I got better I can tolerate more caffeine. I just ordered this from wish.

5c08e22026f73e2235c9bcb9

https://www.wish.com/product/5c08e22026f73e2235c9bcb9
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
GABAa receptors with any kind of GABAa stimulator is generally a very bad idea, will further down-regulate GABAa receptors, and will bite you hard in very sensitive places

Yes, in treating generalized anxiety disorder (GAD), approaching GAD from the GABA angle (whether by drugs or supplements) usually leads to the problems of tolerance/addition, and later sometimes horrible withdrawal problems (in the case of benzodiazepines, or the supplement phenibut).

So instead of trying to stimulate the GABA receptors, inhibiting NMDA receptors may be a better option, as NMDA is not really subject to tolerance, addition and withdrawal issues like GABA is.

GABA and NMDA are the two sides of a seesaw: NMDA activation will stimulate neurons, whereas GABA activation will relax neurons. So if you want to relax neurons (which is the key to treating GAD), you can approach this from either the GABA and NMDA side.

Unfortunately there are not many good NMDA antagonists around. But one good NMDA blocker is high dose transdermal magnesium cream (applied from head to toe). That I found has noticeable anti-anxiety effects, by blocking NMDA receptors (oral magnesium is not sufficient, as you cannot absorb high enough doses orally due to bowel tolerance).



But if you really want to get to the root cause of your generalized anxiety disorder, my theory (detailed here) is that GAD is often caused by high levels of glutamate pumped out by activated microglia in an inflamed brain (glutamate activates NMDA receptors). The quinolinic acid produced by brain inflammation may also activate NMDA receptors.

So if glutamate from brain inflammation is a root cause of GAD (which is my hypothesis), then reducing brain inflammation should reduce anxiety levels.

And indeed, using anti-brain inflammation supplements (particularly the star supplement N-acetyl-glucosamine) was the most effective approach I found for treating my moderate to severe GAD. See this thread for full details:

Completely eliminated my severe anxiety symptoms with three supplements!
 
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Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
Lavender activates NDMA glutamine receptors

A quick Google check indicates the main ingredient in lavender, linalool, is an NMDA antagonist. So that is one likely mechanism by which lavender reduces anxiety. Although I believe people usually use lavender by aromatherapy, rather than oral ingestion, so the doses administered are not going to be high.

I found that lavender by aromatherapy only had very mild anti-anxiety effects, and barely put a dent in the often severe levels of generalized anxiety disorder I had.
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
@gbells
You can decaffenate the teas
I discovered that it wasn't just the caffeine, I was drinking decaf green tea after I developed a horrendous reaction to coffee, which I still miss like a lost limb.... it was the theanine, at least for me

As I got better I can tolerate more caffeine
I'm hoping for that, as well ..... been experimenting with brewed decaf coffee (still has a 3-5% caffeine load, so some energy boost), and after several months of that, seem to be able to tolerate fresh brewed decaf 2 days or so a week ..... it's a start ..... thanks for the tip re decaffeinating the tea, it was a very kind thought .....:):)

@Hip
approaching GAD from the GABA angle (whether by drugs or supplements) usually leads to the problems of tolerance/addition, and later sometimes horrible withdrawal problems
Totally, totally, TOTALLY agree ....

inhibiting NMDA receptors may be a better option, as NMDA is not really subject to tolerance, addition and withdrawal issues like GABA is.
And again, complete agreement ....it's not just a better option, for me it was the only option .... that and eliminating every possible source of exogenous glutamate, including all foods and even the gel caps with Vit E, Vit D, sunflower lecithin, etc .... it's been hellish but it's been working and have found some liquid drops replacements for some of the supps .....

But one good NMDA blocker is high dose transdermal magnesium cream (applied from head to toe
Transdermal did zip for me, even after covering myself with it, not comfortable and as it turned out, not effective in my case .....

oral magnesium is not sufficient,
I found a way to make it work, and it effing saved my life ..... 50 mgs of mag glycinate (the least likely to cause bowel effect) every hour, or sometimes every 20-30 mins if I was in the throes of bad panic/anxiety attacks. It not only tamped down the panic attack already in motion to almost bearable levels, over time it slowly eliminated them except for rare little flares now and then.....Drs, of course, wanted to put me on Xanax or Ativan or an assortment of other benzos. I refused, had to find my own way.

GAD is often caused by high levels of glutamate pumped out by activated microglia in an inflamed brain (glutamate activates NMDA receptors)
Again, couldn't agree more .... eliminating exogenous glutamate started me on the right path, and I just kept researching, reading, experimenting..... the mag was the next step, which seemed to quiet the brain inflammation effects but it took time and patience. And a complete, stubborn (at least as far as the Drs were concerned)unwillingness to be lured down the benzo path ....

So if glutamate from brain inflammation is a root cause of GAD (which is my hypothesis),
Again, totally right on, at least based on my experience ....

See this thread for full details:
I devoured your thread three or four times, it just made sense and correlated with what I was doing that seemed to be showing results ..... your thread was one of the reasons I joined up here, and I'm so grateful I did .... not all of it worked for me, but it opened the doors of perception ..... thank you so much for that, @Hip
 
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YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
I found that lavender by aromatherapy only had very mild anti-anxiety effects, and barely put a dent in the often severe levels of generalized anxiety disorder I had
@Hip
Again, and this must be getting really boring, totally agree ... I've been using lavender oil aromatherapeutically as well as for burns, cuts, scrapes, rashes etc, for decades, and while I love it, it did zip-a-dee-doo-dah for my severe panic/anxiety. Soooooo, a miracle for some things, useless for others, in spite of all the breathless bloggers gushing input .....
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
And indeed, using anti-brain inflammation supplements (particularly the star supplement N-acetyl-glucosamine)
@Hip
Haven't had the courage to try NAG yet, am reveling in the absence of severe crippling anxiety attacks (I have the feeling that you totally know what that's like), but based on your rec, will be giving it a try in the very near future .... thanks for reminding me ..... I think I need to go back and reread your thread, yet again .....:):):) :thumbsup::thumbsup: :hug::hug:
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
Transdermal did zip for me, even after covering myself with it, not comfortable and as it turned out, not effective in my case .....

Yes, magnesium cream (which is actually just magnesium chloride crystals dissolved in water, which for some reason has an oily texture) is pretty itchy on the skin I found. So I use magnesium sulfate (Epsom salts), which I don't find itches at all.

In terms of potency, in those horrible years where my anxiety varied from moderate to severe, depending on the day, I would often apply a saturated solution of magnesium sulfate from head to toe, two or three times a day. But that would only take the edge of the anxiety a bit, but it did nothing major.

However, I used magnesium sulfate in combination with lots of other anti-anxiety supplements that I found, through trial and error, had some effect. Then in combination, all these supplements taken simultaneously might reduce my anxiety levels by say 30% at best. So they took the edge of the anxiety, but by no means eliminated it.

Only later in 2012, purely by accident, did I discover the potent anti-anxiety effects of NAG. That was a turning point for me, and it was the first time since my generalized anxiety disorder began (after a viral brain infection in 2005) that I was able to return to some semblance of normality.



eliminating every possible source of exogenous glutamate

Do you find exogenous glutamate worsens your anxiety?

I've not noticed any worsening of anxiety from glutamate sources, including Parmesan cheese and monosodium glutamate (MSG). In fact I bought a packet of pure MSG powder to test, and ate a load of it, but I noticed nothing. Glutamate in the blood does not cross the blood-brain barrier, so dietary glutamate should not be able to affect the brain (unless perhaps you have a leaky blood-brain barrier — you can check for BBB leakiness by the GABA challenge test).



I devoured your thread three or four times, it just made sense and corelated with what I was doing that seemed to be showing results ..... your thread was one of the reasons I joined up here, and I'm so grateful I did .... not all of it worked for me, but it opened the doors of perception ..... thank you so much for that, @Hip

Glad you found those threads useful. They were borne out of pure desperation, and the hellish suffering that only those with severe GAD know about!

It usually observed that those with severe GAD spend the entire day trying to find (usually unsuccessfully) solutions for their horrendous anxiety, and that's what I did every day, for around 7 years. I tried everything I could to reduce anxiety levels. Finally in 2012 I discovered by accident this miracle that is NAG.



Haven't had the courage to try NAG yet, am reveling in the absence of severe crippling anxiety attacks (I have the feeling that you totally know what that's like),

Oh yes, I can totally sympathize and empathize. Anxiety is a really horrible thing.

Though when you say "anxiety attacks", does that mean you have panic disorder (PD) rather than generalized anxiety disorder (GAD)?

PD involves "panic attacks" which come out of the blue, and typically last for 5 to 20 minutes (though sometimes as long as 2 hours), but then disappear entirely, and the anxiety is then over (until the next attack). There is often an adrenaline surge and tachycardia with PD.

Whereas GAD involves more-or-less constant anxiety, which is present all day, every day (although its severity can vary from day to day).


As far as I am aware, NAG can work very well for GAD, but I have not had any reports or feedback of it working for PD. PD is a slightly different form of anxiety disorder to GAD.

All the supplements I list in my threads are for GAD, rather than any other type of anxiety disorder.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
I found a way to make it work, and it effing saved my life ..... 50 mgs of mag glycinate (the least likely to cause bowel effect) every hour, or sometimes every 20-30 mins if I was in the throes of bad panic/anxiety attacks.

That's very interesting. I will have to try magnesium glycinate.

I wouldn't think it's the magnesium in magnesium glycinate that's having the anti-anxiety effect for you, because even if 50 mg are taken every hour for the whole day, that will not amount to much magnesium (magnesium glycinate contains only around 24% magnesium, so your total daily magnesium will be only around 200 mg).

Though I read just now that magnesium glycinate increases serotonin, so maybe that's how it leads to anti-anxiety benefits (serotonin has anti-anxiety effects).

If increasing serotonin works for you, you might also consider high-dose inositol (2 heaped teaspoons of pure inositol powder daily), as that is a good serotonin booster. 5-HTP might also be worth trying for raising serotonin.
 

percyval577

nucleus caudatus et al
Messages
1,302
Location
Ik waak up
@SmokinJoeFraz93, I found always oranges very helpful
since I got acroos the information that they would contain huge glutamte which would be turned into gaba,
a miracle though is why the glutamate doesn´t act on glutamate receptors
which are directly the opposite of gaba receptors?

I havn´t asked futrther so far (only being thankfull that it works),
I havn´t read the thread also.

Here a link, I havn´t read the paper already ...
Travagli 2012
 
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YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
:)@Hip
I used magnesium sulfate
I soaked in heavily dosed Esom Salt baths daily, didn't notice much effect but I was so bad then that it's hard to recall ....

I was able to return to some semblance of normality.
I know how good that must have felt ..... and I can't tell you how good it makes me feel to see "normality" as opposed to the grotesque remnant from Pres Harding, I think, "normalcy" ...... :trophy::trophy::trophy:

Do you find exogenous glutamate worsens your anxiety?
Absolutely ..... and I found that cutting it out entirely really helped start the lengthy, still on-going, healing process .... it was entirely intuitive, and started with having to stop the lecithin gels ..... then the Vit D, I think, then the E ... then I was afraid to take anything, and converted to veg-capsuled supplements only. I also had to stop all herbs and things like turmeric for a while, tho I'm edging back into them slowly.

The only things I never stopped taking were ginger and cinnamon. Much later, I found a research study from India, if I'm remembering right (and I think you can guess the odds of that) that spent 2 whole paragraphs on cinnamon and it's ability to cut glutamate / excitotoxicity reactions. Not sure by how much, but I still take it every morning (Ceylon cinnamon only, all the others have a shite-load of coumarin, especially Vietnamese, so not good for steady dosing) with potassium and ginger in hot--ish water .... it's a not unpleasant way to limp into the day with the feeling that your giving yourself every edge and corner you can.

Glutamate in the blood does not cross the blood-brain barrier, so dietary glutamate should not be able to affect the brain
Granted. But it does something sneaky with the citric acid cycle, which converts it into something that can cross the BBB, where it slides in and starts hammering on the NMDA system, and there you go. This is a layman's grossly simplistic translation of intensely unreadable studies, diagrams, and charts. But fro personal experience, I can attest to it's deadly effect.

you can check for BBB leakiness by the GABA challenge test).
Will do that over the weekend, assuming I can get some sleep and regenerate more than 3 brain cells and the usual empty clanking, whirry, sounds.

They were borne out of pure desperation, and the hellish suffering that only those with severe GAD know about!
It's a terrific piece of work, Hip, and greatly appreciated. And I know that driven feeling. LIke you, I've lived in it for years, falling deeper into desperation and despair, then rebounding as something unexpectedly seemed to work, then suddenly stopped, then falling again. It's a very particular, precise little slice of hell. You have my deep respect. You not only got thru it, you produced some extremely worthwhile investigative treatment protocols that you generously chared with all of us here, and that will help a lot of others for a very long time.

It usually observed that those with severe GAD spend the entire day trying to find (usually unsuccessfully) solutions for their horrendous anxiety, and that's what I did every day, for around 7 years.
I've only been at it for the last 3 or so .... I spent of lot time not knowing what was happening to me .... the fatigue, the bone deep weariness, the sleep that, when I could get it, neither refreshed nor restored, the spastic muscles, the massive anxiety/panic (I use this form to express it because I really don't know which it is, and I'm sure as shite not going to another doctor to find out), the sudden onset agoraphobia, I could go on and on, but you're already familiar with all this.

Though when you say "anxiety attacks", does that mean you have panic disorder (PD) rather than generalized anxiety disorder (GAD)?
Not a clue.

PD involves "panic attacks" which come out of the blue
Whereas GAD involves more-or-less constant anxiety, which is present all day, every day (although its severity can vary from day to day).
The best I can offer by way of explanation is a thumbnail of what it was like ..... the onset was fairly sudden, starting without warning, them ramping up from unpleasant to un-effing-endurable, all day, every day. The worst one lasted for a solid 22 hrs, nonstop, and it was a chest-ripping, heart pounding, tremoring, head exploding, screaming, sweating horror.

That's the one that sent me to the emergency room after the first 10 hours because I couldn't believe this wasn't going to kill me. After the inept nurse ripped apart the last good vein in my body (a year of chemo, 3 years of follow up, uncounted blood draws, infusions, experimental drug infusions, neupogen, epogen, and a month in the hospital with a patient controlled pain meds IV had pretty much ruined all the veins I had except for this one) causing an impressive geyser of almost vertically ascending blood while she slid quietly out of the room, not to be seen again, and the attnding physician wrote me off as a drug seeker and scribbled a script for Ativan, I walked out, or rather leaned on my husband out, before he'd finished signing it.

This started about a year of intense repeat performances, all lasting all day, tho many with little intermissions during their course. Sleep was a distant memory, brain function was shot, but I somehow managed to plow through those impenetrable research papers that you probably read thru like Sunday comics, you lucky duck, and endless medical articles, slowly putting together my treatment plan, such as it was.

But little by little, experiment after experiment, I gradually found things that worked, at least for the panic or whatever we want to call it. The fatigue, the PEMS, the POTS, and all their nasty little friends still come a-callin'. but they not as bad as they were, and I'll keep on punchin' until I find a way to defeat them, as well.

I will have to try magnesium glycinate.
The secret for that is constant semi-micro-dosing, 50 mgs every hour or less if you're having a bad attack, all day til bedtime. I also found that .25 mgs of melatonin helped, sometimes quite a lot, sometimes just a little, but if I woke up in a bad attack, I'd immediately hit .25 mgs of melatonin, then 50 mgs of mag gly as often as needed, but no less than 1x hour.

I hope it works for you as well as it's working for me, or at least gives you another path to try. It's always good to have another arrow in your quiver.

Though I read just now that magnesium glycinate increases serotonin, so maybe that's how it leads to anti-anxiety benefits (serotonin has anti-anxiety effects).
I wish I knew. I believe melatonin might, as well. Not sure. Too tired to check back thru notes and the several thousand files I have on everything I tried at one time or another.

If increasing serotonin works for you, you might also consider high-dose inositol
Actually, Inositol was one of the early rejects. I'd been taking a very small dose (500 mgs or less) to help with sleep, and it started to turn on me as well, so after years of using it with no issues, out it went.

Good God, this has turned into a fairly boring War & Peace .... apologies, and thanks for hanging in this far.

And thank you again, Hip, for all your input and generous sharing.

And apologies for all the inevitable typos, too beat to fix.

Talk later ...... onward and upward, eh? :globe: :rocket::star:
:) :thumbsup: :hug::hug: :woot::woot:
 
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Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
I soaked in heavily dosed Esom Salt baths daily, didn't notice much effect but I was so bad then that it's hard to recall ....

Epsom salt baths unfortunately will not work very well, as far as I can see: I don't think they get enough magnesium into the body. If you think about it, with these baths you are diluting all your Epsom salts in a hundred liters or so of bath water. This means that the bath water in contact with your skin has only a very weak concentration of Epsom salts in it. So that could be why you found Epsom salts ineffective for anxiety.

The method I use to get more magnesium across the skin is spraying the skin with a completely saturated Epsom salt solution. When I make up my Epsom salts solution, I use two mugfuls of Epsom salts in 750 ml of water (that is about the maximum amount of Epsom salts you can dissolve in that volume of water).

Then I apply that to the skin, and let it dry in for a few minutes before putting my clothes back on. It then remains on the skin for hours afterwards, so that the skin is constantly absorbing magnesium. So in that way I think you get a pretty high dose. More details in this post.



spent 2 whole paragraphs on cinnamon and it's ability to cut glutamate / excitotoxicity reactions.

Yes, cinnamon is a herb known to reduce brain inflammation, just like turmeric. And ginger too (though some people find ginger can be a little stimulating a night and lead to insomnia).

So all these herbs may help reduce anxiety, assuming the anxiety is caused by chronic brain inflammation and the glutamate such neuroinflammation produces.

But nothing comes close to NAG itself for anti-anxiety potency, I found.



Absolutely ..... and I found that cutting it out entirely really helped start the lengthy, still on-going, healing process .... it was entirely intuitive, and started with having to stop the lecithin gels ..... then the Vit D, I think, then the E ... then I was afraid to take anything, and converted to veg-capsuled supplements only. I also had to stop all herbs and things like turmeric for a while, tho I'm edging back into them slowly.

I appreciate that a small subset of people may react badly to MSG (getting headaches, etc), and some may get panic attacks. Perhaps that's what you experienced?

On the other hand, I hope you weren't unduly fearful because of all these Internet articles that try to portray MSG as the devil incarnate? Sometimes you get this hearsay fear mongering online, and then these sort of hysterical articles can cause anxiety just by themselves.



Not a clue.

You can read about the differences between panic disorder and generalized anxiety disorder here.

The main difference is that PD occurs in short intense bouts of anxiety and panic, whereas GAD tends to involve continuous levels of anxiety.



the sudden onset agoraphobia

Agoraphobia sounds more like panic disorder, as you often get this in PD. I never experienced any agoraphobia with my GAD.



Actually, Inositol was one of the early rejects. I'd been taking a very small dose (500 mgs or less) to help with sleep, and it started to turn on me as well, so after years of using it with no issues, out it went.

So you got side effects that forced you to stop?

Note that 500 mg of inositol is a tiny dose for serotonin purposes; the doses used to boost serotonin are up to 15,000 mg (15 grams) daily, which is around 2 heaped teaspoons. It's only at these high doses that you might notice anti-anxiety effects.

I found that it takes around 12 hours for the anti-anxiety effects of high-dose inositol to kick in; so that's a little slower that most of the other supplements on my anti-anxiety threads, which typically kick in with an hour or two.

Have you ever tried SSRIs? These will also raise serotonin, and so are often effective for anxiety. Unfortunately when I tried an SSRI (citalopram), within an hour or two of taking just one pill it dramatically worsened my depression (as SSRIs sometimes do in certain people), so I could not use them.

SSRIs can often lead to adverse effects though like emotional flattening and sexual dysfunction. So high-dose inositol is a safer option.
 
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SmokinJoeFraz93

Senior Member
Messages
194
Location
United Kingdom
500 mg of inositol is a tiny dose for serotonin purposes;

I didn’t even know inositol increases serotonin? I knew it helps major OCD and surrounding issues, but didn’t know it worked on serotonin receptors? This may be something I could look into as St John’s Wort isn’t doing nothing for me.

So in that way you get a pretty high dose

I tried this method and I could feel the effects when I first started, but then they faded. Maybe I wasn’t putting enough on, I don’t know. I’m now using mag glycinate and am attempting to test bowel tolerance (Dr Myhill’s instructions) and see where that gets me.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
any kind of GABAa stimulator is generally a very bad idea

One exception to this rule is the herb kava kava (Piper methysticum), that has reverse-tolerance effects, and over time actually builds up the number of GABA-A binding sites in the brain, thus boosting GABAergic effects. Ref: 1

Two other supplements which also have reverse-tolerance effects and build up GABAergic system sensitivity over time are Magnolia officinalis bark and Bacopa monnieri. Refs: 1 2
 
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gbells

Improved ME from 2 to 6
Messages
1,491
Location
Alexandria, VA USA
A quick Google check indicates the main ingredient in lavender, linalool, is an NMDA antagonist. So that is one likely mechanism by which lavender reduces anxiety. Although I believe people usually use lavender by aromatherapy, rather than oral ingestion, so the doses administered are not going to be high.

I found that lavender by aromatherapy only had very mild anti-anxiety effects, and barely put a dent in the often severe levels of generalized anxiety disorder I had.

That was a good find but you should quote your sources.

(Coelho VR, Phytomedicine. 2011 Jul 15;18(10):896-901.)

Aromatherapy isn't an effective way to dose lavender. Go buy a vial of organic essential lavender oil and stir two drops in 8 oz of water. Sip. You'll see a big difference in anxiety.
 

bjl218

Senior Member
Messages
145
Location
Chelmsford, Massachusetts
FWIW, lavender essential oil is also available in capsule form in a supplement called Lavela which is often prescribed by Naturopaths and Functional Medicine doctors to treat anxiety. Not sure it ever did anything for me though.

I used to suffer from a mild level of GAD which was completely manageable. Then some time last year, I started suffering from PD. I suspect this is due to mold exposure, but I can't really prove that at this point. I'm mystified as to what triggers these episodes since they occur so inconsistently. But wow, when they do occur it's very debilitating.

I plan to try the Mg glycinate micro-dosing mechanism mentioned earlier in this thread. I had tried NAG a while back, but didn't notice any improvement. I may give it a try again though. My MMP9 has been measured somewhat high so I'm also going to try high doses of DHA (probably using one of Nordic Naturals' high DHA formulas) to reduce MMP9 which has been implicated in anxiety disorders.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
Go buy a vial of organic essential lavender oil and stir two drops in 8 oz of water. Sip. You'll see a big difference in anxiety.

I have tried linalool transdermally and orally (about an 8 drop dosage), and I don't remember there being an anti-anxiety effect (although this was some years ago). Linalool is found in higher amounts in coriander and thyme essential oils (around 70 to 80%), higher than you find in lavender, so I used coriander and thyme as linalool sources.

One thing to be careful about with linalool is that it oxidizes in air, forming products which are allergenic. So fresh oils would be best.