Increasing aerobic workout - I crash after 15 mins - but want to gradually increase...?

[Mij]

I wonder if people tend to have 'healthy' thresholds that are about 2/5 to 1/2 of their crash-level activity. I crashed at 22 minutes of exercise, and 10 made me feel pretty good. If I upped to 15 I was still okay, but would experience my "minor" symptoms and, if done two days in a row, a few of the moderate ones.

Are you describing symptoms/crash during exercise? Or 12+ hrs post exercise?

I'm asking because I'm thinking perhaps (for some) that the symptoms during could be the result of a persisting viral or bacterial infection. When I experience symptoms during activities I know it's viral, it may not be as obvious at the beginning but will progressively get worse if I continue. During this time I need to do nothing at all.

 

[JaimeS]

'm thinking perhaps (for some) that the symptoms during could be the result of a persisting viral or bacterial infection.

What makes you say so, @Mij? That's a very interesting statement. If so, what causes the delayed crashes? As I said, I've had both, but the 'during or right after' is more common with me.

Oh, wait. Inflammation is the culprit - like everything else gone wrong with us:

The culprit for delayed muscle soreness is not, as some people used to think, the buildup of lactic acid.....many scientists now think that the delayed pain is caused by microscopic tears in the muscles when a certain exercise or activity is new or novel. These tiny tears eventually produce inflammation...

And another theory:

Another explanation for the pain associated with DOMS is the "enzyme efflux" theory. Following microtrauma, calcium that is normally stored in the sarcoplasmic reticulum accumulates in the damaged muscles. Cellular respiration is inhibited and ATP needed to actively transport calcium back into the sarcoplasmic reticulum is also slowed. This accumulation of calcium may activate proteases and phospholipases which in turn break down and degenerate muscle protein.[7] This causes inflammation, and in turn pain due to the accumulation of histamines, prostaglandins, and potassium.

(Boldface mine).

Someone's probably already discussed these ideas at length elsewhere. At this point, PR is its own, seemingly infinite universe, and at one point everyone has discussed nearly everything.

But my initial question still stands - why is fatigue at the time associated with infection?

-J

 

[TigerLilea]

No, it isn't. If you have ME, it's harmful, and trying to exercise has made many of us sicker.

Like Bansaw, I actually feel better after exercising even if I only get five minutes worth. However, I do eventually crash and have to take a few days or a week off. I sleep so much deeper when I'm exercising even though it can take me longer to get to sleep. And mentally I am much more sharper when I'm exercising than when I'm resting for days at a time.

I do push myself to make sure that I get some form of exercise as I have read many times over that the people who do exercise are much more likely to recover from CFS if ever a cure is found than those who never exercise. Plus I think that we set ourselves up for an early death if we don't get any exercise.

 

[TigerLilea]

If you think a few hours of endorphins make crashing worthwhile, then you are seriously in denial. People experience long-term and permanent deterioration from trying to push their limits with this disease. It's not a pleasant reality to accept, but ignoring it will only exacerbate the problem, and probably leave you longing for your current level of functioning.

I have been pushing myself now for 24 years and continue to do so. Life is too short not to squeeze out every second that you can. I tried the resting and pacing and it didn't make me feel any better.

 

[Mij]

What makes you say so, @Mij? That's a very interesting statement. If so, what causes the delayed crashes? As I said, I've had both, but the 'during or right after' is more common with me.

On another thread recently, Hip was discussing sickness behaviour vs PEM and how he thought that they were one of the same. It got me thinking and reading about sickness behaviour.
Sickness behaviour is a short term adaptive mechanism to an acute infection or inflammatory injury, "Is an adaptive behavioral response aiming to conserve energy and to redirect energy to immune cells to combat the pathogens", it plays a role to resolve acute inflammation. Where as with PEM (delayed for hours, days . . . ) is a "Mitochondrial dysfunction, lowered ATP, abnormally high lactate levels" which falls into the long term chronic course.

They have distinctive differences and I'm thinking that for some, the immediate responders to exercise or activities could be due to an active inflammatory response (sickness behaviour), while those of us who are delayed fit into the PEM chronic group.

I've also had both and sometimes occuring together. At the moment I am fighting a viral infection and can't even begin to walk for 5 minutes before I feel shaky and ready to crash.

 

[TigerLilea]

At the moment I am able to do about 15 mins of exercise.
Actually, 4 mins of weights and 15 mins of aerobic (medium paced on my elliptical trainer).
I know exercise is good for me, but if I do over 15 mins, the next couple of days I crash and feel fatigued and achy, I guess due to adrenal fatigue. If I do between 10-15 mins, I can feel pretty much OK next day.

My question is, I want to build up to 30+ mins over time. Whats the best approach (and possibly supplements I could take ) to enable me to build up my exercise regime?

Hi @Bansaw - I'm going against what most people on here are advising and saying that if you feel okay doing 15 minutes of aerobic exercise then stick with it. Once you get to the point that it is causing you to crash then you know you have reached your limit. I have started exercising again and started with 5 minutes per day and am increasing my time by 1 minute per week until I reach my limit and then that will be where I continue at. I'm also going to limit one session to no more than 10 minutes and do a morning workout and then another one in the last afternoon. If that works out okay then I will consider adding more minutes to my routine.

I used to be able to work out for longer than 10 minutes but then good old menopause really hit me hard and I am still trying to recover from that. In some ways menopause has been harder on me than CFS if that is possible to believe.

 

[JaimeS]

@Mij - I know that article. I understand your rationale, now.

-J

 

[JaimeS]

This is golden advice. So far all I recognize is numb hands and feet as a warning. And I only figured THAT out in the last few weeks. I have much to learn still.

I should add that a moderate/crash positions symptom is that I feel a kind of weird internal trembliness. My hands are usually shaking by this point, too, but there's something indefinable and vibratory that seems to be happening full-body. Hard symptom to describe, but I think healthy people who have pulled all-nighters would recognize this symptom of pure exhaustion.

[Edit: maybe this is what increased epinepherine feels like...]

-J

 

[cb2]

i have to also remind myself that the basic of self care are exericse too for me.. the light walk to grocery store or at store- cooking , dishes.. cat care- light cleaning- all exercise. Yay! i recently got a step counter..fitness thing and have heard that for cfs it is important not to go over 5000 steps a day- 2 counters 2 different numbers- anyway i am trying..and also i am monitoring heart rate- and oddly when i do light exercise, like yesterday only 20mins at gym, light weights low end heart rate and today i woke up feeling pretty good. also i am trying to take pre emptive deep mediation breaks.

 

[JaimeS]

@cb2 -

Good for you! Let me know how it works out.

Weird how 5000 seems to be the 'magic number', huh? But I could tell I was approaching trouble far before I actually hit 5000 steps. I wanted to see where I began to experience symptoms, so I pushed more than I should have the first day I got the fitbit, to help me gauge where my limits were. It wasn't smart. I wasn't following my own advice on here!

-J

 

[cb2]

it's a process.. and it was smart you got the fitbit.. !! important to give ourselfs credit ; )

 

[minkeygirl]

Someone at the ME conference (can't remember who at the moment) talked about adrenal fatigue being neurological which means all the supplements in the world won't help.

Exercise and CFS are mutually exclusive. You can't have one and do the other,
And not pay a heavy price.

You can't look at a short term high and think it helps without looking at the long term damage you are doing.

This disease is progressive. You should be looking at how to minimize ups and downs not stress your body out for 5 hours of clarity.

 

[Valentijn]

I do push myself to make sure that I get some form of exercise as I have read many times over that the people who do exercise are much more likely to recover from CFS if ever a cure is found than those who never exercise.

Sounds like a load of psychobabble bullshit. What was the source?

Plus I think that we set ourselves up for an early death if we don't get any exercise.

Interesting theory. But more certain and immediate is that we set ourselves up for greater disability if we push ourselves.

 

[Valentijn]

I have been pushing myself now for 24 years and continue to do so. Life is too short not to squeeze out every second that you can. I tried the resting and pacing and it didn't make me feel any better.

Have you considered an alternative diagnosis? If pacing doesn't make you feel better yet you can tolerate exercise and it makes you feel better, that might indicate that you don't have PEM, and ergo don't have ME/SEID.

 

[heapsreal]

I guess activity/exercise with cfsme is a learning curve to gauge how much one can tolerate as one doesnt always get an immediate response after exercise.

So if we can find our limits which for severe cfsme is probably non exist but in more mild cfs then there maybe room for exercise . But some with mild on the mild, moderate and severe scale, are able to work which uses up all their energy reserves , so other activity can be out. If one is mild to moderate and not working than maybe there's a small window for increased activity and time to rest when they can if not tied to a schedule .

We need to weigh up inactivity which has health risks in itself with activity levels which worsen cfsme. Everyone has a different level, thats the part thats hard to find and can even vary alot amongst individuals . Also some of us enjoy exercise or activity, maybe one can try to work on aggressive rest/recovery things supplements but also athletes use hot and cold showers and baths etc or maybe some type of massage after activity can improve recovery from this. Also optimizing hormones can help alot as good testosterone levels for a man are important for recovery from activity.

one needs to experiment alot if they enjoy exercise and want to continue. It really needs to be modified alot. If in a crash be able to realize this and not push through it, maybe needing several days or even weeks to recover .

my experience is anything classed as cardio which is something continuous for several minutes that makes u breathless , in the long run isnt very useful and i have been unable to really increase cardio fitness.

what i have been able to do and improve is strength training with weights . I find it easier to control more variables and train within your limits. I did do alot of weight training pre cfs so ithink for me muscle memory plays a part.

I would make these work outs very brief and no more than twice a week maybe once every 5 days. I would do only 1 or 2 repetitions which would take less than 20 seconds than rest until breathing and heart rate normalized. Than do it again. I might do anything from 1 exercise to 5 exercises for 3 to 5 sets depending on the exercise. I have been able to work up to a reasonable increase in weights lifted but push too hard and crashes can occur .

It has been very cyclic for me to exercise, sometimes regularly for a few weeks rarely couple of months and than needing alot of time off. Occasionally it has been from pushing too hard exercise wise but other times just outside factors like work or sleep issues or some infection have stopped me.

I cant explain it but there is a feeling where i can tell im able to do some exercise and when i shouldn't . Like I mentioned earlier about muscle memory, sometimes it does take me l9ng to build strength up. Its probably more than the average guy on the street but it less than what i could do pre cfs. I could say that i can bench press 100kg and people go wow u cant have cfs but the training i did for this didnt tax cardio system much, its 1 repetition and its muscle memory from pre cfs i could do 140kg.

if u like strength training i would say its an option but its still got to be done within your boundaries and its nothing like training 'normal' people do. Probably only if you enjoy it and motivated to do it.

 

[JamBob]

Have you considered an alternative diagnosis? If pacing doesn't make you feel better yet you can tolerate exercise and it makes you feel better, that might indicate that you don't have PEM, and ergo don't have ME/SEID.

But maybe it's about the type and quality of exercise. Eg. I can build up to do some aerobic work on a recumbent bike and if I build up slowly over weeks I don't get PEM. It doesn't make my general health any better but it does give me a little "high" for a few hours after doing the exercise, I think due to endorphins.

But if I walk around the supermarket for more than 15 mins. I do get bad PEM. Also rowing machine exercise gives me PEM as does strenuous or heavy weight lifting. But if I do a few weight exercises at low (lady dubmbel) weights I don't get PEM. Also studying very intensively for too long can give me PEM.

I do take 3 types of steroids (glucocorticoids, mineralcorticoids and DHEA/testosterone) - without these I would be bed bound. And I am on LDN, immunovir, COQ10, magnesium etc.

 

[Mij]

@TigerLilea you can maintain good health with proper stretching and a small amount of weight bearing poses a few times a week. You really don't have to push yourself.

 

[JaimeS]

Also optimizing hormones can help alot as good testosterone levels for a man are important for recovery from activity.

For women, too! Although estrogen is just as important muscularly as testosterone. I know because some women, myself included, get weak as kittens when estrogen is at its lowest, and can do seemingly impossible things like pull an ab muscle while holding a tiny (1.5lb!) weight. Which I did randomly yesterday.

my experience is anything classed as cardio which is something continuous for several minutes that makes u breathless , in the long run isnt very useful and i have been unable to really increase cardio fitness.

Yeah, mine too, @heapsreal - depressing, but true. Rest punctuated by gentle activity is the only thing that makes me more long-term energetic. Pushing never has.

I would do only 1 or 2 repetitions which would take less than 20 seconds than rest until breathing and heart rate normalized.

The last part is most important. It's not a timeframe thing, it's waiting until your heartrate has returned to wherever it was before, which is hard for people, especially if the wait is long, but very necessary.

-J

 

[JaimeS]

Someone at the ME conference (can't remember who at the moment) talked about adrenal fatigue being neurological which means all the supplements in the world won't help.

Minkeygirl, I can't buy that. Nothing we take in ever passes the blood-brain barrier? Nothing we take in can improve our health in indirect ways without directly addressing adrenal fatigue? Shall we just accept our fates?

Maybe what they meant is that no supplement can provide a cure for adrenal fatigue, or allow one to build up hormones to do so. I'd still disagree, re: the latter. As discussed extensively elsewhere, my pituitary is kaput, but for various reasons I'm on no replacements. Still, taking supplements and managing my diet and activity levels means that even my skeptical mama admits I'm noticeably healthier than before.

So, am I fixed up? If I stop taking supplements, I'll be fine? No; if I miss one dose of anything, esp the B-Vitamin ones, I'm going to be miserable. But what these supplements allow my body to do is increase the number of days since disaster. It's hard on the body to not have what it needs and go through the biochemical equivalent of Armageddon over... and over... and over again. My supplements give my body a break from constant crashing, and allow me to sloowwwly build up stores of the hormones I need (as evidenced by the fact that, despite my low ACTH, I still manufacture enough cortisol if given the time.)

Even if nothing in my brain has altered, my body doesn't need to use up all its resources because I'm feeding it what it likes in terms of food, supplements, and mild activity. This allows me to shore up some systems that have probably been 'waiting in line for attention' for years.

-J

 

[xrunner]

.
My question is, I want to build up to 30+ mins over time. Whats the best approach (and possibly supplements I could take ) to enable me to build up my exercise regime?

It seems to me you're thinking along the lines of those who suggest graded exercise therapy (GET) in order to treat ME. That kind of approach has never worked for us. It's likely it'll make you worse over time. Aerobic exercise will certainly make you worse over time.
Also, I'd avoid any kind of supplement in order to push your threshold out as this is in my opinion one the most dangerous thing one of us can do together with aerobic exercise.

I'd stick to gentle walking, if you can, as the only form of exercise for the time being. When you find you can progressively increase the length of your walks without any payback but feeling actually ok, then that's the time you might consider a more "intense" type of exercise.
Best wishes