Thanks for the help Eastman. I would not think heart failure would arise a few days after high dose mb12 and I am 26, I have never had similar symptoms. Prior serum blood tests showed decent thiamine levels. Would it happen that quickly is what I am thinking. The edema seems to be mostly cured by good P5P intake.
B1 is certainly something I have thought about greatly and continues to be something I have to balance with zinc/P5P because of its antagonism. I have tried high dose thiamine HCI up to 3g per day for a few weeks and I did not notice anything beyond remedying certain immediate symptoms such as overwhelming tiredness which was clearly apparent from high dose P5P antagonism of the vitamin etc. Is there something I am missing from this? I have read the other threads on b1. I have always took Thorne active b complex with it, magnesium, zinc etc. Many thanks.
@lain123456,
I used to have 85 pounds of excess water on me. I got rid of 45 pounds twice, each time in a month. Then I discovered the tie in. When I took MeCbl, edema would start as I get methylfolate deficient. It is one of my earliest refeeding syndrome deficiency symptom. It can be brought on by NAC, glutathione (methyltrap) or folic acid, folinic acid (partial methylation block), and l-methylfolate (and/or MeCbl, and/or AdoCbl and/or L-carnitine and a few other things) as paradoxical folate deficiency which is healing in some compartments and deficient in other compartments.
Version 2.21 12/06/2016 A work in process, incomplete, limited testing, people come in many variations, use at your own risk.
INDUCED DEFICIENCY SYMPTOMS FROM REFEEDING SYNDROME. This can follow 5 days of food deprivation, anorexia, or sort of a pinpoint starvation via vitamin or mineral or amino acid deficiencies. Whatever the “most needed” item is will often cause a strong response. The first usual notable symptoms occur on typically the third day of starting a previously insufficient nutrient. For instance it was noted in the 50s with injections of B12 with potassium deficiency (hypokalemia) as a side effect. It is dangerous and can be unpredictably fatal if not corrected and the cause is continued. When they say people are dying in Syria after they have been starved and given food, they are often suffering REFEEDING SYNDROME. When previous symptoms return
Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Often called “detox”. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (Cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).
There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.
IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,
Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness
Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure
Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.
Group 2a - Both hypokalemia and l-methylfolate deficiency
IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation
Group 2b – Either or both hypokalemia and l-methylfolate deficiency
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue
Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency, partial methylation block to methyltrap on 1 or more internal triage levels. Frequently called “NAC DETOX” or “GLUTATHIONE DETOX”. Can be caused by folic acid, folinic acid and for some people, like me and quite a few others, excess vegetable folates.
Further excess B1, B2, B3 and/or inositol can increase methylfolate deficiency symptoms. Methylfolate, MeCbl and just about anythjing else that starts healing can cause the folate deficiency symptoms.
These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.
Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.
Old symptoms returning in a general sense, a person may have had onset of these hundreds of time if they are on the borderline
Edema
Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,
Skin rashes, increased acne, Increased itchy acne on scalp and face, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, painful cracks in the skin at the corner of fingernails at approximate right angles to nails, can take months to occur and it may be only non mood or neurological symptoms.
IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue
Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms
IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,
Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,
Longer term, very serious:
Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily.
Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbl after photolytic breakdown onset.
Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.
Group 5 – Copper deficiency after methylation startup has been achieved which often starts refeeding syndrome. 50mg or more of zinc has been indicated as a possible cause. 200-400 mg of zinc has been linked to copper deficiency. Excess supplemental or environmental manganese is linked to copper deficiency. Any or all symptoms can occur at “low normal range” copper tests.
Demyelination of nerves similar to Sub Acute Combined Degeneration except that methylation and ATP startup has occurred, and copper deficiency favors damage to the upper motor neurons with perceived muscle weakness. Brittle nails. Sleep disorders. Mood (especially depression perhaps) and personality changes. Connective tissue breakdown. Spider veins. Varicose veins. Shrinking gums. Gum disease not responsive to usual measures. Unstoppable tooth decay on exposed areas without enamel. Low testosterone
Group 6 – Excess P-5-P, an active form of B6 that appears to drive hematocrit.
High hematocrit. The blood thickens and doesn’t pump as easily. Deep vein thrombosis can result. Other suspected circulatory hazards. Sometimes linked to high testosterone when lowering P-5-P might reduce it.
Group 7 – Excess B-vitamins affecting methylation
When taking the active B12/folate deadlock quartet (AdoCbl, MeCbl, Metafolin, L-methylfolate) Excess B1 - Thiamin, Excess B2 – Riboflavin, Excess B3 – Niacin and/or Excess Inositol can all produce an excess need for potassium to deal with Groups 1, 2a and 2b symptoms and/or produce an excess need for l-methylfolate to reduce groups 2a, 2b and 3 symptoms. A person might not be able to correct by taking potassium or folate and may need to reduce B1 <= 15mg/day, B2<= 10.2mg/day, B3 <=50mg, and inositol below an unknown quantity.
Group 8 – Boron insufficiency.
Arthritis swelling and pain, can be reduced by Boron
Contribution to fatigue, neurological effects.
Runaway tooth decay
Loss of calcium in bones and teeth
https://www.organicfacts.net/health-benefits/minerals/boron.html
Although all of the deficiency symptoms of boron are not fully understood, it is known that boron deficiency might result in the abnormal metabolism of calcium and magnesium. Some of the other symptoms include hyperthyroidism, sex hormone imbalance, osteoporosis, arthritis and neural malfunction.
