I need to sleep! Help !!!!!

[Mary]

Maybe you could move our sillier posts to the Silly Games etc thread?

Good idea! My brain is almost empty anyways

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

@Mary
Here it be ..... https://forums.phoenixrising.me/ind...d-sillier-comments.61917/page-12#post-1020821

 

[L'engle]

Hey guys! Thanks for your replies. I finally managed to sleep for several hours this afternoon! I had just gone out and bought a sleep aid but didn't have to use it.

It's definitely magnesium. After 5 years of working with it I can tell by how it reacts (worse when even more magnesium is added, better if left to taper off). The leg cramps that occur from magnesium flushing into your blood from being stored when you have overly high amounts stored feel different from low magnesium cramps, though they can sometimes be confused. I know my situation is pretty unusual and the result of the corrective magnesium loading that I had to do over time in the earlier phases of this. Choosing to add more magnesium and then either falling asleep easily or being kept awake further made it obvious whether I had made the right choice. This is the work of many days and months of trial and error, and reacting as best I can in the moment.

Lithium is known to have the ability to mess with calcium and magnesium, just I haven't heard of anyone else having this extreme and long lasting problem. Also I have had low potassium leg cramps and they feel quite different.

Still, thanks for your observations and your care in sharing them. They certainly reflect the more usual situation that anyone is likely to be in.

 

[Mary]

@Mary
Here it be ..... https://forums.phoenixrising.me/ind...d-sillier-comments.61917/page-12#post-1020821

Hi @YippeeKi YOW !! - since @L'engle has weighed in here, I'll just leave the silly stuff where it is (but will not continue here with it! )

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I'll just leave the silly stuff where it is (but will not continue here with it! )

Well okey dokey .. but I'll definitely miss the totally ridiculous silly roll we were on ..... catch ya later .

@L'engle .... great news that you caught some sleep, and I hope it continues .....if not, try the calcium to move more mag out, and if necessary, the Unisom or Benadryl to aid in gettng a night or two of decent sleep .... Here's to counting sheep and snoozing deep .....

 

[L'engle]

I got some benadryl yesterday. I'm still having issues and if I'm not asleep in a couple of hours I may try it. Do you guys find benadryl works at all? I didn't get unisom yet but I guess if this doesn't work I may need to.

 

[taniaaust1]

I got some benadryl yesterday. I'm still having issues and if I'm not asleep in a couple of hours I may try it. Do you guys find benadryl works at all? I didn't get unisom yet but I guess if this doesn't work I may need to.

I have not tried benadryl. Doxylamine succinate and Tempazam are my two emergency sleep drugs. If you ever try the sleep aid Doxy succinate, be aware it can work for us in the smallest of doses. When taking it I was crumbing my pills (taking only an 8 of a pill). Both of those things can cause tolerance issues so Temazapam if Im taking that I only take 1-2 times a week at the most in emergencies (when all else is failing with no sleep for days) and the Doxy succinate only a couple of times a week.

I dont think the ER would take someone very seriously if you went there for sleep issues as they would think this kind of stuff is something you see a regular GP for.

My insomina was so bad I went 5 days with no sleep at all and then was hallucinating while awake and trying to do things, I was seeing patches of colour in the air, was seeing things moving which were not there etc etc. I was actually having dreams while awake (going into very vivid daydreams which seemed real) and doing things eg go to do something and think something else was going on.

 

[L'engle]

Well I popped the pill. I'm so not a pill popper but I need to at least get a resting state to occur somehow. My family's here so if I have a bad reaction I have people around me. I had my problem figured out earlier in the week and got three good blocks of sleep, then something changed and I don't know what, since then only 6 hours of sleep. I have a suspicion of hidden magnesium intake from the aloe vera juice I've been using to curb acid reflux but I really don't know at this point. The nights I missed last week were due to trying to add foods with magnesium back into my diet.

Thanks for everyone's help. It's pretty clear you've all suffered pretty hideously too and I am amazed at the rigorous insight and coherence that you all still manage. At least we're all suffering together in a manner of speaking.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Do you guys find benadryl works at all? I didn't get unisom yet but I guess if this doesn't work I may need to.

Hi, @L'engle ..... as I think I said in a previous post to you, Benadryl did absolute zero for me, but Unisom works extremely well at 1/4 dose (6.25 mg) .... have tried to cut it to 1/8th just to see if it works, but it shatters into tiny unmeasurable pieces, so I couldn't figure out how many mgs I was taking.

Here's excerpts from my previous posts on Fri, I think .... too tired to go back and check for the date again

When I'm desperate, I take 1/4 of a Unisom tablet, which equals about 6.25 mgs of doxylamine succinate, and that usually does the trick. I'm cautious about using it steadily, or more than 2-3 nights in a row, because I tend to distrust all easy answers, and because it screws with acetylcholine, a critical neurotransmittor. But when you've gone 2.5 days with no sleep, it's worth a shot. I'd eat a goat if I thought it would help. Just be careful, yes?

Hang in there, the sleeplessness can be helped ... it's just a lot of experimentation and coping emotionally with the failures til you get to the success .... not easy to do, I know, but when needs must ......

 

[prioris]

Your memory is working! I didn't know this but lithium orotate can deplete potassium: https://sciencing.com/lithium-low-potassium-levels-6630594.html

So @L'engle may very well be dealing with low potassium issues.

the link calls potassium a "trace mineral" ... noooooooooooooooo

one of the therapeutic purposes of lithium orotate besides calcium regulation in brain is to be an antagonist to excitation mineral like potassium in the neuron so it is doing what it is suppose to do

it isn't going to deplete it unless one is severely deficient in potassium ... people can easily get enormous amount of potassium in diet ... lithium deficiency is a way more likely problem

 

[Mary]

the link calls potassium a "trace mineral" ... noooooooooooooooo

I agree, potassium is not a trace mineral at all!

However, many people with ME/CFS are prone to low intracellular potassium despite normal blood levels. Richvank explains why here: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/ind...ded-in-methylation-treatmt.18670/#post-291422

Burnet et al. found that the CFS patients who had predominately fatigue but not muscle pain were low in whole-body potassium by more than 10% compared to normal. They also measured the plasma level in the blood serum, and that was found to be normal.

It is known that at least 95% of the potassium in the human body is inside cells. Potassium is the most abundant positive ion inside all cells. So the measurements of Burnet et al. mean that the CFS patients they studied were significantly low in intracellular potassium.

The observation of low intracellular potassium in the presence of normal serum potassium means that there is a problem with the membrane ion pumps that normally pump potassium in (and sodium out) of the cells. These pumps require ATP for their energy supply, and that implies that the mitochondria are not able to supply enough ATP.

I can't get enough potassium through food alone, and I'm not the only one.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I can't get enough potassium through food alone, and I'm not the only one.

I agree. I start every day with a blend of potassium, a small amount of sea salt, some cinnamon ..... I don't get enough potassium otherwise, and on bad days, I take a second dose. I find it helps immensely.

It's sometimes misleading to base supplement views on people without ME/CFS. Our needs in ME are quite different from the general population, and even from each other's. If the lithium depletes potassium too much, there can be multiple side effects, almost all of which were expressed by in @L'engle 's post.

Further, lithium orotate should de administered in very low doses due to its potential for toxicity, 1 mg or even 250 mcg being the accepted starting point. Due to a lack research, very little is known about the safety of lithium orotate supplements, since it competes with the prescription version, and there's some evidence that it can have considerable toxic effects, including nausea and tremors and muscle cramping. This could very possibly be due to the potassium depletion, but there's no definitive research on that, either, and for the same reason as above. It just fits the profile for severely diminished potassium stores.

 

[Mary]

Our needs in ME are quite different from the general population, and even from each other's.

I totally agree. I have to take so much stuff now to feel halfway normal, that I never had to take before I got sick. But I've been very careful about everything and it works for me. I did take 5 mg. lithium orotate for quite awhile after reading that it was supposed to help with transport of B12 into cells. I never noticed a difference, good or bad, and just finally stopped it.

I used to live in southern Oregon, near Ashland, and I worked for some attorneys there in the 1980's. Ashland is beautiful, home of the Shakespeare Festival and Lithia Park, a long winding park which runs along Lithia Creek. I learned a few years ago that the Lithia name came from the high lithium content of the water. (It's obvious, of course, but it never occurred to me while living there.) FWIW, those attorneys in Ashland were mellow compared to So Cal. The whole area was like that! I really think it might have been the water. When we came back to So Cal, it was a whole different stressful world - the attorneys especially!

 

[Eve18]

I have desperately looking for some sleep. Nothing works. So far, I’ve tried:
Natural supplementation:
- magnesium
- melatonin
- Bach flowers
- chamomile
- lavender
- going to bed early.. not early ..

Medication:
- immovan
- Ativan
- Rivotril
- Trazodone
And I am on Effexor for anxiety.

I have not slept one minute since 2 months. Totally bad tripping right now.

Something working for you ?

I was in your shoes and it was a nightmare. Regular medications for sleep and anxiety didn’t help me.

I started to sleep after being for several weeks on LDN.
May sleep got even better after I added 3 grams of Omega 3 per day, iron (my ferritin was and stil is very low), Inositol and Theanine. I also put ice packs on my head while falling asleep. It wasn’t an overnight miracle but right now I sleep through the night about 90% of nights.

I hope that something will work for you.

 

[prioris]

I agree. I start every day with a blend of potassium, a small amount of sea salt, some cinnamon ..... I don't get enough potassium otherwise, and on bad days, I take a second dose. I find it helps immensely.

It's sometimes misleading to base supplement views on people without ME/CFS. Our needs in ME are quite different from the general population, and even from each other's. If the lithium depletes potassium too much, there can be multiple side effects, almost all of which were expressed by in @L'engle 's post.

Further, lithium orotate should de administered in very low doses due to its potential for toxicity, 1 mg or even 250 mcg being the accepted starting point. Due to a lack research, very little is known about the safety of lithium orotate supplements, since it competes with the prescription version, and there's some evidence that it can have considerable toxic effects, including nausea and tremors and muscle cramping. This could very possibly be due to the potassium depletion, but there's no definitive research on that, either, and for the same reason as above. It just fits the profile for severely diminished potassium stores.

bulk potassium orotate or maybe a bag of yummy dried apricots for potassium deficiency

to get the official toxic dose of lithium via lithium orotate ...
1 bottle = 120 4.6mg tablets in bottle
you'd have to take 12 bottles a day for an entire month

WARNING ... some people misinterpreted the above as some literal dosage recommendation ... it is only to hypothetically show the contrast between lithium carbonate vs lithium orotate ... standard recommendation is usually 5mg or maybe 10mg of lithuim orotate ... a few people may be sensitive to it so one may test it at lower dosage to make sure

lithium carbonate can be very toxic because it doesn't absorb well so builds up in body

there may be a few people sensitive to it but overdose would be an extremely rare event
only real area of a little risk would be for people with hypothyroidism so they just monitor themselves

there is no way to test for tissue mineral deficiencies so it's all about trial and error

 

[L'engle]

Slept off and on for 14 hours today, starting several hours after I took a second benadryl, had taken one yesterday evening. Don't know if that's why I slept or if I just figured out the mineral balance. Anyway, OK for now, not going to take anymore unless I need it!

 

[L'engle]

I did take 5 mg. lithium orotate for quite awhile after reading that it was supposed to help with transport of B12 into cells.

This is why I took it as well. I was tired of the amount of B12 I needed and the huge need for daily potassium. Interestly after I took just 5 of the doctor's best lithium orotate tablets I became intolerant to B12, experiencing runaway potassium loss if I tried to take it. I think the lithium did improve B12 uptake but at the huge expense of the vitamin d, calcium and magnesium problems that I've had since.

 

[Wishful]

Benadryl just made me groggy (couldn't think clearly) but did not make me sleepy or help my quality of sleep. Useless stuff for me.

 

[Mary]

to get the official toxic dose of lithium via lithium orotate ...
1 bottle = 120 4.6mg tablets in bottle
you'd have to take 12 bottles a day for an entire month

lithium carbonate can be very toxic because it doesn't absorb well so builds up in body

there may be a few people sensitive to it but overdose would be an extremely rare event
only real area of a little risk would be for people with hypothyroidism so they just monitor themselves

@prioris - None of us know what is a safe dose of a substance for another person, so please give an authoritative source for your statement as we don't want to encourage anyone to take a dose of a medication that might not be appropriate or safe for them - thanks!

 

[L'engle]

Off topic from the thread but important for anyone thinking of taking lithium orotate:

https://www.superfoodly.com/lithium-orotate/