I have developed an arythmia

[GreenEdge]

Could You Have Sleep Apnea — Without Knowing It?

 

[xebex]

Could You Have Sleep Apnea — Without Knowing It?

Pretty sure I have central sleep apnea but only in a crash, it goes away once I’ve recovered.

I’m actually having an in home test soon but I doubt they’ll find anything and I’m not going to deliberately crash myself.

 

[GreenEdge]

Do you have a Blood Pressure Monitor? - You can buy one from any chemist.

I'm concerned that you may have low blood pressure. And when you fall asleep it goes too low, triggering your body to release adrenaline that then sends your heart racing.

In a hospital setting this can easily be missed because its a stressful environment for someone like ourselves, and the stress can make the blood pressure appear high or normal.

Propranolol should not be taken if you have low blood pressure or a slow heart rate.

The only way to reliably measure blood pressure, is to measure it in the home environment. In my experience a blood pressure monitor is handy device; one that maintains a history, so that later you can show your doctor or healthcare professional. You could even get your partner to measure your blood pressure while your sleeping.

I was a carer for my mother in her last years of life and she was prescribed blood pressure lowering medication after a hospital stay. The medication was causing her blood pressure to go so low see once passed out and I caught it as it was happening. I had a blood pressure monitor and she looked like she was about to pass out, so I measured her blood pressure and it was very low. I called 13 HEALTH and was told to immediately get her to lay down on the ground, by that time she was already passing out. I got her down to the ground just in time - she lost consciousness for only a few seconds. Was then told to stop the medication and take her to see her doctor. The blood pressure monitor maintained a history of every reading and I was able to show the doctor. The medication was discontinued and I possibly saved her life.

 

[xebex]

i do have a BP monitor i have low BP but it's "low normal" ive checked it in the night when having sleep apnea and it was low but again not "dangerous"

now i'm on this beta blocker and things have calmed a little my BP has risen to a slightly better number.

 

[xebex]

so update after 3 weeks of hell - the arythmia has gone. The beta blocker has lowered my HR, i'm upright for a few minutes more a day, i manged to walk downstairs and eat soup at the table, but then had to get back up stairs oops - probabaly shouldn't have done that - we shall see! Things are calmer, but i've been 95% bedridden for almost a month now - leg muscles have wasted - need help bathing now. Very weak and unsteady so shocking how quickly one can deteriorate.

devastating.

 

[Gingergrrl]

@Gingergrrl Interesting. So the p wave reflects the atrium and the QRS complex the ventricular depolarization so the shortened pr interval means the trevelling of the impulse from atrium to ventricle is faster. Ite not usually covered in intro ekg books so my knowledge is especially limited

You definitely have more knowledge about it than I do!

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1161/01.cir.5.5.693 they argue ite an autonomic thing and goes along with bouts of tachycardia. Maybe its not completely unrelated to pots? I only read the avatract but the article is open access if younwwnt to read while thing and see if it seems relevant

Thank you so much for the article! I just downloaded it and I am printing it to read later. So you are saying that the "short PR interval" can relate to dysautonomia & tachycardia? I just want to make sure that I understood.

i first noticed heart symptons after i had a bug too- but was bacterial sore throat (strep viridins). Mild for me (severe for my mother) but left me with heart sensations i never gad before tbough my EKG was always normal until my dysatonomia clearly started which was caused/ triggered by a virus.

In my case, I had a very severe case of Mono from EBV in 2012 (following a minor surgery). It's a longer story but it re-activated in Jan 2013 and I developed POTS followed by several other autoimmune illnesses (MCAS, Hashimoto's & LEMS).

Any evisence of PACs? Either on ekg or sebsation? Thise can apparently also cause shortened PR

I'm not sure if I understand your question but my only abnormality on EKG is the "short PR interval". But I've had many other irregular tests including an abnormal treadmill test in 2014 which showed ischemia (at that time), two irregular tilt table tests in 2014 & 2016 that confirmed POTS, etc. Are you asking about sedation (when I've had surgery) or something else?

Besides the piors induced twchy, do you have any other symptoms relatable to heart?

What is "piors induced twchy"? If you mean my prior history, I had confirmed POTS by multiple tests which was brutal from 2013 to 2018 (but now mostly in remission). I currently have an intermittent symptom that feels like an irregular heart beat or flutter (but this is my word and I have never been diagnosed w/a heart flutter).

It happens every time that I have to stop taking hydrocortisone for 24-hours for blood tests for my endocrinologist and takes a while to recover from it. I just had appt w/him and he said it's not acceptable for me to have to go through this every three months for blood tests and I'll no longer have to stop the hydrocortisone for future blood tests (which was great news)!

If the weird heart flutter feeling continues, I'm going to do a Zio Patch w/my new PCP. She was going to order it at my last appt w/her but I was not having the heart flutter sensation at that time (which might be PAC's?) so there was no point. It is intermittent for me, but if it continues, then I'll tell my PCP that I do want to do the Zio Patch to try to capture it.

Edited to add: I am actually wondering today if the heart palpitations/flutter that I am experiencing is b/c my thyroid medication is too high? I was still in the normal range for TSH on my recent blood tests but it was almost in the hyperthyroid range. My doctor wanted me to stay at the same thyroid dose but now I am wondering.

Im dragging my feet reading an article thats relevant to me because discusses mortalitty and other bad events but ever since i got the 6 lead kardia (before i had a one lead)... One of my docs agreed to try to get past the gatekeepers and get me a televisit with cardio Im sure they wont answer my questions but wirth a shot. Will ask too if there something i can twke jusr intermitwntky to lower heart after load based on what im reading so far.

I'm not familiar w/kardia but do you find it useful? Is it similar to a Zio Patch so it can capture what is happening 24/7 (even while you are sleeping)? I hope you can get the Cardio appt and something to take as needed for the tachycardia.

 

[Gingergrrl]

so update after 3 weeks of hell - the arythmia has gone. The beta blocker has lowered my HR, i'm upright for a few minutes more a day, i manged to walk downstairs and eat soup at the table

This is really great news! I wasn't sure if you saw my initial post in this thread (post #7)? I don't need a reply but I wasn't sure if you saw what I wrote re: Atenolol vs. Propranolol (in case this is useful).

 

[xebex]

This is really great news! I wasn't sure if you saw my initial post in this thread (post #7)? I don't need a reply but I wasn't sure if you saw what I wrote re: Atenolol vs. Propranolol (in case this is useful).

thank you, yes i saw the post, i will bear Atenolol in mind if the propranolol isn't succesful - it does seem to be helping so far, but i think the fact its quick acting might be an issue.

I have an appointment with internist soon - i'll mention the zio patch. But i think i need an echo cardiogram - i do belive its a sinus isue, mainly beasue this all got worse after doing vagus nerve stimualtion and left vagus nerve is related to sinus node - this is kind of scary as i'm worried that a) i did this to myself and b) have i electrocuted my heart!!!! c) how can i get the right help for a condition that probabaly no one has ever experienced before d) this may not be a worsening of ME but rather a new or atleast worsened pre-existing heart condition.

 

[Gingergrrl]

thank you, yes i saw the post, i will bear Atenolol in mind if the propranolol isn't succesful - it does seem to be helping so far, but i think the fact its quick acting might be an issue.

If the Propranalol is working, I wouldn't mess with it. I had just wanted to mention the Atenolol b/c it is a cardio selective beta blocker, and it is long acting, and it works really well for me.

I have an appointment with internist soon - i'll mention the zio patch. But i think i need an echo cardiogram

It's worth asking about the Zio Patch (vs. an old school holter monitor) if they can do it. It would be totally separate from them ordering an Echo or other imaging of the heart.

i do belive its a sinus isue, mainly beasue this all got worse after doing vagus nerve stimualtion and left vagus nerve is related to sinus node

Do you mean (nasal) sinuses or sinus heart rhythm?

 

[xebex]

Do you mean (nasal) sinuses or sinus heart rhythm?

I mean Sinus node in the heart.

 

[vision blue]

Pretty sure I have central sleep apnea but only in a crash, it goes away once I’ve recovered.

I’m actually having an in home test soon but I doubt they’ll find anything and I’m not going to deliberately crash myself.

I thought they can only pick up obstructive sleep apnea on the home sleep tests. Or at least, that's all they try to look at . Maybe the home tests have gotten better.

 

[vision blue]

I have an appointment with internist soon - i'll mention the zio patch. But i think i need an echo cardiogram - i do belive its a sinus isue, mainly beasue this all got worse after doing vagus nerve stimualtion and left vagus nerve is related to sinus node - this is kind of scary as i'm worried that a) i did this to myself and b) have i electrocuted my heart!!!! c) how can i get the right help for a condition that probabaly no one has ever experienced before d) this may not be a worsening of ME but rather a new or atleast worsened pre-existing heart condition.

ooh that's intersting on vagal nerve stimulation. And i was getting close to trying that for my symptatehic nervious overload. Hopefully based on your prevoius post, youve now somehow found the off switch.

i did something similar to myself not with vagus nerve but with a device whose name i'm now forgetting. its marketed as the only fda approved non drug treatment for high bllod pressure. its a device that you match your breathing to the tones- so its supposed to stimulate i guess parasympatheic nervous system. one cna presumably do itwithtoug the device but figured i'd make it simple and just get it.

well i stupidly followed the tones and continued to match my breathing even though i was getting worse and worse and more and more winded. dont' as hell know why, except that it was like a game and was determined to "win".
i really scrwed up my heart. I had to call a couple of doctors. iut gave me a type of arrhymia i never had before- primary atrial contractons. may have done more but i didn't have antying at home to measure that (I only had a one lead thing at home). One doc thought i might have made myself hyperventilate which put a strain on heart. Amusingly for lack of a better word, i spoke to the son of the inventor who is part of the company and does alot of the marekting. He said it have him an atrial arrhyhmia too and he actually had to get cardioversion at the hospital to correct the rhythym!!! Hpw can something like that be legal? I should have sued. I think it forever changed my heart becasue now when there's a stressor, i got those PACs and i had not had them previously. I had same reaction as you- did i just do this to myself??

right now i just ate- and it set off my heart symtpoms. took the 6 lead ekg and have the same 5 chianges i get when i get symptoms. But from my dysauotomia i have exaggerated postprandial reactons, so dont know if its related to that.

The zio patch is only one lead. It's only helpful in limited conditions. And if youre at all senstivie to RF, you'll be having that constantly for a month.

 

[vision blue]

@Gingergrrl If i don't answer all your quesitons, just let me kmow again. i've never mastered the multiquote thing... (ekgs sure, but multiquotes...)

by ""piors induced twchy" I meant "pots induced tachy"

in the article i gave the link too, in the abstract, they don't use the word "dysautonomia" or "pots" so i dont' know if they will or won't in the text. But in the abstract they do say they see people, usually women, with shorted PR interval who also get intermeittant tachycardia and then i think in the last line they hypothesize they are both from autonomic control or some such.

I think the Kardia is great. https://www.kardia.com/kardiamobile/ I am not a fan of the Zio patch. The kardia mobile now has tthree electodes and can give a six lead EKG. If you feel fluttery, you can pull it out and see the flutter for yourself. If you just ever get literally one and then goes away for days-weeks, then i see how it would be hard to catch and by wearing it for a whole month (zio) you may catch it. but really if you have one premature beat in weeks, it may not be worthwhile on those grounds (unless acoompanyied by near fainting or dizziness or something). The zio patch only i believe uses one lead, but that is sufficient for just a premature breat. As i also mentioned in previous post, if youre sensitive to radio frequencies/elecromagetic frequencies, youll be wearing those for a whole month. For overnight recordings, i have used a HealForce monitoer i bought over the counter. Cost me about 80 dollars. Also just one lead at a time. For the Kardia, to get the most use out of it, you do need to learn to read EKGs yourself, at least a little bit, since the software only reports one thing (iv anyone gets it, don't pay for their monthly service. its a complete waste of money)

hyper thryoid can certainly do all sorts of things to heart rhythm. what's the hydrocortisone for?

 

[xebex]

ooh that's intersting on vagal nerve stimulation. And i was getting close to trying that for my symptatehic nervious overload. Hopefully based on your prevoius post, youve now somehow found the off switch.

i did something similar to myself not with vagus nerve but with a device whose name i'm now forgetting. its marketed as the only fda approved non drug treatment for high bllod pressure. its a device that you match your breathing to the tones- so its supposed to stimulate i guess parasympatheic nervous system. one cna presumably do itwithtoug the device but figured i'd make it simple and just get it.

well i stupidly followed the tones and continued to match my breathing even though i was getting worse and worse and more and more winded. dont' as hell know why, except that it was like a game and was determined to "win".
i really scrwed up my heart. I had to call a couple of doctors. iut gave me a type of arrhymia i never had before- primary atrial contractons. may have done more but i didn't have antying at home to measure that (I only had a one lead thing at home). One doc thought i might have made myself hyperventilate which put a strain on heart. Amusingly for lack of a better word, i spoke to the son of the inventor who is part of the company and does alot of the marekting. He said it have him an atrial arrhyhmia too and he actually had to get cardioversion at the hospital to correct the rhythym!!! Hpw can something like that be legal? I should have sued. I think it forever changed my heart becasue now when there's a stressor, i got those PACs and i had not had them previously. I had same reaction as you- did i just do this to myself??

right now i just ate- and it set off my heart symtpoms. took the 6 lead ekg and have the same 5 chianges i get when i get symptoms. But from my dysauotomia i have exaggerated postprandial reactons, so dont know if its related to that.

The zio patch is only one lead. It's only helpful in limited conditions. And if youre at all senstivie to RF, you'll be having that constantly for a month.

Wow that’s exactly what I did, the vagus nerve stimulation was helping the ME for sure I was crashing less and PEM was less but it did have some side effects too but everyone in the Fb group seems to be having such success with it I kept going till one day it suddenly just spiked my heart rate and it never came back down!

I’m so scared because if it does need correcting with cardioversion I can’t get to the hospital!

thers is also the possibility that it’s not my heart but the nerve itself is over toned and is just sending constant “beat fast” messages to the heart that generally seems to be a symptom of low tone rather than high tone though. I even have a deviated uvula which is a sign of vagus nerve damage.

I’m so scared

 

[vision blue]

Hang in there!!!! you'll be ok. more when i get more energy.

 

[Gingergrrl]

I mean Sinus node in the heart.

That's what I thought you meant but wasn't certain.

I’m so scared because if it does need correcting with cardioversion I can’t get to the hospital!

I am hoping that you will not need to go to the hospital and that you will continue to feel better

i did something similar to myself not with vagus nerve but with a device whose name i'm now forgetting.

Were you both referring to a TENS unit or some other device?

The zio patch is only one lead. It's only helpful in limited conditions. And if youre at all senstivie to RF, you'll be having that constantly for a month.

I'm not sensitive to RF as far as I know. I wore a Zio Patch three times (between 2013 and 2018) and each time, I wore the device for about one week (and never for a month- although I know that you can wear it for up to a month if needed).

@Gingergrrl If i don't answer all your quesitons, just let me kmow again. i've never mastered the multiquote thing... (ekgs sure, but multiquotes...)

I can try to explain how to use multi-quote if you want and just let me know.

by ""piors induced twchy" I meant "pots induced tachy"

Thanks and I thought you were asking about my prior history . As far as I know, all of my tachycardia has been due to POTS & Dysautonomia. Initially in 2013, they diagnosed me with "Inappropriate Sinus Tachycardia" (IST) before realizing that I had POTS.

in the article i gave the link too, in the abstract, they don't use the word "dysautonomia" or "pots" so i dont' know if they will or won't in the text. But in the abstract they do say they see people, usually women, with shorted PR interval who also get intermeittant tachycardia and then i think in the last line they hypothesize they are both from autonomic control or some such.

I read the entire article today and cannot thank you enough for finding it! The article was from 1952 (so a lot of the terms were different back then ) but it was still very helpful. The article wasn't about POTS or dysautonomia but it exactly related to my situation with the EKG and my "short PR interval".

The article explained EXACTLY the difference found on an EKG between women who have a "short PR interval, normal QRS Complex, and tachycardia" versus those who have Wolff Parkinson White Syndrome (WPW). It explained why it is a distinct and recognizable clinical entity, and I have asked endless doctors about it every time that my EKG was flagged as having the short PR interval, but no one ever explained it to me like that article did! For the first time, I no longer have even a shred of doubt that I have WPW.

The article also said that many women (like me) with "short PR interval, normal QRS Complex, and tachycardia" also have premature heartbeats and an accented or "snapping" of the first apical heart sound. I'm not sure what that means, but I plan to ask if I have it the next time that my new PCP listens to my heart w/a stethoscope.

The article also talked about endocrine issues and how Cortisone can cause the short PR interval. That was really interesting to me although in my case, I had an EKG in 2012 (while I had severe Mono) that showed the short PR interval but I did not start taking hydrocortisone until 2015 (so it was not causal in my case).

There was one sentence in the article re: POTS (although this article was written in 1952 so no one knew about POTS yet)! It said: "Standing, which increases sympathetic tone, may shorten the PR duration in some individuals and may precipitate paroxysmal tachycardia which is relieved by lying down". They did not discuss it beyond that but it seemed to be a foreshadowing of POTS.

Overall, it was really interesting and brought up some questions that I plan to ask my doctor in the future. Thank you so much for finding it!

I think the Kardia is great. https://www.kardia.com/kardiamobile/ I am not a fan of the Zio patch. The kardia mobile now has tthree electodes and can give a six lead EKG. If you feel fluttery, you can pull it out and see the flutter for yourself

Thank you for the link and I read through it although I think for my situation, I prefer the Zio Patch. With the Zio Patch you don't need a phone or the other device so it's much quicker b/c the second that you feel the irregular heartbeat, you just press the button on the device that is attached to your chest.

The device is recording your heart rhythm 24/7, so even if I was at the grocery store, walking my dog, etc, and I had an episode, I could press the button in that instant. Then I'd fill out a page in the booklet which correlates to each time that I press the button. Also, the Zio Patch is recording while I am sleeping which seems to be when I often have this irregular heartbeat.

It is basically a full week (or month) of continuous recording so there is a greater likelihood of catching what is going on (if you have an irregular heart beat or pattern, etc).

If you just ever get literally one and then goes away for days-weeks, then i see how it would be hard to catch and by wearing it for a whole month (zio) you may catch it. but really if you have one premature beat in weeks, it may not be worthwhile on those grounds (unless acoompanyied by near fainting or dizziness or something).

This current issue is sporadic and I can go for weeks (or maybe even a few months?) without it happening. But once it gets triggered, it can last for several days at a time. The biggest trigger I can identify is when I had to withhold taking Cortef for 24-hrs for my blood tests (every 3-4 months). Thankfully my doctor said that I will not have to do this again! It can also get triggered when I have to climb stairs but I avoid stairs at all cost unless there is literally no alternative.

hyper thryoid can certainly do all sorts of things to heart rhythm. what's the hydrocortisone for?

I'm not sure if I was hyperthyroid but with Hashimoto's you can flip in between hypo & hyper. My most recent labs showed that my TSH was close to hyperthyroid but still in the normal range (and in general, I am hypo and not hyper thyroid).

Re: Cortef (hydrocortisone), the reason that I started it in 2015, and the reason that I take it now, are actually two completely different issues. It is a long story but I can explain it if it would be helpful or relevant?

 

[xebex]

@Gingergrrl i was using a tens at specific frequencies for VNS i think vision_blue was using something else.

 

[Gingergrrl]

@Gingergrrl i was using a tens at specific frequencies for VNS i think vision_blue was using something else.

Thanks and I was just curious. I have a TENS unit (from my former chiropractor) but I haven't used it since around 2017. I used to use it regularly for pain (mostly neck, shoulder & arm pain) but I never attached the electrodes to my neck or head (only on my shoulders/back & arms).

 

[vision blue]

@Gingergrrl Ah, that's great the article was useful. its amazin gback then, the articles written had so much common sense. you can hear people reasononing out loud - making logical arguments. Now very few do that. journal articles have changed, there's downplaying of reasoning. And the articles tend to be pushing some drug or invasive technique. Also interesting that they pretty much knew about POTS before it had a name! that's cool.

(I made some progress- one of my docs was able to get past the gatekeepers who refused when i tried it and the cardio agreed to have a televisit or phone visit with me without my having to go in so i can discuss the questions i had on my EKGs! Now i've got to call for the appt, and i want to fax in the EKGs and posiibly the things i noticed about the differences. if i have the energy, i may send in the questions ahead of time but am inclined to wait. its too much stress to do it all up front.

there are also some good websites that list every possible cause of short prn but sounds like you may have gotten to bottom of yours- from work done 70 years ago! we've gone backwards... I bet a doc like that woujld actually listen if we reported our symptoms.

The device that messed up my rhythm- i remembered - is called "Resperate". I'm so angry to even think of the name.

@xebex that was interesting what you said on uvula and the vagal nerve. Doesn't mean you also damaged heart. if you did damage vagal nerve, i'd guess other parts of it can take over functioning. I'll keep reading for your updates. They don't do cardioversion for what you have so no need to add that to the list

 

[xebex]

@vision blue thanks as a general rule the side the uvula deviates away from is the “weak” or damaged side but mine is deviating towards the side I stimulated which suggests it’s in spasm or over toned - it’s tone is stronger than the right side so the right side appears weak but actually it’s cos the left side is tight or whatever has happened to it..