I Have confirmed that earthing does improve HRV (and vagal tone) instantly.

serg1942

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Grounding has been recommend a few times by ME specialists. I’m glad it’s working for you. I dismissed the idea at first but now I’ll give it a go given your results.
Well, so far it has only worsen my symptoms, by giving me a terrible "detox or herx" reaction... However I like that it improved the HRV so quickly and significantly, so I'll stay with it.

All treatments that worked for me in the past did worsen me at the beginning (such as LDN and GcMAF). So, well see... :)
 

serg1942

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That's exactly what troubles me, a lot depends on a place where we ground. Probably smart meters can also change the outcome.



Very good point! I wonder, which device did you use to measure your HRV?

I use the Polar H10 strip. I'd love to have the sleeping data given by the "oura ring", but this one was more affordable, and data seems reliable.

As for smart meters, I still don't know why radiowaves EMF (smart meters, WI-FI, etc.) don't seem to increase the body voltage like ultra low EMF (such as the 50 hz electric devices) do.

However they have shown to create terrible effects in the body, as well as to create free radicals (the work of Martin Pall in this subject is fantastic). And free radicals lack an electron in the outer orbit so they are a positive ion. And when grounded, electrons must pass from earth to the body. So I don't see why these electrons couldn't be given to the free radicals to neutralize them. I think this is a plausible theory.

Anyway, the defenders of earthing explain that grounding protect you from the EMFs, especially when they are of high intensity, and they dismiss the electric current that is created.

I don't know if they are right. I have tried to reduce the EMFs as much as possible just in case.

Lastly, the only "good thing" about smart meters is that their frequency is high enough to be stopped by a single layer of a metallic mesh. For example, you could just cover the wall where the smart meter is with aluminum foil and you won't measure any EMFs coming from the meter. So in theory they are "easier" to stop.
 

serg1942

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My HRV is measured daily, year round. In the winter, I wear shoes, with rubber or leather soles, and in the summer, I walk barefoot outdoors. I haven't observed any difference in HRV, other than it differs depending on how much benadryl or metoprolol I'm taking...
That is fantastic!

Have you meassured the HRV for 2-5 mins ungrounded and then for another 2-5 mins grounded, with identical conditions?

I have made the experiments in 4 people already, and it invariably works. And there are 2 studies showing a great improvement of HRV in both preterm babies and adults, when grounded.

A different thing is weather earthing could change your baseline HRV, especially with a chronic disese... I just know that it improves while grounded... (interestingly, when I have a bad day, my HRV is worse and vice versa, but the approx 70% improvement (in the pasasympathetic tone, indicated by the "HF") when earthing, remains.
 
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I use the Polar H10 strip. I'd love to have the sleeping data given by the "oura ring", but this one was more affordable, and data seems reliable.
You can't get better data on HRV than from Polar. I have the Oura ring and it has some useful insights but it's not better at measuring HRV than Polar.
Except that there are about 25 peer-reviewed papers published showing deep metabolic changes in the body when grounding. And you can measure the HRV improvement yourself.
Ok, then another thing to try...
 

serg1942

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You can't get better data on HRV than from Polar. I have the Oura ring and it has some useful insights but it's not better at measuring HRV than Polar.
Ok, then another thing to try...
Yeah.. But I'd love to have the data on sleep phases and the average HRV... I thing I can do this with the Polar H10 chest strip, but I will be uncomfortable sleeping with it, what could skew the data...

If you try it, please let me know if you make your HRV improve!
 

Viala

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I use the Polar H10 strip.
Thanks!

Anyway, the defenders of earthing explain that grounding protect you from the EMFs, especially when they are of high intensity, and they dismiss the electric current that is created.
I tried that and it didn't have any protective properties, unfortunately, probably because such EMFs still go through the body and that is enough. Of course it may depend on a type and strength of that EMF.

Lastly, the only "good thing" about smart meters is that their frequency is high enough to be stopped by a single layer of a metallic mesh. For example, you could just cover the wall where the smart meter is with aluminum foil and you won't measure any EMFs coming from the meter. So in theory they are "easier" to stop.
That's true, easy when someone lives in a detached house, but what to do when there are many of them around, in the same building. Maybe after some time we will hear more about this and there will be new solutions, houses that incorporate protective measures against electrical pollution.
 

serg1942

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Thanks!



I tried that and it didn't have any protective properties, unfortunately, probably because such EMFs still go through the body and that is enough. Of course it may depend on a type and strength of that EMF.



That's true, easy when someone lives in a detached house, but what to do when there are many of them around, in the same building. Maybe after some time we will hear more about this and there will be new solutions, houses that incorporate protective measures against electrical pollution.
I'm sorry you didn't find earthing to protect you from EMF. I guess it is is advisable to try to reduce the exposition as much as possible... (I am lucky of not having electrohypersensitivity, but still I try to protect myself as much as possible because it could be an important perpetuating factor keeping us sick...).

After all, we evolved grounded, but not with the man-made EMFs around!

As for the smart meters, yes, you are right, when they are aroud you there's nothing we can do... It is like the WiFis of the neighbors in a building. We just get all of them from all directions... And even painting a room with shielding paint is not enough (I've done it...), at least when living in an apartment
 
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Yeah.. But I'd love to have the data on sleep phases and the average HRV... I thing I can do this with the Polar H10 chest strip, but I will be uncomfortable sleeping with it, what could skew the data...

If you try it, please let me know if you make your HRV improve!
Could you guide me a bit? What is a good grounding mat ?
 

Viala

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I'm sorry you didn't find earthing to protect you from EMF. I guess it is is advisable to try to reduce the exposition as much as possible... (I am lucky of not having electrohypersensitivity, but still I try to protect myself as much as possible because it could be an important perpetuating factor keeping us sick...).
Thank you, I really hoped that it would help.

As for the smart meters, yes, you are right, when they are aroud you there's nothing we can do... It is like the WiFis of the neighbors in a building. We just get all of them from all directions... And even painting a room with shielding paint is not enough (I've done it...), at least when living in an apartment
I heard about those paints, a proper shielding is very expensive and it's not that easy to do. Everything need to be shielded 100% for it to work. Might be easier just to move into a faraday cage.
 
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serg1942

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Could you guide me a bit? What is a good grounding mat ?
Sure! Actually, what matters the most is that you see your body voltage drop, and whatever you are using to achieve that will be fine.

So the first thing I'd do is to get a voltmeter with a sensitivity to measure volts with 3 decimals (for example 0.021 volts). With this, the first thing to do is to confirm that your outlet has a proper earth connection.

Alternatively, if you live at a ground floor, you could take a wire out of the window and have it connected to a metallic rod inserted in the ground (I think this is preferable).

(I could look for a video explaining how to do these things. There are plenty).

Now, regarding what to use to get grounded, well, it's really up to you. Actually, I think that grounding at night is preferable, and you can get a mat for this purpose.

I made my own mat by buying a conductive mesh from China, and I made my own grounding cable, by placing a 100.000 omhs resistor in the cable, and an alligator clip to connect the cable with the mesh. Then the cable that is plugged into the outlet, will obviously only be connected to the earthing prong.

But you can buy the cable with the resistor already made, for example this one:

https://www.amazon.com/tierra-antie...9Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

Similarly, you can buy an already made earthing mat, such as:

https://www.amazon.com/-/es/alfombr...&qid=1630421310&sprefix=earthing+mat+&sr=8-14

But they are so expensive, and I got my earthing mat for around 10 dollars.

Now, it is important to check the effectiveness of the grounding mat, and the only way to do this is by measuring your body voltage with the multimeter and observe how much does the grounding lowers it. From my experience, the bigger the contact surface the better, except if you use an electrode to ground yourself, which are very conductive but obviously not as confortable.

I hope this helps! :)
 

Hip

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A lot of people, myself included, notice clear effects of earthing the body while asleep in bed. However, it is very common for the beneficial effects to reverse after a few nights earthing, and then earthing starts to make you feel worse. I have seen this reversal of benefits reported many times. It's a mystery why that happens.

So it will be interesting to see if you can maintain the HRV effects in long term.


When I tried earthing, the first night I slept so profoundly, I slept like a baby. And I felt refreshed when waking. I thought I had discovered the secret to a good night's sleep. The second night I also slept nicely, but not as good as the first night.

But on the third night of earthing, I slept terribly: agitated, tossing and turning in bed, and I kept waking up all night long.

The fourth and all subsequent nights were like that: very agitated sleep where I kept waking up. The nights actually became almost torturous, my sleep became that bad!

I was unable to reproduce the wonderful sleep I had on the first night.



The effects of earthing also seem location and house dependent: one person in this thread reported earthing put their POTS and dysautonomia into remission; but later when she moved house, she found she could not longer get these benefits from earthing.



Generally, the literature on earthing is a little dubious. People talk about the benefits of electrons, but as @Wishful pointed out, this is not really a scientific explanation, as the body is usually electrically neutral anyway (unless you are walking with rubber soles on nylon carpet, in which case the body can pick up a static electric charge).

I don't believe anyone has properly looked into why earthing has effects on the body, but I summarized some studies in this post.



My own theory is that connecting the body to the earth allows the main electricity 50/60 Hz hum to drive a small current in and out of your body at 50 or 60 times per second (as you mentioned earlier). I detail that theory in this post.

When I was earthed, I was able to measure this small current on a digital multimeter, it showed a 0.2 μA of alternating current was running between me and earth, when I was indoors.

And when I moved my body or limbs to within 30 cm or less of a power adaptor plug (power adaptors contain a transformer that creates an oscillating magnetic field in proximity of the adaptor), I found that the current flowing to earth from by body went up to around 1 μA. See this post.

So in effect, I think earthing might be a form of microcurrent therapy.



To test this theory, one could try sleeping with the mains electricity turned off in the house, and then observing whether you get the same benefits.
 
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Wishful

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Isn't voltage just a difference in the concentration of negative/positive charges?Then, if an alternating magnetic field acts on our body it creates an alternating electric field in our cells, and an alternating voltage is created, which can be easily meassured with a voltimeter. It can vary from around 1 to 6 volts.
Now you're talking about induced electric fields, which would be unaffected by grounding. An alternating magnetic field would induce a voltage across the body, which you could measure head to toe or left hand to right hand or whatever, but that wouldn't be affected by changing the potential to ground, which would be a separate measurement. BTW, the '1-6V' limitation is meaningless, since induced voltage can vary from zero to whatever the magnetic field can manage, which might be kilovolts or more.

(note that the number of electrons are changed in the tissues, not just the skin. This is true at least for magnetic fields. Probably not for electric fields).
No, magnetically induced voltage wouldn't change the number of electrons in the body, it would just impose a force on them. Moving electrons in one direction is what causes a voltage difference (more in one direction than in the other).

When you touch the earth, this potential drops to almost cero. In other words, our body equals to the potential of the earth, meaning that the negative charges move from earth to our body. This negative charges will prevent the initial magnetic field from inducing a voltage in our body. The only way I know of doing this is by increasing the negative charges of the body.
Nope, charge on a body, negative or positive, does not affect magnetic induction. Take a wire connected to a voltmeter and move a magnet past it, and you'll see a voltage induced. Now repeat with the wire also connected to a different voltage with respect to earth ground. It doesn't matter whether the wire is megavolts positive or negative respect to ground, the voltage induced across the wire (or human body) doesn't change. So no, grounding does not protect you from induced voltage.

Also, electromagnetic fields do create free radicals in the body by opening the calcium voltage gated channels. By doing so they are increasing the body voltage in the tissues (not just the skin), and by doing so the number of positive charges in the body increase.
No, the EMFs are not increasing body voltage; they're altering the electric potential across those tiny channels. As with the wire in the example above, grounding won't affect that. The channels or the cells are effectively tiny wires which a changing magnetic field can induce voltage in.
 

Wishful

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And free radicals lack an electron in the outer orbit so they are a positive ion. And when grounded, electrons must pass from earth to the body. So I don't see why these electrons couldn't be given to the free radicals to neutralize them. I think this is a plausible theory.
No, it's not a plausible theory. Grounding proponents and the "You need to fight free radicals!" marketers play loose with terminology. Free radicals are not actually 'lacking' an electron; they have an unfilled covalent bond. Those molecules will then try to form covalent bonds with other molecules, which can prevent them from doing their intended task. They will not be reduced by free electrons. I suggest you review basic covalent chemistry (it's been a long time since I studied it too).

Also, by basic physics, a conductive body will be electrically neutral inside, with an equal number of positive and negative localized charges. Connecting it to a positive or negative source (or ground) will change the number of electrons on the outer surface, but not the number beneath that surface. That phenomenon can be expressed as a simple mathematical equation, vector mathematics IIRC.

In short, the usual theories for how grounding works on people are wrong from basic science. Hip's theory of induced microcurrents is at least not completely contrary to known basic science. Voltages induced within the body can affect ion flow through cell membranes and other such things. They won't neutralize free radicals though.
 

Hip

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Even after weeks of not earthing during sleep?
I tried stopping earthing for a few weeks, and then restarting.

Although I did not get the very agitated insomnia issue on the first night, I also did not get the very high quality sleep I got with the very first two nights of earthing either. I just sleep normally at best on the first night.

And then as before, after a couple of nights of earthing in a row, the agitated insomnia returned.


I've seen this reversal of benefit after some days reported by several people, so it appears to be a common phenomenon in earthing.
 
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I've seen this reversal of benefit after some days reported by several people, so it appears to be a common phenomenon in earthing.
Wow, thank you for sharing. I would be curious if smaller doses helped regularly, like earthing for only 10-90 mins a day.
 

serg1942

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Now you're talking about induced electric fields, which would be unaffected by grounding. An alternating magnetic field would induce a voltage across the body, which you could measure head to toe or left hand to right hand or whatever, but that wouldn't be affected by changing the potential to ground, which would be a separate measurement. BTW, the '1-6V' limitation is meaningless, since induced voltage can vary from zero to whatever the magnetic field can manage, which might be kilovolts or more.



No, magnetically induced voltage wouldn't change the number of electrons in the body, it would just impose a force on them. Moving electrons in one direction is what causes a voltage difference (more in one direction than in the other).



Nope, charge on a body, negative or positive, does not affect magnetic induction. Take a wire connected to a voltmeter and move a magnet past it, and you'll see a voltage induced. Now repeat with the wire also connected to a different voltage with respect to earth ground. It doesn't matter whether the wire is megavolts positive or negative respect to ground, the voltage induced across the wire (or human body) doesn't change. So no, grounding does not protect you from induced voltage.



No, the EMFs are not increasing body voltage; they're altering the electric potential across those tiny channels. As with the wire in the example above, grounding won't affect that. The channels or the cells are effectively tiny wires which a changing magnetic field can induce voltage in.

Thank you for your detailed response. I'm certainly not an expert, so I really appreciate the debate. Let me this time back my assertions with scientific literature and let me know if and where my arguments are flowed. Let me also not go through each point, but instead to focus on the possible mechanism of action of grounding:

0. EDIT: I'm just adding this study I just found in order to put all the info together.

This study demonstrates that you can give electrons from an electric current to a bacteria, and that these electrons will be used as a source of energy by the mitochondria.

They find that the electrons given from the electric current reduce NAD+ into NADH, and NADH is known to in turn reduce oxidized glutathione. So, here we have a plausible pathway to actually take electrons from the earth and give them to free radicals, via glutathione.

Could you pleases explain why this process is not possible in humans? What's the difference?:

(...) This work demonstrates that cathodic electrons enter the electron transport chain of S. oneidensis when oxygen is used as the terminal electron acceptor. (...) The possibility of these cathode-derived electrons entering the cellular electron transport chain (ETC) was investigated (...) the interaction of cathodic electrons with the cellular electron transport chain, specifically in protein components that interact with protons (i.e., the bc1 complex and complex I), is supported by this work (Table 1). Combined with evidence from electron transport chain inhibitor studies (Fig. 2 and 3) and ATP quantification (Fig. 4), these data strongly suggest the generation of proton motive force and subsequent utilization for cellular processes under aerobic and cathodic conditions.(...)

https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/mBio.02203-17


1. Low and high frequency EMFs causes free radicals in the tissues, and because free radicals are positive ions (they lack an electron in the valence orbit), this means that EMFs cause oxidation of tissues, or in electric terms, we can say that EMFs induce an excess of positive charges:

(...) Exposure to EMF has been observed to cause increased free radical production in the cellular environment. (...) EMF disrupts the chemical structures of tissue since a high degree electromagnetic energy absorption can change the electric current in the body [23]. (...) Although non-thermal effects do not raise the body temperature sufficiently to impair the structure of tissues, their effects can still be seen as an increase in free radical production in tissues [3]. EMFs, no matter where they occur in the frequency spectrum, are reported to causes a rise in levels of oxygen free radicals in an experimental environment in plants and humans (...) Excessive elevation in ROS levels is an important cause of oxidative damage in lipids and proteins and nucleic acids (...)Low frequency (0–300 Hz) and RF (10 MHz–300 GHz) EMF has also been reported to alter the permeability of the blood–brain barrier (...)


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6025786/

2. Given the point 1, there's no doubt that tissues are affected by EMFs, so the effect of 50 Hz Ac EMFs is not only limited to the skin as you pose.

3. The Earth has a negative voltage compared to us because it has more negative charges:

(...) Earth's surface possesses a limitless and continuously renewed supply of free or mobile electrons. The surface of the planet is electrically conductive (except in limited ultradry areas such as deserts), and its negative potential is maintained (i.e., its electron supply replenished) by the global atmospheric electrical circuit [1, 2].(...)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3265077/


4. The whole body is a conductor.

5. When a conductor touches a charged surface, electrons are going to move from the pole of lower electrical potential to the point of highest potential (this is basic electricity I guess...). For example, if you connect a neutral copper wire to the negative pole of a battery in an open circuit, the wire will equalize to the same potential of the negative pole, and for this to happen electrons will move from the negative pole to the wire until the whole copper wire is charged at the same potential.

6. Given the point 5, If the body touches the ground, electrons will flow from the ground to the wire. Individual electrons obviously move very slowly, but the charge they represent as a whole will move at the speed of light.

7. Now, I think that taking the above points into consideration, it makes sense to hypothesize that when grounded, positive charges of the body can get neutralized by the electrons coming from the earth, meaning that free radicals can be neutralized.

8. Ok, you say this is not possible. Please let's going to analyze the study where grounding increases the negative charges of the RBCs:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22757749/#:~:text=Results: Earthing or grounding increased,reduces blood viscosity and clumping.

The red blood cells have, like all cells, a given membrane potential, that is determined mainly by the number of charges of the lipids in the membrane. When you apply a free radical such as H2O2 to the medium containing RBCs, this free radical will oxidize the lipids of the membrane, literally stealing electrons from them, making the membrane less electronegative:

(...) These studies have shown that hydrogen peroxide causes a stiffening of the membrane and reduction in elasticity but these mechanical changes are believed to arise mainly from oxidation-driven formation of haemoglobin–spectrin complexes [35] with only a limited effect on the membrane lipid bilayer itself. The imposed rigidity of the cytoskeleton means that any reduction in cross-sectional area of the membrane lipids that arises due to the partial lipid oxidation (...) Exposure of the cells to 0.4 mM hydrogen peroxide caused ψd to decrease by 13 (± 8)% at the centre of the cell and 8 (± 5)% at the edge (...)

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0005273613000059


This makes RBCs to repel less from each other, and cause clumping of RBCs. This can be calculated as the Z potential of RBCs, and when grounding, the negative charges of the RBCs membrane increases 2.7 folds.

Don't you think that this phenomenom could easily be explained by the earth giving negative charges to RBCs when grounding?

How else could you explain this?


9. Finally, I understand that AC EMFs just move the body charges back and forth. But this process disrupts many molecules leading to the creation of positive charges or free radicals as stated above.

Ok, sorry for the long message and thank you again for the debate!

Sergio[GROUP=][/GROUP]
 
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serg1942

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No, it's not a plausible theory. Grounding proponents and the "You need to fight free radicals!" marketers play loose with terminology. Free radicals are not actually 'lacking' an electron; they have an unfilled covalent bond. Those molecules will then try to form covalent bonds with other molecules, which can prevent them from doing their intended task. They will not be reduced by free electrons. I suggest you review basic covalent chemistry (it's been a long time since I studied it too).

Also, by basic physics, a conductive body will be electrically neutral inside, with an equal number of positive and negative localized charges. Connecting it to a positive or negative source (or ground) will change the number of electrons on the outer surface, but not the number beneath that surface. That phenomenon can be expressed as a simple mathematical equation, vector mathematics IIRC.

In short, the usual theories for how grounding works on people are wrong from basic science. Hip's theory of induced microcurrents is at least not completely contrary to known basic science. Voltages induced within the body can affect ion flow through cell membranes and other such things. They won't neutralize free radicals though.
This study demonstrates that you can give electrons from an exogenous source of electric current to a bacteria, and that these electrons will be used as a source of energy by the mitochondria.

They find that the electrons given from the electric current reduce NAD+ into NADH, and NADH is known to in turn reduce oxidized glutathione. So, here we have a plausible pathway to actually take electrons from the earth and give them to free radicals, via glutathione.

Could you pleases explain why this process is not possible in humans? What's the difference?:

(...) This work demonstrates that cathodic electrons enter the electron transport chain of S. oneidensis when oxygen is used as the terminal electron acceptor. (...) The possibility of these cathode-derived electrons entering the cellular electron transport chain (ETC) was investigated (...) the interaction of cathodic electrons with the cellular electron transport chain, specifically in protein components that interact with protons (i.e., the bc1 complex and complex I), is supported by this work (Table 1). Combined with evidence from electron transport chain inhibitor studies (Fig. 2 and 3) and ATP quantification (Fig. 4), these data strongly suggest the generation of proton motive force and subsequent utilization for cellular processes under aerobic and cathodic conditions.(...)

https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/mBio.02203-17
 
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