Hyponatremia as a cause? Salt deficiency, dehydration, too much peeing

[rlc]

Hi CBS, just to clear things up i wasn't meaning that the cause of DI was drinking excessive amounts of water, Im well aware of that it is caused by pituitary damage causing a lack of Vasopressin etc, etc

Forgive me if i didn't make it clear but i was trying to explain the difference between the symptoms of DI, abormal increase in urine output, fluid intake and often thirst, compared to the symptoms of Adrenal proplems needing more salt, not able to retain extra liquids when consumed.

Emootje is right DI causes hpernatremia not hyponatrmia

The symptoms of Di are
Universal Symptoms of Diabetes Insipidus
Increased thirst

Increased drinking

Increased urination


Variable Symptoms of Diabetes Insipidus
Bed-wetting

Getting up at night to urinate


The Universal and Variable Symptoms of Diabetes Insipidus occur:
in the absence of high blood and/or urine sugar

are sometimes associated with various other symptoms due to concomitant damage to other hormones or organs.


Potential Results of Increased Sodium Levels:
An unmanaged sodium level may result in dehydration. A sodium level greater than 140-150 mEq/1 indicates dehydration. If it gets no higher than 155 mEq/1, the dehydration is relatively mild and is unlikely to cause a severe problem but it could and probably would produce slight brain damage that could gradually increase over long periods of time. Therefore, an effort should be made to keep the sodium below 150 mEq/1.

To use Cort as an example he's saying he has salt cravings and increased urination only when he's consumed extra liquids. Which fits with the symptoms of Adrenal problems, for example some of the multitude of symptoms of Addison's include severe fatigue and weakness, loss of weight, increased pigmentation of the skin, faintness and low blood pressure, nausea, salt cravings and painful muscles and joints. Which are very likely to be confused for those of CFS, and people do get misdiagnosed with CFS when they have Adrenal problems

Going of at a slight tangent did you ever find the cause of your low ceruloplasmin results if not here's a link to the conditions that cause it http://en.diagnosispro.com/differential_diagnosis-for/ceruloplasmin-lab-decreased/11941-153.html

If anyone reading this thinks they might have either of these conditions they can be tested for and treated how to test for Diabetes insididus can be found here http://www.diabetesinsipidus.org/diagnostictests.htm Ive put links to information on tests for Adrenal problems on page 8 of the salt poll tread in the lifestyle management and on page 4 of the known cfs misdiagnosis tread in the diagnostic guidelines section

All the best

 

[rlc]

Hi InTuneJune as far as i know you can't have dehydration and significant leg swelling, if the swelling is caused by edema. Have any of these doctors tested your blood sodium level to find out if you have a problem with salt? There's about two hundred causes of edema, some arn't to much to worry about, other can be quite serious, so my advise would be to keep pushing them to find the cause, rather then just treating the symptom, all the best hope it sorts out soon!

 

[wallace]

one strategy! Vit C and salt protocol

tried Salt/C for a couple of months years ago and gave up as it made no difference to my symtoms.
As with any protocol abx etc there are dangers and risks involved but I never considered it espechially dangerous. Just not universally effective!!!

its unfortunate that people advocating it are selling e books as that gives the protocol not the right image!

That said I do think drinking enough pure water is important. How much is enough? I kinda agree with Dr Robert O young when he says you should aim for 1 litre of water for every 30lbs of body weight. Thats my personal innovation!

However since then I have had cavational surgery on my jaw and got my teeth sorted out and I have just restared the salt/C protocol and this time I do feel a difference!!

I am on 20 g of celtic salt and also take 4g of effeversent Vit C. I know that is a low amout of vit C but its my preference. I take a little clay and charcoal for mopping up the toxins.

Any one else here on it?

wallace

 

[wallace]

see www.lymephotos.com

 

[wallace]

http://www.lymephotos.com/faq/index.html

 

[taniaaust1]

Hi Wallace .. I find Vitamin C helps me a little (maybe cause its an antioxident). I do salt everything as my sodium level goes abnormally low at times (something is obviously wrong with my body for me to get abnormal sodium blood levels when Ive never avoided salt).. but the salt dont seem to do anything.

I cant remember now exactly what it did but a couple of people in the past were harmed by the salt and C protocol, so take care.

 

[Tammie]

Re dehydration & edema (YES they can and often do co-exist)

InTrueJune and Ric, actually it is VERY possible to be dehydrated and have edema at the same time.....many diuretics can actually cause edema even though that would seem counterintuitive

here is an explanation that I found....i am not familiar with the source, but it fits with what I have previously read on trusted sources:

The reason people get Edema.
We have been mislead to believe that edema is due to overdrinking of water. The opposite is true, prolonged dehydration had cause edema.

Here you can learn and understand the need for water, salt and potassium together regulate the water content of the human body. Water regulates the water content of the interior of the cell by working its way into all the (trillions)cells it reaches. Water has to get there to cleanse and extract the toxic waste of cell metabolism.

Once water gets into the cells, the potassium content of the cells holds on to it and keeps it there -- to the extent that potassium is available inside the cells.

Even in the plant kingdom, it is potassium in the fruit that gives it firmness by holding water in the interior of the fruit. Our daily food contains ample potassium from its natural sources of fruits and vegetables, but not salt from its natural sources. That is why we need to add salt to our daily diet.
Note: Do not take too much potassium as a dietary supplement (if you are taking right now). It could cause trouble.

Good health depends on a most delicate balance between the volumes of 'watery-oceans' held inside the cells of the human body, and the other 'watery-oceans' held outside the cells. This delicate balance is achieved by the regular intake of water, potassium-rich fruits and vegetables that also contain the organic vitamins needed by the human body, and salt. Unrefined sea salt, which contains some of the other trace minerals that the body needs, is preferable. Avoid the regular table-salt. Sea salt may not contain enough iodine to keep the thyroid gland working normally, and it may enlarge into a goiter. regular intake of a multivitamin (ensure it's plant based organic supplements) that contains iodine is essential. Another source of iodine is dried kelp capsules, which are available from health food stores/supermarkets.

When water is not available to get into the cells freely, it is filtered from the outside 'salty-ocean' and injected into the cells that are being overworked despite their water shortage. This secondary and emergency means of supplying important cells with injected water is the reason, in severe dehydration, that we retain salt and develop edema -- to have more water available to draw from for filtration and injection into the cells.

Recall, the design of our bodies is such that the extent of the 'ocean-of-water' outside the cells is expanded to have extra water in reserve for filtration and emergency injection into vital cells. To achieve this, the brain commands an increase in salt and water retention by the kidneys. This directive of the brain is the reason we get edema when we don't drink enough water, in accordance to our own body weight, daily. Remember the water-cure formula to calculate your own water quota requirement.

When water shortage in the body reaches a more critical level, and delivery of water by its injection into the trillions cells becomes the main route of supply to more and more cells, an associated rise in injection pressure becomes necessary. The significant rise in pressure needed to inject water into the cells to service them becomes measurable and is labeled "hypertension," or high blood pressure. The drugs used will make the body natural survival functions to deteriorate and cause more complication of organs malfunctions overtime.

Initially, the process of water filtration and its delivery into the cells is more efficient at night when the human body is horizontal, normal sleeping posture. In this position, the collected water, which settles mostly in the legs during the day, does not have to fight the forge of gravity to get into the blood circulation. If reliance on this process of emergency hydration of some cells continues for long, the lungs begin to get waterlogged at night, and breathing becomes difficult. The person needs more pillows support to sit upright to sleep. This condition is called cardiac asthma, and it is the consequence of dehydration.

However, in this condition you must not overload the system by drinking too much water at the beginning. All things in nature have natural law governing them. Just be patient and reverse the symptoms slow and steady. Increases in water intake must be slow and spaced out -- until urine production begins to increase at the same rate that you drink water.

When we drink enough water to pass clear urine, we also pass out a lot of the salt that was held back. This is how we can get rid of edema fluid from the body. Not diuretics/more drugs please, but by more gentle increase of water intake! Water is the best natural diuretic and natural detoxicator that exists. You can rest assured of positive results, anytime, with water-cure protocol.

In a person who has extensive edema and whose heart sometimes beats irregularly or rapidly with little effort, the increase in water intake should be gradual and spaced out, but water should not be withheld from the human body. Salt intake should be sea salt, and be limited for two or three days because the body is still in an overdrive mode to retain it. Once the edema has cleared , sea salt should again be added to your diet. If there are irregular heartbeats, or the pulse is fast and furious but there is no edema, increase water, salt, and other minerals such as magnesium, calcium, and some potassium ,all in organic form, will alleviate the problem.

 

[Wayne]

Lymephotos.com - GU Syndrome - Lyme Disease

However since then I have had cavational surgery on my jaw and got my teeth sorted out and I have just restared the salt/C protocol and this time I do feel a difference!! ...... I am on 20 g of celtic salt and also take 4g of effeversent Vit C. I know that is a low amout of vit C but its my preference. I take a little clay and charcoal for mopping up the toxins. ...... Any one else here on it?

Hey Wallace,

I just ran across across the website at lymephotos.com. Holy moly, what an eyeopener! After discovering it, I did a search here and saw your post. I would be most interested to hear how you're doing on your Salt/C protocol. I think I remember Slayadragon saying at one time it was not good for her at all, but I didn't have a clue at the time what the therapy was about. I now suspect she may have experienced an immediate and significant dieoff of who knows what kind of microscopic parasite.

I'm in the processing of really buckling down and doing some research on Lyme Disease and Lyme treatment. The things I'm running across are quite phenomonal. I was wondering if you're familiar with the concept of GU Syndrome? Heiner Fruehauf believes Lyme Disease is a modern day manifestation of the microscopic parasitic infections that were labeled GU Syndrome by ancient Chinese medical texts. And I suspect many pictures on lymephotos.com would fit into the same category. Sure makes me think many cases of ME/CFS are probably the same thing. Any thoughts?

Wayne

 

[Wayne]

Oral Salt Therapy

The following section explains how the Salt/C protocol works agaisnt Lyme bacteria. It apparently works the same way against many other pathogens/parasites. The full article from which I copied the following segment is entitled:

Lyme Disease, Potential Plague of the 21st Century
- by Professor Robert W. Bradford and Henry W. Allen

................................................................................

Oral Salt Therapy

Certain white blood cells (WBC) display several distinct mechanisms that may be employed for the purpose of killing invading microorganisms. One of these deserves particular attention in relation to killing the causative agent of Lyme disease, namely, the spirochete Borrelia burgdorferi.

Neutrophils (a class of WBC) contain two essentially different types of storage granules, peroxidase-positive granules and peroxidase-negative granules. Peroxidase-positive granules contain myeloperoxidase, an enzyme that uses hypochlorous acid (HOCl) in conjunction with hydrogen peroxide, providing a source of nascent (atomic) oxygen for the purpose of killing invading microorganisms.11

Peroxidase-negative granules contain a family of large polypeptides (11 to 19 kDa) (Dalton, the unit of molecular weight) known as the cathelicidins or, in humans, hCAP-18. A segment of this larger or precursor protein (also known as a Bacteriacidal Permeability-Increasing (BPI) protein) is proteolytically removed by the enzyme elastase found in peroxidase-positive granules. The better-known substrate of elastase is the elastic protein elastin, found in skin and other tissues requiring elasticity. By incorporating elastase inhibitors into skin creams, attempts are made to inhibit the activity of this enzyme, thereby decreasing the ageing of skin. In Lyme therapy there is an advantage (described below) to increasing the activity of this enzyme, thereby stimulating the natural antimicrobial system. These short peptides, ranging from 12 to 100 amino acids, have the ability to assemble into larger units that form pores in the membrane surrounding microorganisms, thereby increasing the permeability of those membranes. In humans, one of these antimicrobial peptides has been dubbed LL-37.11 See photo of a neutrophil granule precursor antimicrobial protein and peptide, 31KB .pdf, courtesy of Blood 96 (8) 2000.

Both of these proteins, the cathelicidin and elastase, meet in the phagocytic vacuole, the cytoplasmic chamber in which resides the phagocytized microorganism. Within this chamber, elastase removes a short peptide capable of forming a molecular pore in the surface membrane of the microorganism. The pore formed from a group of the cathelicidins allows the efflux of potassium ions from the organism, resulting in swelling and eventual lysis.12

Research has shown that, of all the proteins in neutrophil granules, the only protein capable of releasing the cathelicidin active peptide is elastase.13 It has been demonstrated that the activity of elastase is enhanced by an increased salt concentration.14 Through oral salt (12 g per day, see Chart 12), combined with large doses of vitamin C, the indirect killing ability of elastase is dramatically increased.15

Increasing the sodium concentration surrounding the spirochete may also facilitate cell killing by allowing sodium ions to enter the spirochete through the pore created by the antimicrobial peptide. An increased intracellular sodium concentration, combined with a decreased potassium concentration, leads to spirochete death. The exact mechanism by which the human cathelicidin LL-37 kills Bb is unknown. See Chart 8, Oral Salt Therapy for Lyme Disease. (58KB .pdf)

 

[taniaaust1]

Hey Wallace,

I just ran across across the website at lymephotos.com. Holy moly, what an eyeopener! Wayne

I just looked at that website and have to comment on something I saw there. It says "we settled on a dosage of 3 grams of salt and 3,000 mg of vitamin C, each dose taken 4 times per day." and "Diarrhea will occur as your body sheds itself of the pathogens".

I'd like to point out that taking that much Vitamin C is enough to give many people or most people diarrhea .. so any diarrhea which happens from anyone doing that, isnt necessarily due to pathogens.

 

[wallace]

Yep Yu syndrome seems about right. TCM needs to follow this guy. I saw a top practitioner and I am sure he never tried this!

20 g of vit C of course would cause that. I dont think you need that amount. Still at 4g.

People disagree about how much water is best to drink.

The consensus seems that the best salt is himalayan. I have switched to that and feel better.

Still on
20g salt.

See my ramblings on
http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/74996/4

for info on facebook site etc

 

[boolybooly]

Hi there, resurrecting this thread because its in an appropriate forum and the topic has come up again in another thread. No point starting a new thread and then going over the same facts. This thread is still worth reading.

@Lynne B + @MeSci I can understand your desire to find answers, I think most pwme and carers feel the same way. I studied zoology before ME struck, so bioscience background like many people here though not medical, also informed by 30 years in the wilderness with ME CFIDS, so kind of a scientific survivalist.

I have heard of erythromelalgia before in a pwme. Hyponatremia in blood plasma might exacerbate this because according to the URL below it causes fluid pressure to build up inside cells due to osmotic transport of water into the cell, which might result in something like edema as mentioned in a post above, like inflammation only not. The 'solution' would be to try taking more salt and see how it goes, possibly Cheney's recommended isotonic K/Na mix, linked in previous post.

see also
http://www.livestrong.com/article/502449-can-a-low-sodium-level-cause-high-blood-pressure/

Cheney mix URL
https://www.healthrising.org/treati...onic-fatigue-syndrome-mecfs-and-fibromyalgia/

If kidney function is sub par in ME due to low energy then it would be no surprise to find sodium levels dropping. I think dosing minerals is useful because of this, but you have to be careful of doses and ratios.

K/Na Ca/Mg and Cu/Zn are three mineral ratios I take seriously and overdosing can be as bad as underdosing so its a question of finding a happy medium. I normally end up supplementing Zn only but the other two ratios (K/Na & Ca/Mg) I try to take both minerals in a 2:1 ratio respectively.

Also @MeSci re your migraines (I took a look at your profile to try to understand what you were asking me, hope that is OK) fyi last year I believe enterovirus D68 hit the headlines for causing paralysis in some children. I am pretty sure it has been doing the rounds, several odd looking sudden deaths in the media, and something has been causing me extra problems resulting in Bornholm disease symptoms which are intercostal cramps and heart palpitations. I get recurring viruses due to my immune dysfunction so it has hung around. At the same time I have also been getting migraines about once every 5-6 days, though partly due to PIP stress it isnt normal for me and it struck me it might be something to do with D68 or whichever enterovirus it is. I found that making sure I had hot food helped as temp can make a difference, in particular I found bovril with added lo salt (for K) and normal salt (for Na) was helpful and I also took extra lysine where necessary as this helps immunity. I have also been taking potassium gluconate and sodium ascorbate (approx 2.5 : 1 by volume) in my morning mineral water (because K helps maintain heart rhythm, Mg is also helpful with this but both need to be balanced with Na and Ca respectively).

 

[*GG*]

That's very interesting because once I start drinking water - it just pours out of me. I can't hold it in either. If I don't drink much I don't pee much but if I do - and I generally feel better when I do - then I'm going all the time. I also have urinate with amazing frequency when I get cold.

I also crave salt - I feel like I need it on almost everything I eat - and my blood pressure is fine. Maybe I should really try to boost my electrolytes.......

This is very much me! Although I have been on blood pressure meds for about 1 year now, ill 14 years.

GG

 

[Lynne B]

Hi there, resurrecting this thread because its in an appropriate forum and the topic has come up again in another thread. No point starting a new thread and then going over the same facts. This thread is still worth reading.

@Lynne B + @MeSci I can understand your desire to find answers, I think most pwme and carers feel the same way. I studied zoology before ME struck, so bioscience background like many people here though not medical, also informed by 30 years in the wilderness with ME CFIDS, so kind of a scientific survivalist.

I have heard of erythromelalgia before in a pwme. Hyponatremia in blood plasma might exacerbate this because according to the URL below it causes fluid pressure to build up inside cells due to osmotic transport of water into the cell, which might result in something like edema as mentioned in a post above, like inflammation only not. The 'solution' would be to try taking more salt and see how it goes, possibly Cheney's recommended isotonic K/Na mix, linked in previous post.

see also
http://www.livestrong.com/article/502449-can-a-low-sodium-level-cause-high-blood-pressure/

Cheney mix URL
https://www.healthrising.org/treati...onic-fatigue-syndrome-mecfs-and-fibromyalgia/

If kidney function is sub par in ME due to low energy then it would be no surprise to find sodium levels dropping. I think dosing minerals is useful because of this, but you have to be careful of doses and ratios.

K/Na Ca/Mg and Cu/Zn are three mineral ratios I take seriously and overdosing can be as bad as underdosing so its a question of finding a happy medium. I normally end up supplementing Zn only but the other two ratios (K/Na & Ca/Mg) I try to take both minerals in a 2:1 ratio respectively.

Also @MeSci re your migraines (I took a look at your profile to try to understand what you were asking me, hope that is OK) fyi last year I believe enterovirus D68 hit the headlines for causing paralysis in some children. I am pretty sure it has been doing the rounds, several odd looking sudden deaths in the media, and something has been causing me extra problems resulting in Bornholm disease symptoms which are intercostal cramps and heart palpitations. I get recurring viruses due to my immune dysfunction so it has hung around. At the same time I have also been getting migraines about once every 5-6 days, though partly due to PIP stress it isnt normal for me and it struck me it might be something to do with D68 or whichever enterovirus it is. I found that making sure I had hot food helped as temp can make a difference, in particular I found bovril with added lo salt (for K) and normal salt (for Na) was helpful and I also took extra lysine where necessary as this helps immunity. I have also been taking potassium gluconate and sodium ascorbate (approx 2.5 : 1 by volume) in my morning mineral water (because K helps maintain heart rhythm, Mg is also helpful with this but both need to be balanced with Na and Ca respectively).

@boolybooly Many thanks for going to the trouble of providing this reply. Very interesting, although at first glance some of the responses in the various threads seem contradictory. A lot of it is above me at the moment but I'll work on that. Several good ideas and approaches to try here, starting right now with half a tomato for morning tea...

Cheers, Lynne B

 

[boolybooly]

Well I am still thinking about it @Lynne B , low sodium makes sense but I still cannot understand why high blood pressure. Will bear it in mind and if I come across anything I will say, I have this thread bookmarked.

Personally I have a food intolerance with tomatos, gives me mouth ulcers++, in fact all the nightshades do, so I gave them up and thereby hangs a tale. I plan to write it up later, after I get PIP out of the way but I guess we are all different.

 

[MeSci]

@Lynne B + @MeSci I can understand your desire to find answers, I think most pwme and carers feel the same way. I studied zoology before ME struck, so bioscience background like many people here though not medical, also informed by 30 years in the wilderness with ME CFIDS, so kind of a scientific survivalist.

...
If kidney function is sub par in ME due to low energy then it would be no surprise to find sodium levels dropping. I think dosing minerals is useful because of this, but you have to be careful of doses and ratios.

K/Na Ca/Mg and Cu/Zn are three mineral ratios I take seriously and overdosing can be as bad as underdosing so its a question of finding a happy medium. I normally end up supplementing Zn only but the other two ratios (K/Na & Ca/Mg) I try to take both minerals in a 2:1 ratio respectively.

Also @MeSci re your migraines (I took a look at your profile to try to understand what you were asking me, hope that is OK) fyi last year I believe enterovirus D68 hit the headlines for causing paralysis in some children. I am pretty sure it has been doing the rounds, several odd looking sudden deaths in the media, and something has been causing me extra problems resulting in Bornholm disease symptoms which are intercostal cramps and heart palpitations. I get recurring viruses due to my immune dysfunction so it has hung around. At the same time I have also been getting migraines about once every 5-6 days, though partly due to PIP stress it isnt normal for me and it struck me it might be something to do with D68 or whichever enterovirus it is. I found that making sure I had hot food helped as temp can make a difference, in particular I found bovril with added lo salt (for K) and normal salt (for Na) was helpful and I also took extra lysine where necessary as this helps immunity. I have also been taking potassium gluconate and sodium ascorbate (approx 2.5 : 1 by volume) in my morning mineral water (because K helps maintain heart rhythm, Mg is also helpful with this but both need to be balanced with Na and Ca respectively).

I can't answer in much detail, but just want to say that I think I have had a tendency to hyponatraemia all my life (or at least as long as I can remember - always craved salt). My migraines have become less frequent lately. But I'm not very compos mentis much of the time at the moment.

I'm taking a lot of supplements at present and am not sure what everything does! But I've just restarted bioperine in a turmeric supplement which I hope will help (can't remember if it did last time!).

 

[MeSci]

I can't answer in much detail, but just want to say that I think I have had a tendency to hyponatraemia all my life (or at least as long as I can remember - always craved salt). My migraines have become less frequent lately. But I'm not very compos mentis much of the time at the moment.

I'm taking a lot of supplements at present and am not sure what everything does! But I've just restarted bioperine in a turmeric supplement which I hope will help (can't remember if it did last time!).

Just want to say - I stopped the bioperine and turmeric again a few days ago. It didn't seem to be helping. Worse with the bioperine than without, it seemed.

 

[boolybooly]

I wondered whether your high blood pressure was accompanied by signs of poor circulation?

Because it struck me that there was one obvious possibility for explaining the high blood pressure with low sodium, which is that if there isnt enough salt in your blood and the blood vessel wall cells expand due to osmotic influx, it could reduce the internal volume of the vascular system and raise blood pressure that way.

In which case the fix remains to follow your medical advice and get more salt.

Personally I eat plenty of salt, also celery every day which contains a blood thinner among other things. I tend to feel worse if I miss it out after a few days and noticeably better within hours if I start eating it again. FYI

 

[*GG*]

I wondered whether your high blood pressure was accompanied by signs of poor circulation?

Because it struck me that there was one obvious possibility for explaining the high blood pressure with low sodium, which is that if there isn't enough salt in your blood and the blood vessel wall cells expand due to osmotic influx, it could reduce the internal volume of the vascular system and raise blood pressure that way.

In which case the fix remains to follow your medical advice and get more salt.

Personally I eat plenty of salt, also celery every day which contains a blood thinner among other things. I tend to feel worse if I miss it out after a few days and noticeably better within hours if I start eating it again. FYI

Interesting, I have been taking it lots of salt with my water when I exercise outdoors this winter. I started the salt in water to keep my water from freezing, only works to above 20 degrees F.

Recently been diagnosed with high BP, still seems my body is low in salt, even though I am not afraid to use it!

GG

 

[Harmen]

I really recognise the symptoms of the topic starter. First time I found someone with the same symptoms.

My fatigue is lifted inmensly if i supplement huge amounts of salt (3~4 teaspoons if I am low). Constipation, out of breath, bonking slow beating heart, fatige, cramps, extreme urination (like within 10 minutes after drinking it is peed out already), extreme thirst, no hunger etc all are relieved after 3 tsp of sea salt. Sleep is improved too. After a while I got low in potassium as well so I supplement both now. A shortage of potassium feels about thr same, with the difference that potassium makes me depressed as well.

Had adrenal fatigue but that condition did improve, still had these conplaints.

After heavy and complex youth trauma surfaced, (i have ptsd now instead of cfs) I slept with alprazolam for a month. Suddenly, the salt issues resolved itself.

For any future one reading this, find out what makes you so stressed! Maybe you have to dig very deep like me. There are multiple ways to find this out, therapy, but also psychedelics can be a usefull tool (dont treat these lightly).