hypercoagulation and M.E. - could nattokinase help??

[Shanti1]

Also does anyone know the safe dose of this to take per day? Is it safe to take 3 2000 FU capsules per day?

This overview of nattokinase lists studies done since 2018. The highest dose used in the studies was 6,500FU daily for 26 weeks with no side-effects reported. Anecdotaly, I have seen people take high doses like this of nattokinase and serrapeptase with no problem. I have also seen people use massive amounts (even 50 caps per/day) of other proteolytic enzymes to try and address sports injuries and cancer. People with ulcers or gastritis should avoid because you don't want protein digesting enzymes next to an open gastric wound.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Thank you, think I'll try double

 

[Shanti1]

Thank you, think I'll try double

I have learned so much these last few days on the potential causes of lack of adequate blood flow and oxygenation in ME. I am also thinking to try a little protocol to try and address the clotting and RBC deformability issues. I think this may be important in my case as I can feel my brain fog improve even from taking a breath of 100% oxygen from a machine... my brain must be really starved. Please let us know how the Natto works out for you.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Will do.

Bare in mind that pure oxygen regularly is contradicted. But I really cannot remember why now. Someone else may be able to remember.

Took 4000 Fu yesterday. Seemed to but then also tried some aspirin in the evening which not only knocked me out but put me in a bit of a crash. So I won't be doing that again! Going to try more natto now. I'll see how I get on. It's meant to work very fast if it does work.

If you find anything that helps too let us know.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

I think you can't solve that with supplements. H.E.L.P. is giving heparin to the patients.

 

[Shanti1]

Bare in mind that pure oxygen regularly is contradicted. But I really cannot remember why now. Someone else may be able to remember.

I think the issue is breathing high concentrations of O2 for extended periods when you don't need it, you can develop a sort of "oxygen toxicity". Short-term duration (like in hbot) or a few breaths shouldn't be a prob. In fact, you can buy "canned oxygen" designed for athletes to give a boost, that is actually how I discovered the O2 helped me.

 

[Shanti1]

I think you can't solve that with supplements. H.E.L.P. is giving heparin to the patients.

Ok, you sent me down a rabbit hole, but it was worth it because it turns out that the heparin used in HELP is utilized entirely in the filtering/precipitation process outside of the patient and the heparin is removed before the plasma is returned to the patient. This means that the mechanism of HELP has to do solely with the removal of clotting factors and other components from the serum.

https://vpjournal.net/article/view/3015
[QUOTE = The main effect of H.E.L.P.-apheresis is the elimination of atherogenic lipoproteins due to precipitation. During H.E.L.P.-apheresis, atherogenic lipoproteins and plasma fibrinogen precipitate on-line in the presence of high heparin doses and acetate buffer. Primarily, blood passes through the plasma filter (surface area 0.3-0.5 m2, rate 60-80 mL/min). Red blood cells are returned to the patient, and plasma is mixed with acetate buffer (pH = 4.85) in the ratio 1:1 and with heparin solution (100 U/mL). This acidic mixture (pH = 5.12) reaches the precipitating filter with the rate 20-30 mL/min (25%-30% of blood flow) and precipitates there with further deposition of insoluble sediments of LDL, Lp(a), triglycerides and fibrinogen. Heparin excess is eliminated from plasma on heparin adsorber (DEAE of cellulose). Bicarbonate dialysis is used for restoration of plasma pH. After that plasma is returned to the patient in combination with red blood cells. [/QUOTE]

You still may be right about the limitations of supplements, but I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility. Not looking for a cure, but even a slight improvement in function. @Judee shared this link earlier where it is discussed that some pwME may have responded to low dose heparin, but hard to get that from a doc.
https://cfsremission.com/treatment/thick-blood-clots-dimension-of-cfs-etc/

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Ok, you sent me down a rabbit hole, but it was worth it because it turns out that the heparin used in HELP is utilized entirely in the filtering/precipitation process outside of the patient and the heparin is removed before the plasma is returned to the patient. This means that the mechanism of HELP has to do solely with the removal of clotting factors and other components from the serum.

https://vpjournal.net/article/view/3015
[QUOTE = The main effect of H.E.L.P.-apheresis is the elimination of atherogenic lipoproteins due to precipitation. During H.E.L.P.-apheresis, atherogenic lipoproteins and plasma fibrinogen precipitate on-line in the presence of high heparin doses and acetate buffer. Primarily, blood passes through the plasma filter (surface area 0.3-0.5 m2, rate 60-80 mL/min). Red blood cells are returned to the patient, and plasma is mixed with acetate buffer (pH = 4.85) in the ratio 1:1 and with heparin solution (100 U/mL). This acidic mixture (pH = 5.12) reaches the precipitating filter with the rate 20-30 mL/min (25%-30% of blood flow) and precipitates there with further deposition of insoluble sediments of LDL, Lp(a), triglycerides and fibrinogen. Heparin excess is eliminated from plasma on heparin adsorber (DEAE of cellulose). Bicarbonate dialysis is used for restoration of plasma pH. After that plasma is returned to the patient in combination with red blood cells.

I'm sorry thanks for clarifying. I meant to the patient's blood. I don't think that heparin itself will do the trick. Otherwise we/I would have benefitted from anti-clotting drugs already (many/all bedridden patients in Germany get them prescribed).

 

[Shanti1]

Otherwise we/I would have benefitted from anti-clotting drugs already (many/all bedridden patients in Germany get them prescribed).

Good to know, thanks Martin.