hypercoagulation and M.E. - could nattokinase help??

triffid113

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I thought I'd share this article I just ran across at Life Extension. It basically says that people in general have more and more problems with hypercoagulablity of blood as they age and that inadequate blood flow causes pain. (This is what I understad to be true anyway - all pain is due to obstruction of blood flow and this oxygen to tissues). The culprit seems to be fibrin. That may not be the ultimate cause which may be viral but the lack of oxygen to tissues needs to be fixed, and can be fixed. (I know getting rid of a virus is the ultimate solution and continually getting rid of fibrin caused by a virus is well below optimal, but you gotta take care of what you can until you figure out he rest).

[My blood pressure went up this winter due to allergy caused thyroid problems (which also cause raised cholesterol and thus thickened blood). When spring came it did not go back to normal and I figured my arteries were clogged. I took 15mg K2 (MK-4) on alternate days with a natto pill and in 2 weeks I cleaned my arteries...of course they had not been clogged with years of clog. Natto is reputed to be important in clenaing up fibrin and MK-4 at cleaning up plaque...I think they work - you can investigate, but I just tried it and it seemed to do the trick for me. fyi, MK-7 canNOT be taken in such high dose as I have heard it is toxic in high dose. I am not an expert - that is just what I heard].

Here's the article: http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2002...htm?source=search&key=blood viscosity testing

When tissues don't receive sufficient blood, the cells are starved for oxygen and nutrients. Pain can result, as in headache or fibromyalgia.

blah-blah-blah

When a trauma occurs, such as a severe infection, a car accident or severe emotional stress, most people eventually recover. But a minority go on to develop a chronic condition such as fibromyalgia. These individuals may be suffering from a genetic protein defect that makes them especially prone to develop hypercoagulability. High lipoprotein(a) also promotes hypercoagulability by blocking fibrinolysis. High homocysteine (over 10) is also associated with with hypercoagulability. High blood sugar and high triglycerides also promote elevated blood viscosity. Thromboxane, an eicosanoid derived through the metabolism of polyunsaturated fatty acids, is yet another factor promoting hypercoagulability. Altogether, the regulation of coagulation is quite complex, involving the balance of more than a dozen factors. It takes special tests to establish if a patient might be deficient in proteins C and S, for instance, or shows elevated fibrinogen.

Hypercoagulability can be easily detected through the use of the well-known "sed-rate" blood test. Sed rate of less than 5 indicates hypercoagulability. The difficulty comes in trying to find out the major factor(s) causing the condition. Thus the need for additional testing, so that the right factor (e.g., high lipoprotein(a) or high fibrinogen) can be targeted for treatment.

Virus infections have been singled out as particularly likely to provoke excess fibrin production. This fibrin accumulates in certain places, creating a "fibrin block" that impedes blood flow and deprives a certain area of the body of sufficient oxygen. Ryser said that she finds a history of two to six serious infections per every chronic fatigue patient. There is also suspicion that certain vaccines can act as precipitating agents for inflammation-induced hypercoagulability (e.g. anthrax vaccine contaminated with mycoplasma, a suspect in the Gulf War Syndrome).
...
Our understanding of the aging process is also enhanced by the perception that impeded blood flow leads to local ischemia (oxygen deficiency), and this is turn translates into progressive tissue atrophy. Only fifteen seconds of ischemia turns off the mitochondria. This initiates an apoptosis (programmed cell death) cascade. The shrinking of our organs with age leads to ever-greater pathology. Loss of heart tissue eventually results in congestive heart failure. Loss of glandular tissue results in hormone deficiencies, loss of neural tissue brings on cognitive dysfunction and eventually senile dementia, loss of lung tissue leads to emphysema, and so on. This is the atrophy of aging that we see throughout the body. The new insight is that "ischemia is a silent cause of aging and degenerative disease."
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In order to fight ischemia, we need to keep the blood from getting too viscous and sluggish, and platelets from clumping too readily. We now see that various micronutrients are not only antioxidants, but also anticoagulants. Their great advantage is safety. We know how to counteract various procoagulant factors: high homocysteine, for instance, can be remedied through the use of folic acid, B12 and B6; aspirin, curcumin, ginger and ginkgo inhibit platelet aggregation; curcumin is also known to lower fibrinogen.

High lipoprotein(a) responds to niacin (or inositol hexanicotinate), high doses of vitamin C, and the amino acids lysine and proline. Hormone replacement and exercise also help maintain a more youthful blood circulation. Enzymes such as bromelain and Wobenzym have been found to lower blood viscosity. Even massage is seen in a new light when we learn that it helps release tissue plasminogen activator (tPA) from the lining of blood vessels, thus promoting better circulation.
...
they also mentioned heparin and glucosamine as anticoagulants.

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I would choose natto tho'.

...
I don't know if anyone finds this helpful. Take care
 

Sushi

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I have been taking bromelain for about 6 weeks, 3 capsules, 3 times a day on a empty stomach. It is helping me. I also have nattokinase, and would like to try it with the bromelain or just try to take without the bromelain. How much mattokinase should I take and how many times a day?
 

Sushi

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I have been taking bromelain for about 6 weeks, 3 capsules, 3 times a day on a empty stomach. It is helping me. I also have nattokinase, and would like to try it with the bromelain or just try to take without the bromelain. How much mattokinase should I take and how many times a day?

I've been taking 100 mg. I think that is a pretty good dose. I would take lumbro except for the price!

Sushi
 

SOC

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Is nattokinase a modulator (bringing back to normalcy from either direction) in which case it would be safe to take without a tests, or is it directional (only lowering blood clotting factors) in which case it would be bad to take if one has normal or poor clotting?
 

Asklipia

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Is nattokinase a modulator (bringing back to normalcy from either direction) in which case it would be safe to take without a tests, or is it directional (only lowering blood clotting factors) in which case it would be bad to take if one has normal or poor clotting?
When vitamin K was discovered it was found to be "the clotting vitamin" hence the K. But it has since been understood that it regulates blood viscosity up and down.
My feeling is that it also regulates lymph thickness, even though this is not asserted as far as I know.

Certainly you should not take it without your doctor's advice if your are taking blood-thinners. This does not mean you cannot take it in that case, just that it has to be closely monitored.

You should be aware that some folates increase blood viscosity and irritation by their anti-k mechanism. Glutamates trap the vitamin K. If these folates are not the ones you body needs, the total folate + vitamin K goes down the drain, thus depriving you of much needed vitamin K, and you have a vitamin K deficiency. Any hydrogenated oil does the same.
Best wishes!
Asklipia
 

triffid113

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Is nattokinase a modulator (bringing back to normalcy from either direction) in which case it would be safe to take without a tests, or is it directional (only lowering blood clotting factors) in which case it would be bad to take if one has normal or poor clotting?
Well it is eaten as a cheese by the Japanese in their diets, which is how it was discovered to have these properties. So I would say it's safe unless you are on blood thinners. I, myself, take a lot of blood thinning supplements and having read how natto and MK-4 are strong blood thinners, I took them on alternate days. (I take natto with that low dose MK-7 no problem but not with the 15mg MK-4, which I now take 1 day/week). That's just my take. I take 1g/day E which is a blood thinner, and am contemplating raising that. So I had a little caustion with mixing high doses, not low doses. (fyi, I do not consider the natto a high dose - but the 15mg MK-4 is a very high dose and 1g or more E is also a very high dose. I am unwilling to back off on the E, so it is the MK-4 I am being careful with).
 

triffid113

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btw, since entering this topic I have read that pomegranate at 4 oz per day melts deposits in your arteries...I forget what the studies said exactly regarding how long it takes but I was disturbed to find that pomegranate affects your CYP 3A4 drug metabolism excretion route which is also the excretion route of, if I recall, testosterone and progesterone. So I do not know enough about it (like for instance I do not know if testosterone can be excrete by more than one route, etc), so I would not want to take 4 oz of pomegranate every day. So I figured that if I did it only on weekdays with weekends off (to excrete stuff before it builds up tooooo much) then it would take 3 months to melt 13% of arteriy deposits. I live in Michigan where Beaumont hospital is running a 7 test x $70 and included in those tests is an ekg and an ultrasound evaluation of your arteries. They found 9-21% plaque in one of my carotid arteries so I am targettig that and plan to retest and see how the pomegranate does. Theoretically the MK-4 and natto will help that also.
 

Asklipia

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Sorry about your carotid triffid113. Is it the left one?
Pomegranate is extremely high in folates, hence its reputation for being the fruit that assures conception. For that reason it is a fertility symbol.
A glass of pomegranate juice, or eating let's say two pomegranates, can give you a kick, very similar to fresh wheat germ juice and for the same reason. Like an MSG kick. Glutamates and excitotoxicity.
It will disturb the balance of folates. If you have a folate sensitivity, like most people here, this can be very unpleasant and counterproductive.
Best
Asklipia
 

triffid113

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Oh! I do not know if I have folate sensitivity...sometimes I find I have things but since I never did NOT have them I just think it's just me. But offhand I am not worried about folate sensitivity. What I am absolutely sure I have is glutamate toxicity. However DHEA protects me against that (I believe according to what I read that it is the estrogen it forms that does that). So I am ok, but the next person might not be so this is an important caution. Thank you!
 

IreneF

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I've been eating natto when I can find it, along with other fermented foods. My gut is pretty happy. I don't know about other parts of my body.

When you eat whole natto you get a dose of beneficial bacteria. The Germans once used the same bacteria to treat dysentery.

It's pretty cheap but it tastes like slimy old socks.
 
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Old thread but very interesting! One of my new experiments is to try nattokinase to see whether this will assist in clearing up post vaccine symptoms, which currently is slightly more fatigue, muscles and tissues stiffer especially in the neck and upper back and occipital lymph nodes fairly swollen. Most of these symptoms I've not had for 3 or 4 months.

I found the writeup in the first post very interesting! Does anyone know if a low ESR is definitely corroborative of coagulation? As certainly when I first got sick my ESR was 2 and Siberian ginseng is a known blood thinner and I never really understood why it had such a dramatic effect on my symptoms (at the time). I've deduced all the reasons one of which is potential anti-coagulation.

Also does anyone know the safe dose of this to take per day? Is it safe to take 3 2000 FU capsules per day? Not forever but I might do it in the short term to see if it effects the post flu vaccine symptoms...touch wood I think they might be on the way out....my symptoms certainly went south over teh last 4 days but I think I am rebounding. As many of you might know I've gone from 60 to 80% functioning which is honestly amazing and most of my symptoms have gone, I only have brain fog and dizziness left. I am not in remission, 80% just means I can work full time without falling asleep, I can go for walks every second day up to 40 minutes a pop. And do chores without payback + no PEM unless I go over the 40 minute walking time.

Any info much appreciated about the nattokinase.
 

Shanti1

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Does anyone know if a low ESR is definitely corroborative of coagulation?
Interesting topic!
For hypercoagulability related to increased fibrinogen, antiphospholipid syndrome, and platelet activation, ESR would be increased. Same with thrombosis:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25220366/
https://www.medicine.mcgill.ca/physio/vlab/bloodlab/ESR.htm
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17279322/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16201006/

Interestingly, in Long-COVID, ESR also tends to be elevated:
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmed.2021.714426/full

Contrast this to ME/CFS, and we see a low ESR
The authors of this paper believe the low ESR in ME/CFS has to do with the low RBC deformability (ability to bend and pass through small capillaries): https://ashpublications.org/blood/article/132/Supplement 1/4874/262252/Erythrocyte-Deformability-As-a-Potential-Biomarker
Interestingly, blood hyperviscosity syndromes of all types result in a low ESR. Low RBC deformability is one cause hyperviscosity:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...cosity/link/0c960531ed0dd3724f000000/download (download the free full text)

While I know some pwME have APL antibodies and a hypercoaguable state, I wonder if for many pwME, the issue is more of a hyperviscosity and RBC deformability?
 
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While I know some pwME have APL antibodies and a hypercoaguable state, I wonder if for many pwME, the issue is more of a hyperviscosity and RBC deformability?
personally doing a Proteolytic Enzyme Experiment. I"ve used Dr. Wongs, using serrapeptase at the moment because its here.

I think all of the above is possible and I believe these types of enzymes CAN help if I can just hang in there and actually do it for long enough time.

However, I have no readings to compare. (well, I have not measured chloresterol, for instance, in quite. while).

so the blood is not flowing- is a key part of this illness. We can debate where or what or how.

I notice the biggest effects with these enzymes - they help my lungs.

But to help arteries, I need to hang in there.
 
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I started nattokinase last week, but I am not sure it's strong enough. I think serrapeptase is better according to Buhner's blog.

Have not noticed massive differences with natto but it definitely did do something the first few times I took it and I think probably continues to do so. Slight improvement in alertness if anything, but I still have this cold so I can't be certain what the effects are.