How to lower norepinephrine

[Lotus97]

One other thing about questioning other people's theories in regards to clinical data/working with patients. While I have no doubt that Dr. Yasko has worked with countless individuals, Rich was also involved in a methylation study with Dr. Nathan's CFS/ME patients where they tested everyone's SNPs and also ran everyone's methylation pathyways panel at 0 months, 3 months, and 6 months.
http://www.mecfs-vic.org.au/sites/w...Article-2009VanKonynenburg-TrtMethylStudy.pdf
I'm sure Rich has worked with doctors and individuals since the study. While it's true that Yasko probably worked with more people than Rich, Rich did work specifically with people with CFS/ME and he concluded that SNP testing wasn't always an accurate predictor of how a person would respond to methylation. This is from August 2012:
(I think this was before 23andme lowered their price to $99. Maybe he would have the same answer, but the methylation pathways panel costs $299 which is why I mention it)

My approach in recent years has been to suggest the simplified protocol for everyone, regardless of SNPs, and then try to deal with whatever issues arise. Many people do not have the finances to afford the nutrigenomic panel, and prefer just to try the treatment. Sometimes this pays off. Other times, more work is needed.

If people have the resources to run one test, I prefer the Health Diagnostics methylation pathways panel.

When I see the results of the Health Diagnostics methylation pathways panel on someone who has also run the nutrigenomic panel, the results in the biochemistry don't always match what one might expect on the basis of the SNPs. I prefer to go with the actual biochemistry. The SNPs are helpful for showing tendencies, but they aren't always very predictive.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[greenshots]

You're putting too much time and thought into defending yourself. I didn't make that comment based on your opinions. We all need to be a little more open to sharing and less defensive or were not gonna get anywhere.

Now this comment is directed to your statement. I liked and respected Rich very much and he and I discussed several different things because my doc introduced us (via email). I'm not able to share alotta what we discussed but his study was very small (I believe less than 100 but not sure) and he mentioned several times that they never tested for things like ammonia or sulfur when treatment was added (like with the cbs) and other factors and he also said that there were too many variables to pin everything on methylation. You have toxins, infection, stress, and all the stuff we've all researched to death. I don't think I have ever implied methylation was the only thing cooking but I do think it is a major factor in the CFS game. Where Yasko's camp frustrates me to death, she also does have thousands of patients to base this information and then you've got offshoots like Mullan, Usman, Rich, Dr.Nathan, Dr. ben, my doc, and the list goes on. So I do think there is compelling data available. To me, the fact that some are really stuck on only scientific claims vs. clincal outcomes means they're limiting their potential. It really doesn't bother me though since everyone is entitled to their own opinion and their own path. I just feel lucky in that regard. Either way I think were all going to have to accept that many sides have value, not just the published studies (funded by whatever company can afford it).

One other thing about questioning other people's theories in regards to clinical data/working with patients. While I have no doubt that Dr. Yasko has worked with countless individuals, Rich was also involved in a methylation study with Dr. Nathan's CFS/ME patients where they tested everyone's SNPs and also ran everyone's methylation pathyways panel at 0 months, 3 months, and 6 months.
http://www.mecfs-vic.org.au/sites/w...Article-2009VanKonynenburg-TrtMethylStudy.pdf
I'm sure Rich has worked with doctors and individuals since the study. While it's true that Yasko probably worked with more people than Rich, Rich did work specifically with people with CFS/ME and he concluded that SNP testing wasn't always an accurate predictor of how a person would respond to methylation. This is from August 2012:
(I think this was before 23andme lowered their price to $99. Maybe he would have the same answer, but the methylation pathways panel costs $299 which is why I mention it)

 

[greenshots]

Look at Gestalts stuff on nervous system. People who are sympathetic dominant tend to have a fight or flight response naturally and then supplements, methylation defects, and toxins will sorta tweak you more in that direction. He had a good methylation posting of his defects and treatments and the nervous system part was just one piece of the puzzle. Since I happen to be a SNS person, as opposed to a mixed or parasympathetic, I know that higher doses of Magnesium and some potassium are needed to roll me back. In fact, now that I think about it, ever since I started all of the supplements for SNS dominance I'm much more chilled out then I used to be and I'm not nearly as compulsive. My emails and posts are usually shorter and more concise then the endless stuff I used to write and things like staying up half the night researching and making diagrams and tables is all gone. Funny now that I think about it. I also don't have anxiety, insomnia, or endless brain chatter. Come to think of it, its pretty nice.

I also question Rich and dbkita's theories too, but since I don't understand this stuff that well I think I need to be even more skeptical. I wish I knew what was causing my flight-or-fight response. Maybe it is partially CBS. Maybe it is POTS/OI. Maybe it is norepinephrine. Even if it's at least partially caused by norepinephrine I still don't know what's causing it.

If CBS is partially to blame then that requires me making both dietary and supplemental changes. I don't like changing my supplements if I've already purchased them because it's a waste of money (unless they truly are making a huge negative impact on my health). So if there's some doubt as to whether or not the theory about CBS causing fight or flight is 100% accurate or not I would like to know because it affects a lot of my actions. There's all sorts of protocols and/or rules and everyone seems to have different ones. Gluten, dairy, salicylates, latex (in foods), omega 3/omega 6 balance, magnesium stearate, candida, Paleo. There's only so many "rules" I'm able to follow at once. Maybe the CBS theory is valid, but the CBS protocol is just one more set of rules that I must follow.

 

[Dreambirdie]

greenshots Speaking of insomnia... I have been dealing with an ongoing bout of it. What to do? is the question. I take tryptophan (which used to help a lot but is less helpful lately), magnesium and some chinese herbs from my TCM guy. I tried melatonin, but it seems to make me worse. I am waking up constantly and feel like hell from it. Was taking 500 mcg of methyl B12 each day, but now I stopped it. ANY IDEAS?

 

[Valentijn]

greenshots Speaking of insomnia... I have been dealing with an ongoing bout of it. What to do? is the question. I take tryptophan (which used to help a lot but is less helpful lately), magnesium and some chinese herbs from my TCM guy. I tried melatonin, but it seems to make me worse. I am waking up constantly and feel like hell from it. Was taking 500 mcg of methyl B12 each day, but now I stopped it. ANY IDEAS?

With your slow breakdown of serotonin, dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine due to messed up COMT and MAO, combined with normal production of dopamine according to VDR, you may have plenty of methyl groups left floating around. So supplementing methyl-forms of vitamins might be unnecessary and even unpleasant. If you still have B12 issues you need to deal with (MTRR says you have some), the hydroxyB12 form is probably safer - though hard to find in the US. And tryptophan is a precursor to serotonin, so again might be hurting more than it's helping. SSRI's - and St John's Wort - also might be a problem.

MTHFR says you might have some problems with methylfolate production. Supplementing a normal (not mega-) dose for that might help, though watch out for any bad reaction you might have to the methyl groups.

There are two ways for serotonin to be processed - one is via MAO breaking it down, and the other is to turn serotonin into melatonin. Because the MAO pathway is not functioning properly, there's probably too much going down the melatonin pathway instead. So melatonin is probably the last thing you need

The AHCY indicates you probably have trouble processing SAMe.

CBS is an upregulation, and might mean you're getting too many byproducts of homocysteine break down at once, and having trouble detoxing them.

 

[greenshots]

I agree with the above, with VDR Taq -/- and only a partiaal COMT +/- your more like a COMT +\+ so methyl donors like melatonin would be a problem.

If your more of a sympathetic nervous system person, many of the Yasko supplements would tweak your nervous system even higher so my doc put me on 60-70% vegetarian diet/30% protein with some meats, eggs, and alpha 2 dairy along with mag at 3x the dose of potassium (600mg mag & 200-300mg potassium at night), biotin, vit c, beta carotene (I juice it), flax seed oil without the linolinic acid (sp?) since that version has phytoestrogens and the plain flax doesn't, limited hydroxy b12, which I haven't had trouble finding on HHI at all, and REALLY limited stimulating supps like zinc, vit e, selenium, calcium, and choline. i also use what she refers to as micro dosing for methyls and I do well. The SNS based supplements and diet make me MUCH less acidic and calms my nervous system alott! But each person is different so it pays to watch how SNS or PNS you are. When I didn't know better, I'd take the Yasko combo supps with all their NADH, b-12, CO q 10, vit E, zinc, SAMe,etc and I would be WAY overstimulated!

 

[Dreambirdie]

Valentijn
I actually can't get to sleep without tryptophan at this point. The melatonin (which I didn't know was a methyl donor) is not helping at all.

Methylfolate is out of the question for now. I do very poorly with it. But probably would be better to take the HB12 rather than MB12, so I can try that at about 250-500 mcg.

greenshots
I am already eating a modified paleo diet, which sounds like what you're describing--mostly vegies, with meat, eggs, some nuts, minimal fruit, but no dairy.

I think I am a sympathetic nervous system type, with a very sensitive hyper nervous system. The mag/K ratio sounds good! I know I need biotin---my fingernails are always splitiing and breaking. I do horribly with zinc, selenium and molybdenum. Also did poorly with TMG--very overstimulating. Take no Vit E

By beta carotene--do you mean juicing carrots?
And where do you get flax oil without linoleic acid?
By microdosing--what exactly do you mean? how much?

AND one more thing.. how much of the lithium did you take? I have the Lithium Arginate.

 

[Valentijn]

Valentijn
I actually can't get to sleep without tryptophan at this point. The melatonin (which I didn't know was a methyl donor) is not helping at all.

Methylfolate is out of the question for now. I do very poorly with it. But probably would be better to take the HB12 rather than MB12, so I can try that at about 250-500 mcg.

Melatonin isn't a methyl donor. If it's bad for you, it's probably because you can't break down serotonin properly using MAO, so it has to turn into melatonin. So your melatonin may be too high to start with, and adding more may just make things worse.

But it sounds like both high serotonin and abnormally low serotonin can interfere with sleep. The only other major thing tryptophan does is form B3, which can increase histamine levels, which would be making you more awake if anything So maybe serotonin is somehow staying low despite the MAO problem - upregulated conversion to methionine maybe? And/or producing serotonin slowly enough that even the MAO problem isn't enough to keep enough serotonin around?

Fascinating stuff Have you ever had serotonin tested?

 

[Dreambirdie]

Fascinating stuff Have you ever had serotonin tested?

No I haven't. I hear that most of those tests are unreliable and don't want to waste my money.

As I recall, Angela once said that MAO created a DOWN regulation of serotonin. I feel I need more not less.

 

[Valentijn]

As I recall, Angela once said that MAO created a DOWN regulation of serotonin. I feel I need more not less.

Actually it's a downregulation in breaking down serotonin (and norepinephrine, epinephrine, and dopamine), not in creating it. But it sounds like when serotonin gets high enough, the ability to create more can be shut off and result in plummeting levels.

 

[greenshots]

Yasko specifically lists melatonin as a methyl donor so thats why I mentioned that. I'm not sure if its a conditional methyl donor like PS or not but its on her list. As far as I knew there had been some second guessing on the MAO A in that it might be an upregulation, more like a CBS and this is a possibility for all the serotonin loss. Although that was at her 2011 conference and may have been updated again since then. But whether it acts as a COMT ++ and leads to serotonin fluctuations and then down regulates, or acts like a CBS, the net effect seems to be a need for serotonin. Although my doc thought this was more related to gut problems as well as nervous system type and that SNS dominants....or those with alotta gut bugs.....might eat up more tryptophan, getting lower serotonin levels. Hard to know for sure, really.

The flax seed oil is in the fridge section at the natural health store and micro dosing is using the lowest dose that works for you and what you can tolerate. Like I use a whole cap of B complex and CBS/NOS caps but only use a sprinkle of some other stuff. Like you, I don't do well on zinc but require some so I use the drops in teensy doses and do just fine. I always used low doses of lithium orotate at 1/4 of the cap on Yasko's site. Also, you can take beta carotene caps but I have a juicer (which saved me through detox!!!) so I have at least one a day. When I detoxed I was drinking celery, carrot, romaine, and some apple and it made a huge difference. I'm not sure about the paleo diet but for most SNS people, diets high in veggies, fruits and low glycemic carbs like quinoa and oats and small portions of meat seem to be good.

 

[greenshots]

We do spinals all the time in the ICU and most of the time, there isn't a problem aside from a "spinal headache" which I've had after having a tap. But I agree with you, Dbkita, I would never choose to do one unless it was life or death.

Because my brother had one for another reason and there was a complication and he developed viral meningitis and almost died from it (at which point they had to do btw additional spinal taps).

 

[Valentijn]

Yasko specifically lists melatonin as a methyl donor so thats why I mentioned that. I'm not sure if its a conditional methyl donor like PS or not but its on her list.

I'm rather confused on this point too. Some representations show melatonin with no methyl groups, and some show it with two.

 

[ttt]

Angela, you mentioned choline as a stimulating supp. I was taking PS/PC/PE, then I switched to a sunflower PS and sunflower lecithin, then I stopped the sunflower lecithin altogether, cause I was afraid it may be contributing to my extreme overstimulation. But I wasn't sure if that's a good move, cause supposedly phosphatidyl choline is necessary for the shortcut. So it's OK without it? What about PS? Is that stimulating?

You also mentioned that you limited some of the Yasko combo supps that had NADH, b-12, CO q 10, vit E, zinc, SAMe. I'm taking some of that stuff. I wonder if I should stop. How much total B12 do you get in a day, including all supplement sources? I wish I had some clue what was making me so m-m-m-manic and absolutely unable to sleep. I've started a relationship with Valium, which is, IMO, the devil, and even that is not enough to make me sleep.

 

[greenshots]

I take very little b12 now, maybe 800mcg day and I've added potassium and magneisum to sleep at night since this helps slow down the flight and fight system. As far as methyls go, I take sprinkles and really diluted drops instead of regular doses because I get WAY too amped up on them. With all my BHMT defects, i probably need much more support there but I had a seizure a few years ago when I ended up as a patient in the ICU so was told to limit choline substantially. It can reduce your seizure threshold. I read alott about the BHMT and SHMT because I was pretty convinced my son had them. I went thru several inborn error textbooks at my hospital library and this was one of the new frontiers.

Anyhow, Ps is on the methyl donor list because it has the potential for acting like one and frankly, I can't tolerate much of it. My nor epi goes thru the roof and I'm a mess. I have some basic methylation stuff down in small doses and have done well. After years of study with my kids and then me, I think alotta this has to do with how were wired up, our defects, guts, and whatever other great toxins we've had, so it may be different for you. But it sounds like your more SNS like me.

Angela, you mentioned choline as a stimulating supp. I was taking PS/PC/PE, then I switched to a sunflower PS and sunflower lecithin, then I stopped the sunflower lecithin altogether, cause I was afraid it may be contributing to my extreme overstimulation. But I wasn't sure if that's a good move, cause supposedly phosphatidyl choline is necessary for the shortcut. So it's OK without it? What about PS? Is that stimulating?

You also mentioned that you limited some of the Yasko combo supps that had NADH, b-12, CO q 10, vit E, zinc, SAMe. I'm taking some of that stuff. I wonder if I should stop. How much total B12 do you get in a day, including all supplement sources? I wish I had some clue what was making me so m-m-m-manic and absolutely unable to sleep. I've started a relationship with Valium, which is, IMO, the devil, and even that is not enough to make me sleep.

 

[ttt]

Thanx, Angela. Yeah, I'm about as SNS as it's possible to be. So it sounds like maybe PS and choline, although they're touted as being so important for the shortcut in the Yasko protocol, aren't necessarily good for people with SNS issues. I can't wait to see my new doc. I hope she will help me figure out what's amping me up and what I can eliminate so I can sleep.

 

[triffid113]

Angela, you mentioned choline as a stimulating supp. I was taking PS/PC/PE, then I switched to a sunflower PS and sunflower lecithin, then I stopped the sunflower lecithin altogether, cause I was afraid it may be contributing to my extreme overstimulation. But I wasn't sure if that's a good move, cause supposedly phosphatidyl choline is necessary for the shortcut. So it's OK without it? What about PS? Is that stimulating?

You also mentioned that you limited some of the Yasko combo supps that had NADH, b-12, CO q 10, vit E, zinc, SAMe. I'm taking some of that stuff. I wonder if I should stop. How much total B12 do you get in a day, including all supplement sources? I wish I had some clue what was making me so m-m-m-manic and absolutely unable to sleep. I've started a relationship with Valium, which is, IMO, the devil, and even that is not enough to make me sleep.

From what I have observed, most people in this board undersupplement, picking and choosing, such that they do not supply the complete nutrients needed by biochemistry to achieve any results. I would not drop those supplements except for SAMe, which I would never take. That said, the only B12 I get is in my Thorne Basic B 2x/day...if you do not have stomach acid issues, nerve damage, certain infections like lyme disease (which use up your B12), you may not need a lot of mB12, just some. I have 18 mutations but not the MTHFR 677 which many people here have so cannot say what that one may require. Free radicals adversely affect methylation and antioxidants like CoQ10 and vitamin E quench them. Low vitamin D adversely affects methylation. Low zinc and/or low copper affect methylation. Insufficient methyls affects methylation (for those eating low protein diets), but also insufficient means of draining away methylation causes raised homocysteine, a nerve toxin, which also damages blood vessels and the kidneys. On another hread someone here found their adverse reaction to methylation supplements disappeared by adding sufficient P5P to drain methyls. EVen normal people will have elevated homocysteine after meals if they do not ingest sufficient TMG from diet or supplements.

I find that DHEA prevents over exciteability in me. It is known (via making estrogen) protect against glutamate toxicity, which is extreme muscle tension, and also brain effects. I have never had trouble sleeping and I have always taking 400-600 mg magnesium citrate/day. Life Extension cites studies saying low magnesium causes inability to sleep. Anyone eating a high protein diet (>80g/day) is burning up magnesium at an accelerated rate because it requires magnesium to excrete the protein breakdown byproduct, ammonia. If you eat a lot of protein and do not get enough magnesium, your body will steal magnesium from the NMDA receptors which causes glutamate toxicity. (Estrogen protects the magnesium gate on the NMDA receptors from being stolen but idk ow well it works if you eat a tremendously high protein diet -- your body may override the estrogen protection at some point in favor of protecting your tissues from amonia).

I would caution you to not assume it is CBS causing your issues as the study Yasko used showed only a 2% difference between those with CBS mutations and those w/o. Also CBS is regulated by hormones and Yasko studies children...CB problems may not apply at all to adults. I have foud her to be dead wrong about CBS in my case as I am CBS +/+ and +/- and yet have HIGH homocysteine w/o sufficient supplementation (exactly the opposite of what she told me I should have based on my genes). There are independent tests, such as for blood ammonia levels, you can use to further investigate what is going on with you.

 

[triffid113]

I found this thread whilst searchig for threads on potassium. I find on the active methylation protocol that I am getting arrythmias every night when I lie down and never used to get that more than maybe once a year before. I take an unmeasured teaspoon? of potassium gluconate powder but not every day. Whether r not I take it I still have the arrythmia. I think we should pin a potassium topic so othat it stays front and center and newbies cannot miss how important it is as not knowing that this protocol leads to electrlyte issues could be dangerous.

I was wondering if anyone has gotton around potassium issues by adjusting the methylation protocol in some way to make it safer? I just do not feel that following a protocol that requires precise balancing of electrolytes is very stable. I should add that I have had electrolyte problems my whole life and always believed it was caused by low blood sugar, which is proven to use up so much potassium that it would take 6 bananas to replenish. I have indeed had issues with storage/breakdown of glycogen my whole life, getting progressively worse as I got older until only DHEA would fix it. But I find that when I get infections they burn through DHEA and so there is not enough to control my blood sugar (and so I still have low blood sugar issues in spells). It wasn't until this board that I began to see that supplements/supplement-combos could cause electrolyte issues. I have been supplementing B vitains in high dose since infancy. So I dunno the cause of the electrolyte issues in me but I want to stop these issues from occurring. Any suggestions???

Thank you

 

[ttt]

Triffid, how much P5P do you take? The Yasko camp has said to avoid it, but I just don't think that's right. So I've started taking about 40-50mg, and I wonder if I'm taking too much or too little. Here, I'm hearing that a lot of people disagree with Yasko about CBS. I'm CBS+/-, but my ammonia is low and my sulfur is high.

 

[triffid113]

greenshots said: To me, the fact that some are really stuck on only scientific claims vs. clincal outcomes means they're limiting their potential.
----

But Rich did not base his info on studies, nor do I. We look at other tests, not just genetic. And at tests of ourselves, not tests done on children. It's easy to run a homocysteine test and prove that Yasko is dead wrong about CBS in adults, specifically me. She says it upregulates the gene, but that would cause low homocysteine, when what I have untreated is high homocysteine, and the methylation protocol I take, which is chock full of methyls, lowers it to normal. Also proven by tests and symptoms in myself! So IMHO it is Yasko going by theory/studies o genes instead of actual lab data in adults. I have two COMT genes, one +/+ and yet I test low in dopamine which is independent proof that I am not sensitive to the many methyls in my diet. Etc. It is important to look at the genetics to find out what to test via lab work, but never assume. Genetics is FAR from the whol estory. In me it is 100% wrong[/quote][/quote]