how relevant is EMF to ME/CFS?

keenly

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Hm. If all EMR is that bad, then humans and indeed all mammals who live at high altitudes should have gone extinct. The Sun is a thermonuclear EMR blaster, so powerful that it will cook and burn light skin in under an hour, even at Earth's surface. That's from UV of course, but the sun also gives off IR and its neighbor, microwaves. We are shielded from some but not all of that massive output by a miles-thick blanket of air.
The Sun does not give off only specific types of EMR, it produces everything from long-wave radio to X rays. It also makes gamma rays at the core, but those do not make it to the Sun's surface. How a photon of EMR from the Sun or cosmic radiation differs from one made by equipment constructed from materials found in nature is entirely beyond my simple little mind.


The Earth has a natural magnetic field we have evolved to be in contact with, yes?


You can not compare the sun to artificial magnetic fields that cause calcium to flood into the cell. Sunlight is a natural calcium channel blocker.
 

keenly

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The radiated power from all these groundstations and satellites is infinitesimally low compared to the energy coming through the atmosphere from the sun. There's no evidence this could be real. If there was appreciable energy being broadcast by WiFi, cell towers, comm satellites, etc, then this startup would actually have worked.

http://scientists4wiredtech.com/what-are-4g-5g/science/

You were meant to be under the sun, on Earths natural magnetic field, not an artificial one.
 

percyval577

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I don´t think that this is relevant, whereas I think indeed that frequencies are used by the body.
And listen to the frequency of old jupiter´s orbit, how strong, and then venus, which is in the tenth ocatave (xy:512) exactly related to the one of jupiter.
I find this very astonishingly as it has been calculated that jupiter once slowed down by accrediating material and therefore approached towards the sun and then, I think because saturn couldn´t come nearer by because jupiter already messed himself up with the requested material, went outwards again. And then the planet´s orbits are related to each other pretty exactly in harmonious series.
The best effect on me has the frequency of the sun. But all the mess of electronics will not interact here, I think.
 
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but you might also consider checking peer-reviewed sources to verify any claims before you spend thousands of dollars on anti-emf gear or decide on a career of blowing up 5G towers...or drive yourselves sick from fear of nothing.
Do you know that there are already hidden mobile transmitter in cities with most no warning signs like in hydrants? Do you know that you should never stand next to it (says the producer)?
Do you know that technicians are switching of mobile transmitters before they do maintenance?
If you really think that Wi-Fi has no effect to you could do a trip and camp next to this hydrant or the shafts (Bern, Switzerland).

Do you know that german roofer are warned by their insurance to measure HF because there could be a transmitter e. g. on the neighbours house masked as a chimney?

It is the same problem as with ME: people think if that would be a dangerous disease there would be research and people in hospitals and not at home...
People don't know how EMF works, but think it is safe because it is not forbidden.
Like pesticides.
Like vaccines (who knows that they are produced in cells of aborted human fetus?).

The radiated power from all these groundstations and satellites is infinitesimally low compared to the energy coming through the atmosphere from the sun. There's no evidence this could be real. If there was appreciable energy being broadcast by WiFi, cell towers, comm satellites, etc, then this startup would actually have worked.
This is nonsense.
You can't compare sun radiation with man-made low frequency (khz to gighartz) radiation.
We wouldn't be able to transmit data in approx. 0,8-2,7 GHz if the sun would put terawatts of power in this frequency to the ground.
The nature is not using this frequencies. You can measure it if you don't believe me.
Is the nature dumb?

tried various EMF therapies several years ago, grounding using sockets as well as some necklace stuff, didn't do anything for me
This does not shield the EMF.
To protect you from man-made EMF (77 khz to approx. 5 GHz) you need a very fine net (faraday cage).
For example: you can protect yourself from 800 MHz with a approx. 37 cm thick wall.
To protect you from 2 GHz (wafelength 15 cm) you need a net with mesh size of only a few millimeter.
To shield very low frequencies like 50/60 hz you need a metallic sheath around the electricity cable.

I've always been a bit uneasy about the possible effects of near-constant exposure to wireless technology. I wonder if all the physical effects are fully known.
See this for example: http://kompetenzinitiative.net/KIT/...erg-and-Hallstadt-Documentation-2006-2016.pdf
(photos of dying trees due to HF transmitters)

There is even a better alternative to Wi-Fi, it is called Li-Fi by its developer (german researcher): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-Fi

Apple is already experimenting with it: https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...-based-li-fi-wireless-data-for-future-iphones
It offers more than 100 times faster data transmitting (not yet, but soon) than conventional wi-fi due to the much bigger spectrum of light.

Who really cares, should millions of people die every year from EMF? As long as I'm not, I don't care...
 

used_to_race

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http://scientists4wiredtech.com/what-are-4g-5g/science/

You were meant to be under the sun, on Earths natural magnetic field, not an artificial one.
There is no difference between RF emitted by the sun and RF emitted by an antenna with the same frequency content. This is really silly. If we were really inundated with all this harmful RF from "artificial" sources, wouldn't everyone be sick very early in life?
 

used_to_race

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This is nonsense.
You can't compare sun radiation with man-made low frequency (khz to gighartz) radiation.
We wouldn't be able to transmit data in approx. 0,8-2,7 GHz if the sun would put terawatts of power in this frequency to the ground.
The nature is not using this frequencies. You can measure it if you don't believe me.
Is the nature dumb?
No, sorry, you're talking nonsense. The sun emits plenty of radiation at low frequencies as well. You can transmit data in these frequency bands because it is channel coded and above the noise floor (and in the case of GNSS, it's not even above the noise floor). Nobody is putting terawatts of power out except the sun. I literally do measure this stuff for a living, I'm an RF engineer. Of course, in your view it is probably impossible to measure ambient sources of RF because of all the "man-made" sources. It's not just the sun, btw. All the other stars in the universe, the cosmic microwave background, and various other sources of RF exist.
 

Wishful

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@used_to_race , do you have the figures for background microwave power for places away from transmitters? I did try to look for that, but didn't find it. With that figure, people can compare 'what humans evolved with' with a cell tower x distance away.

@percyval577 , frequencies aren't a physical thing that the body can use, they're just a value, measuring cycles per time unit. Some health scammers are misusing the term to sell things, claiming to 'apply healing frequencies' without even mentioning what physical properties the frequency is measuring. Also, the sun doesn't have 'a' frequency, it has whole spectrums of frequencies for various physical properties, such as EM radiation, gravitational variation, sunspot production and movement, etc. Saying that 'the frequency of the sun is good for you' makes no sense.

@wholepartthings , yes, power levels from some transmitters are dangerous at close range, so they need warning signs if there's a reasonable chance of someone remaining close to it for long periods. Power levels are set to be below recognized safe levels at a certain distance, so a tower would be safe at ground level, but not for a technician working on the antenna. Photos of trees dying near powerful transmitters? Sure. In early days, there might not even have been warning signs. Today there's be security fences and warning signs out to the limit where the power level was safe again. It's all a matter of power levels and duration. Putting a mouse in a microwave oven on 'high' wouldn't prove that low level signals are harmful.

@sb4 , they guy makes a claim that AM signals are the only ones that produce the effect, but he didn't identify his sources or explain why it would be so. Both AM and FM will carry similar levels of power in more or less the same bandwidth, so for a given carrier frequency and modulation magnitude, there shouldn't be much difference in effects. My guess is that somewhere in the chain between whoever ran the experiment and the guy who wrote the forum message, someone was lacking in understanding of signal theory and modulation methods.


Whew! Lots of responses in this thread. Is it possibly a controversial topic? :lol:
 

HowToEscape?

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VERY relevant. Non native EMF cause calcium to flood into the cell. You can not get well in an environment with nnemf. 5G is rolling out now. All should be researching it and trying to stop this roll out.
Well then, we are surely communicating by mental telepathy! Because the people who maintain power lines are exposed to millions of time greater EMF than you or me, and thus they all died horrible deaths decades ago. So electric power is only an illusion, we're actually (scratches chin), uhh, blood producing bodies held in captivity by vampires, and this whole conversation is an implanted thought to distract us from humanity's vampire captivity.

OR, the utility maintenance crews are --- --- --- LECTROIDS!
 

sb4

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@sb4 , they guy makes a claim that AM signals are the only ones that produce the effect, but he didn't identify his sources or explain why it would be so. Both AM and FM will carry similar levels of power in more or less the same bandwidth, so for a given carrier frequency and modulation magnitude, there shouldn't be much difference in effects. My guess is that somewhere in the chain between whoever ran the experiment and the guy who wrote the forum message, someone was lacking in understanding of signal theory and modulation methods.
The post linked contains 8 sources in small font at the end. It could be easy to miss though and I understand if you don't have the time to go through them. I started going through them half a year ago and gave up soon after.

Also you say that the body cannot use frequencies. I may have this wrong but I thought you could express wavelengths of the electromagnetic spectrum in frequencies. Like this:

If so then the body does use frequencies. It uses UV to make vitamin D and I suspect it does a whole lot more, uses blue light to create cortisol and destroy melatonin, red light to "activate" cytochrome C oxidase, etc.
 

keenly

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Well then, we are surely communicating by mental telepathy! Because the people who maintain power lines are exposed to millions of time greater EMF than you or me, and thus they all died horrible deaths decades ago. So electric power is only an illusion, we're actually (scratches chin), uhh, blood producing bodies held in captivity by vampires, and this whole conversation is an implanted thought to distract us from humanity's vampire captivity.

OR, the utility maintenance crews are --- --- --- LECTROIDS!
?
There is no difference between RF emitted by the sun and RF emitted by an antenna with the same frequency content. This is really silly. If we were really inundated with all this harmful RF from "artificial" sources, wouldn't everyone be sick very early in life?
The sun does not effect volted gated calcium ions, man made EMF does. Your body needs sunlight.
 

Wishful

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@sb4 , your question shows how some people fail to make the connection between 'frequencies' and 'frequencies of a specific energy'. You show the picture of 'frequencies of electromagnetic energy' and then say that the body just 'uses frequencies'. No, the body uses EM energy at certain frequencies. Health scammers play on that lack of distinction by perhaps mentioning that the body uses frequencies (not mentioning that they are for EM energy) and then selling devices that resonate with physical energy (bells, etc). A bone might have an acoustic energy resonance at a specific frequency, but that doesn't have anything to do with resonance at EM frequencies. I've seen all too many health scams for 'applying healing frequencies' that don't mention what form of energy the frequency applies to. Scams tend to work on ignorance, so common targets are things that sound mysterious to most people: frequencies, electricity, magnetism, crystals, etc.

If a health claim is made about 'frequencies', without clearly stating what form of energy it applies to, something is wrong.
 

Wishful

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I did check through some papers on EM effects on VGCCs. I didn't dig deep enough to judge the quality of the studies that show a causal link but I did notice that I couldn't find any recent (post 1980's) studies confirming the findings, which seems a bit suspicious. I did find other papers that say that the findings are 'widely accepted' and others that claim that the link is still controversial (not conclusively proven). Also, the abstract for the original paper by Walleczek says that his findings were for extremely low frequencies (<300 Hz), not microwaves.

I did get a bit annoyed at the papers talking about 'dirty electricity', meaning pulsed modulation. The EM isn't 'dirty', it's just wide-spectrum, meaning that there's power radiated at a large number of frequencies. It's mathematically--and physically--the same as having a large number of transmitters radiating at specific frequencies. The effects at a specific frequency are identical. To me the use of the term 'dirty electricity' is playing on ignorance of electromagnetics to make it sound like something mysterious and dangerous, and thus is anti-scientific.
 

sb4

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@Wishful I am not so sure I understand what is wrong. Lets take the following:
My cytochrome c oxidase absorbs electromagnetic energy at the frequency of 4.5423e+14 (660nm). So the problem was I didn't declare the frequency was electromagnetic?

Yeah as far as I understand it, a big theoretical block in seeing nnEMFs as potential hazards has been that non ionizing, non thermal EMF cannot directly effect DNA and therefore can't cause cancer. This relies on 2 things, 1 that cancer is caused by DNA mutations and not the other way around, and 2, that this EMF isn't causing indirect damage to DNA. If you have excess calcium influx then you generate more nitric oxide and this leads to peroxynitrite which can damage the cell and even the DNA.
 

percyval577

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@Wishful Yes, the sun emitts very propably a lot of frequencies. But the NASA had the idea to take "recordings" out of the plasma (ions and electrons) surrounding the planets or the sun. This can be changed into frequencies of the air on earth, so you can listen to it. It turns out that there is one basic frequency arround the sun (in the plasma). The recording though needed to get speeded up 42.000 times (as said on youtube, i didn´t ckeck the original source) to make it accessable for our ears. It´s about a [f] on the piano (i couldn´t find the frequency in hz, for changing it into a pitch).
For further instance, all the plasma arround the venus has a frequency of 221.23 hz, that makes a tone a bit hight than an A on the standart-piano, 9.65 cent to be exact. Jupiter sounds 13.25 cent lower than f#. The original hz can be found on youtube, and jupiter is especially great fun! The relationship between both planets is almost exactly 617:512 (=322.95 cent versus empirical 322.90 cent), venus being a minor third to the basic tone jupiter.
From Ben Garside I learned, those calcium waves occure around one of the organelles, ER or mitochondria, I have forgotten. The first channel opens, then the second, then the third ..., ..., then again the first one. They can dubble up or whatever, so it´s a frequency of conducting. My personal guess would be furthermore that consiousness in its root is frequency, strange, as one immediatly wants to ask, frequency of what?. In the brain it would be the dense harmony of nerve firing.
To my understanding frequency in generell means stabilisation (even working with a rhythm means good work, doesn´t it?). But the last truth might even be that it is not "only" a stabilisation of things, but a first entity (this contradict though with our first way of thinking like "This is oscilating.")

Practically speaking, I don´t know which frequencies of what for things can interact.
But I had once a mobile, and using it for more than about 20 minutes caused earpain. On the other hand, knowing also countriesides I am not afraid of a mess of waves. I also don´t believe in healing frequencies, especially not in its miracles. But I think indeed that the frequency of earth´s atmosphere or even the frequency of jupiter´s plasma might have some interesting little effect.
 
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percyval577

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And listen to the frequency of old jupiter´s orbit
1. This I got wrong. The recorded plasma-frequencies are not those of the orbit. I think it´s not known by what for a force they are caused and why they/some of them are related to each other.

2. The tv and radio EMF´s are polarizated (ie when they interact with a radio or are measured they oscilate always in one direction) whereas the waves coming from the sun or out of the inner earth are not polarizated (when ineracting eg measured they change randomly the direction of oscilating). I would guess that also the EMF frequencies of mobile telefones are polarizated, so the influence on other things would occure to be very limited in comparison to natural waves like the sun´s or earth´s electro magnetic fields.

3. I would think though that the EMF´s from electricity support coming out of the sockets (about 50 hz) is not polarizated, and I remember that I was on one day sensitive this electricity. Shall I make for the desert? Maybe it´s helpful?

4. There is this 126 hz freqency of the sun often mentiond which is indeed very nice. It´s something about a b on the piano. I hardly can imagine why inside all that mess of frequencies coming from the sun one would stick out as their main one. However, I noticed that it would be a partial tone of jupiters plasma frequency.

My personal guess would be furthermore that consiousness in its root is frequency
5. This is of course speculation. Maybe it´s better to say it would be energy, and energy itself is non-empirical as conciousness itself is. You can only look at the different manifestiations of energy, as well as you will never find a conciosness somewhere inside the brain. So, it mght be better to be considered unimportant.

6. On youtube there are also frequencies of atoms listenable. I don´t know what that does mean as the electrons are randomly here and there when measured (and as far as I have understood, this goes with the Bell´s unequation theorem which has been proven to be true if I am remembering right). However, these frequencies do not sound appealing, unlike all these ones of the planets.
 
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Wishful

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Yes. @sb4 , what bothers me is people talking about 'frequencies' having effects, disregarding the form of energy involved. It's the energy that has an effect, and in many cases, the magnitude of the effect does depend on the frequency, but sometimes the dependence of frequency is broad (maybe it works at .1 to 10x the centre frequency) and sometimes narrow (shattering a wineglass with sound might might require the energy to be at the centre frequency +/- .00001x the resonant frequency). Also, if some effect depends on EM energy at a certain frequency, acoustic or gravitational energy at the same frequency will probably be completely ignored.

As for cytochrome C being affected by red light, that's a topic I haven't looked into. While it may be a measurable effect in a laboratory setup, I'm not sure whether it has a significant effect inside the body, despite claims for red light healing products.
 

Wishful

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@percyval577 , yes the sun--and other planets with magnetic fields--emits EM radiation from plasma waves. They're very low frequency. I expect that the levels received at ground level here are also of much, much lower magnitude than earth-generated EM radiation of the same frequencies. They have virtually no effect on humans on earth, so don't fall for any health claims for 'frequencies of the planets'. As for your earlier post regarding orbital frequencies, that's mechanical position, which also has no effects on life on earth (aside from affecting our orbit very slightly). So no, the orbital frequency of planets, the frequencies of their plasma waves, and other such phenomena might be impressive in terms of power, but there's no reason why they should affect life on earth.

BTW, if you speed up a recording of something 42x, you are multiplying its frequency 42x, so it's no longer at the frequency of the source.

Frequency of calcium channel opening/closing is a physical phenomenon. There's no reason for it to respond to various forms of energy (EM, acoustical, etc) regardless of them being at the same frequency.

Frequency does not mean stabilization. It's simply a measure of the periodicity of something. Rhythm is a repeated pattern, which means that the repetitions would have a frequency, but that's a measurement of the rhythm, not a cause of it.

As far as I understand the latest research, consciousness is the firing of a complex network of neurons. Some of them might be periodic, but that's not a necessary condition.

Polarization of EM energy isn't a significant effect as far as human absorption of the energy. We aren't polarized. A typical TV antenna is horizontally polarized, so it received EM energy at the resonant frequency more effectively than it would vertically polarized energy. Your body will absorb EM energy pretty much independent of polarization, so there's no difference between natural and artificial sources. Polarization of the 50 or 60 Hz EM field is really not an issue.

Atoms do have resonant frequencies. That is also not of any concern for health or wellbeing.
 

Wishful

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"CONCLUSION: According to our findings, eye cells recognize EMF as a stress factor, and in response, activate caspase-3 and p38MAPK gene expressions. These results confirm that RF-EMF can cause cellular damage in rat ocular cells (Tab. 2, Fig. 3, Ref. 37)."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed...RffCn4LVEhFvJnDQSqCVvSiUEnjFNMoZ6XDOsmxbuG_24
It would be nice if they compared "an electric field 6.8 ± 0.1 V/m and 0.06 W/kg specific absorption rate (SAR) for 2 hours per day" with something commonly understood, such as 'a cell phone transmitting x distance away'. I don't know if their experimental power levels were very high or very low.