• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of and finding treatments for complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia (FM), long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

How likely is high vit. C a mast cell degranulator?

sillysocks84

Senior Member
Messages
445
http://meandmymastcells.com/category/nutrition/vitamins/

Well, i have been taking high doses of vitamin c for my mast cell problems because I know it is a mast cell stabilizer. Apparently in high amounts it becomes the opposite. Which may explain why my palms itch after taking high doses. This article says if you take 1g (1,000mg) split it throughout the day not all at once.

*edited * I don't believe it's the vitamin c making my hands itch, but if it is it may be an additive.
 
Last edited:

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@sillysocks84 am not sure what to think about this b/c Vit C is supposed to be a mast cell stabilizer and there is 700 mg (approx) in the Quercetin that I take (2x a day in divided doses) and it seems to work well for me. It is pure Vit C without the additives in many other Vit C's. My MCAS doc wants me to keep taking it. Maybe each person reacts differently to Vit C?
 

sillysocks84

Senior Member
Messages
445
@sillysocks84 am not sure what to think about this b/c Vit C is supposed to be a mast cell stabilizer and there is 700 mg (approx) in the Quercetin that I take (2x a day in divided doses) and it seems to work well for me. It is pure Vit C without the additives in many other Vit C's. My MCAS doc wants me to keep taking it. Maybe each person reacts differently to Vit C?
That could be too! That we all react differently. I had never heard this before myself. So maybe someone can debunk this or explain it. But on the other hand I'm wondering why my hands itch when I take high c doses. I usually take 2,500 mg at a time or more. Maybe every body has it's own optimal level??
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
Maybe it is just too high a dose? My total dose for the day is around 1420 mg (would have to check the Quercetin bottle but this is approx it.) I usually divide things into divided doses so nothing too high of an amount at once.
 

Ema

Senior Member
Messages
4,729
Location
Midwest USA
She doesn't provide a reference and also says that the concentrations of vitamin C to achieve mast cell degranulation are not achievable using standard supplements.

The only reference I can find is that when Vit C is used to kill mast cell tumor cells, it can cause a massive release of histamine as those cells are destroyed. But this does not happen to normal, non cancerous cells.

I'd take that blog with a grain of salt...
 

sillysocks84

Senior Member
Messages
445
She doesn't provide a reference and also says that the concentrations of vitamin C to achieve mast cell degranulation are not achievable using standard supplements.

The only reference I can find is that when Vit C is used to kill mast cell tumor cells, it can cause a massive release of histamine as those cells are destroyed. But this does not happen to normal, non cancerous cells.

I'd take that blog with a grain of salt...
Thank you @Ema I won't read anything elserious by her
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,934
Location
Albuquerque
Maybe each person reacts differently to Vit C?
Vitamin C has different biochemical actions at different dose levels. I don't know anything about dosing for possible help with MCAS, but for glutathione, here is a quick break down. Doses up to about 3000 mg will use glutathione to metabolize the C, doses in the mid-range have a neutral effect on glutathione, and at high (bowel tolerance) doses, the C is used to metabolize the glutathione. Hope I got that right! :)

That is a synopsis from Dr. Rich Van Konynenburg who had references for it. So, in short, low doses of C may, to a mild extent, reduce glutathione levels, whereas high doses may, to a mild extent, increase them. If you can relate glutathione to MCAS, you might tease something out of that.
 

sillysocks84

Senior Member
Messages
445
Currently, I am of the opinion that ME/CFS is just some undiagnosed Mast Cell Activation Disorder. Given that glutathione depletion happens in ME/CFS, I wanted to come up with a possible explanation within the context of mast cell activation disorders. I believe I have found one such explanation although I am not entirely sure it is the only one or even the right one.

Upon activation, mast cells may potentially release hundreds of mediators. One of these mediators is Leukotriene C4. Leukotriene C4 is produced de novo by mast cells upon activation and for its synthesis both leukotriene A4 and glutathione are required. If mast cells are being constantly activated, for whatever reason, there is a decent possibility that glutathione might get depleted in the process.

Once glutathione gets depleted, increased levels of reactive oxigen species (RIS) are generally observed. What is interesting is that ROS are also known activators of mast cells, resulting in what richvank liked to call a vicious circle.

Within the context of mast cell activation disorders, this simple glutathione depletion process may thus explain why ME/CFS sufferers have increased levels of ROS.

@nanonug also said gluthathione was helping him at one point.

Link:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/a-new-glutathione-depletion-hypothesis.20301/

So maybe we do need higher doses to metabolize the gluthathione better. Thanks for that information @Sushi
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
Doses up to about 3000 mg will use glutathione to metabolize the C

@Sushi I am not sure if I am interpreting this correctly but do you mean that if I am taking less than 3000 mg of Vit C per day (I take approx 1500 mg per day) that I am using up needed glutathione to metabolize the C and this could be a bad thing overall?


@sillysocks84 I need to re-read some of nanonug's posts and I don't think he is on PR anymore. I am trying glutathione by nebulizer next week and really hoping this will help me to lower the inflammation in my lungs and body. It is risky but am trying at hospital and for me at this point, it is worth the risk!
 

sillysocks84

Senior Member
Messages
445
@sillysocks84 I need to re-read some of nanonug's posts and I don't think he is on PR anymore. I am trying glutathione by nebulizer next week and really hoping this will help me to lower the inflammation in my lungs and body. It is risky but am trying at hospital and for me at this point, it is worth the risk!

I noticed he wasn't here anymore either :-(. I wanted to ask him about this :
One of the things that became quite apparent a long time ago for CFS patients like myself was that intravenous glutathione helped a great deal.

But...I think it sounds like your doctor is putting you on the right track. It seems like maybe you needed more of glutathione. Higher c doses from what I understand, help you metabolize the gluthathione. Yours seem midrange so have a neutral effect most likely.
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,934
Location
Albuquerque
@Sushi I am not sure if I am interpreting this correctly but do you mean that if I am taking less than 3000 mg of Vit C per day (I take approx 1500 mg per day) that I am using up needed glutathione to metabolize the C and this could be a bad thing overall?
Well, you induced to look up my sources and check my memory--I was too busy to do that before. Turns out I had it slightly wrong. The following is a conversation between Rich and a member of an immune support forum:

Question to Rich: What is your current view about vitamin C in CFS? I know two years
ago you wrote that either up to 1 gr/daily or high-body-saturating
doses would be appropriated for not depleting GSH?? I wonder which is
your current view at the moment regarding vitamin C for CFS….

Rich replied: I still hold that view. The idea is that the lower dosages supply
antioxidant support without placing too large a demand on glutathione,
which is depleted in many cases of CFS, mid-range dosages place a
demand on glutathione for recycling vitamin C (according to Dr.
Cheney, and I think he's right), and bowel tolerance dosages are able
to raise the vitamin C concentrations sufficiently that vitamin C
recycles glutathione, rather than glutathione recycling vitamin C, as
is normal.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
I noticed he wasn't here anymore either :-(. I wanted to ask him about this :

But...I think it sounds like your doctor is putting you on the right track. It seems like maybe you needed more of glutathione. Higher c doses from what I understand, help you metabolize the gluthathione. Yours seem midrange so have a neutral effect most likely.

I know, I would like to ask him, too! Maybe he is not around b/c he is well now?!! I cannot do stuff in IV form so will be nebulizing glutathione. If I tolerate it, I can easily increase the Vit C and will research this more.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
Well, you induced to look up my sources and check my memory--I was too busy to do that before. Turns out I had it slightly wrong. The following is a conversation between Rich and a member of an immune support forum:

@Sushi, now am not sure if I understand it after all! Is Rich saying that the lower doses are actually better b/c they don't put a high demand on using your glutathione?
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,934
Location
Albuquerque
@Sushi, now am not sure if I understand it after all! Is Rich saying that the lower doses are actually better b/c they don't put a high demand on using your glutathione?
What I understand from this (which could be wrong!) is that mid-range doses could deplete glutathione but that low would not effect glutathione levels and high might actually increase glutathione.