How does Enterovirus fit w GWI success w Ribavirin, andrographolide

[sometexan84]

Someone asked me this question, and my response is below. But I want to ask @Hip about this too because I think you prob have more experience researching GWI.

Is any of the below info wrong, or off, or have there been more recent updates that negate some of what I said?

They never found enterovirus right? Just something else that was LIKE it?

Also, what are your overall thoughts? I think others will be interested in this topic as well as your opinion. Also, I know that you know more about the polio virus vaccine and its involvement w CFS more than anyone alive (which I think is a key factor involved w GWI)

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"I'm wondering, how do you think enterovirus theory fits with Klimas's mouse model GWI success? Ribavirin, andrographolide, etc. I sometimes feel that my problems seem more like GWI than ME/CFS, because of non viral onset. Or would you think that these are two quite different illnesses?"

So, this is all incredibly interesting. I recommend reading all of this, and also Googling some of this, because it is a fascinating story, and I can’t share it all here.

GWI = Gulf War Illness. I actually do think it is different from ME/CFS though, because it is such an isolated case, w vets exposed to certain chemicals. The chemicals appear to be a huge common denominator here. But for all we know, they were maybe exposed to a virus overseas and the chem. exposure primed their bodies for the worst.

Question is referring to - https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2...lness-herbs-gut-chronic-fatigue-fibromyalgia/ (which points to the actual studies)

Andrographolide - I was not aware this increases Akkermansia bacteria in the gut. This bacteria is very important and beneficial. I myself am very low on Akkermansia and had never found a probiotic to increase it. So that's great to know!

Ribavirin - this is a RNA dependent RNA polymerase (RdRp) inhibitor, like Remdesivir. It stops RNA viruses like enterovirus and SARS-CoV-2. Ribavirin was actually used in combo w IFN alpha in Dr. Chia's studies.

In my opinion, the oral poliovirus vaccine combined w the chemicals they received for anti-biological warfare, made them vulnerable to some type of RNA virus. Doesn’t look like Enterovirus though. Could have been something else like it.

Here’s an article showing how they found unknown RNA patterns in GWI….

“These band patterns were detected by RT-PCR but not by direct PCR, implicating the presence of RNAs and not DNAs in the sera”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC103718/

“Most GWVs received oral poliovirus vaccine before deployment to the Persian Gulf.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC103718/

Then we have this. Ribavirin is an RNA virus inhibitor. And was shown to heal the gut AND intestinal permeability in GWI. This sounds 100% like the other persistent RNA viruses in the intestinal epithelium that lead to chronic illness and CFS (Enterovirus, SARS-CoV-2, West Nile, Norovirus, Ross River, etc).

Gut dysbiosis & intestinal permeability healed - The fact that Ribavirin did BOTH is very telling.

“Ribavirin is mostly used to treat hepatitis C and viral hemorrhagic fever but, in this case, not only did it return the gut virome to health, but it also stopped the leaky gut and reduced the inflammation in the brain”
https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2...lness-herbs-gut-chronic-fatigue-fibromyalgia/

Important to remember though, Ribavirin actually does not cure persistent EV in ME/CFS, it’s already been studied. Though it does decrease viral load. Just does not remove it 100%.

Andrographolide… someone else asked me about this. Obviously it’s great for the gut. But due to its anti-inflammatory effects, I am not 100% sure that it won’t counteract IFN Lambda.

In summary, I believe GWI is different from CFS, and I also believe they both involve persistent RNA infection in intestinal epithelium, and that gut dysbiosis is involved in both, perpetuated by RNA virus

 

[Hip]

If I remember correctly, the epidemiological studies, which examined all the possible causal factors for GWI, found that organophosphate exposure was the key issue. Troops were exposed to organophosphates both from the organophosphate pesticides sprayed on their clothes to prevent insect bites, and also from blowing up Saddam's chemical weapons factories, which likely would have caused organophosphate chemicals to waft through the air.

Most of the nasty military chemical warfare nerve agents (like VX, sarin and novichok) are organophosphates.

But there also appeared to be a pathogen involved in GWI, as some soldiers reported that family members developed GWI after they returned home from combat duty.



Studies in Scotland showed that farmers who use sheep dip, an organophosphate compound, have 4 times the prevalence of ME/CFS compared to the rest of the population.

A very serious chronic organophosphate exposure was also involved in my ME/CFS, just one year or so before I caught the virus which triggered my ME/CFS.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

A very serious chronic organophosphate exposure was also involved in my ME/CFS, just one year or so before I caught the virus which triggered my ME/CFS.

Do you think that might have contributed to immune priming by multiple “hits” - as Amy calls it?

 

[Hip]

Do you think that might have contributed to immune priming by multiple “hits” - as Amy calls it?

It's hard to determine the mechanism by which organophosphate pesticides might help trigger ME/CFS. These pesticides are also linked to other diseases and conditions, including Parkinson's, ADHD, autism, and lowering children's IQs.

Prof Peter Behan, who was one of the UK's leading ME/CFS researchers decades ago, studied the pesticide link to ME/CFS. In one study, he found people exposed to organophosphates had distubances of hypothalamic function similar to that found in ME/CFS.

In another study, Behan compares and contrasts ME/CFS to the the neurobehavioural syndrome that can follow organophosphate exposure. So here he views them as two separate diseases.

It seems that the connection between organophosphate pesticides and ME/CFS is analogous to the connection between mold and ME/CFS.

You can seemingly develop mold illness (Dr Shoemaker's CIRS) just by pure mold exposure, without any acute viral infection involved; or you can be a classic ME/CFS patient whose illness was triggered by an acute viral infection, but you also had chronic mold exposure playing into the picture.

Likewise, you can develop a health disorder after major exposure to organophosphates alone (which involves fatigue, concentration problems, memory problems, according to this study), or you could have both an acute viral infection and organophosphate exposure together, which act in tandem. GWI in some cases may be these two factors acting in tandem.


In one murine study the organophosphate pesticide chlorpyrifos was shown to damage the gut, causing leaky gut and higher blood LPS levels. So that could be one way that organophosphates help trigger ME/CFS, if one subscribes to the ME/CFS leaky gut theory of Prof Michael Maes.



I just remembered I put together an MEpedia article on the pesticide exposure link to ME/CFS.

 

[sometexan84]

If I remember correctly, the epidemiological studies, which examined all the possible causal factors for GWI, found that organophosphate exposure was the key issue. Troops were exposed to organophosphates both from the organophosphate pesticides sprayed on their clothes to prevent insect bites, and also from blowing up Saddam's chemical weapons factories, which likely would have caused organophosphate chemicals to waft through the air.

I thought you might have known! Thank you!

I found this neat chart on Organophosphates, and how they can mess you up. From this article on OP's and SARS-CoV-2

@Hip What are your thoughts on multiple polio vaccines being administered?

But there also appeared to be a pathogen involved in GWI, as some soldiers reported that family members developed GWI after they returned home from combat duty.

Do you have any more info on these pathogens, articles, etc?

A very serious chronic organophosphate exposure was also involved in my ME/CFS, just one year or so before I caught the virus which triggered my ME/CFS.

Were you tending sheep?

 

[Hip]

I thought you might have known! Thank you!

I have not read up on GWI to any great deal, so I only really know the basics. I believe there is more than one form of GWI, so that further complicates the picture. Dr Nancy Klimas of course has done a lot of GWI research.

@Hip What are your thoughts on multiple polio vaccines being administered?

The soldiers were given quite a few vaccines, I can't remember if these were believed to play into the GWI picture. There were lots of epidemiological studies on GWI, so you'd have to check those out regarding what was identified as the likely causal factors. Last time I read into it, organophosphate were one of the key factors that the epidemiological studies uncovered.

Do you have any more info on these pathogens, articles, etc?

I only heard that anecdotally, soldiers would report family members developing similar symptoms once they returned home, suggesting a pathogen. I don't know if any effort was made to identify it. It may have just been a relatively benign virus like enterovirus, which was made more nasty by acting in tandem with organophosphates. Erik Johnson's dual-factor theory of ME/CFS posits that ME/CFS is due to a toxin+virus.

Were you tending sheep?

In the UK, this would normally be a cue for some sheep shagging jokes! (shagging = to have sex, in British English).

But no sheep were involved. I was severely poised by organophosphates indoors in my own home for about 6 months or more, by a freak domestic accident.

There is a organophosphate pesticide called malathion which gardeners use. It's considered one of the less toxic pesticides, so is deemed safe for home use. People even spray it on their pot plants indoors.

However, what most malathion home users do not know is that when malathion is applied, and then slowly breaks down chemically, its breakdown products are 1000 times more toxic that the original malathion!

Now that does not matter too much if malathion is applied outdoors, where its breakdown products are dispersed by the wind and rain. But if you happened to spill some malathion indoors, where there is nothing to disperse it, the stuff you spill will soon turn into a product 1000 times more poisonous, which then poisons everyone in the house for many months, because it remains in the house un-dispersed.

This is what happened to me: someone spilt a large amount of malathion out of a 500 ml bottle in my house, and did not properly clear it up. As that spilt malathion broke down and became 1000 times more toxic, it would the equivalent of spilling 500 liters of malathion in my house!

Suffice to say I developed lots of health problems both mental and physical for 6 months or so after this malathion spill, for which I could not find the cause at the time. As I was working from home, I was exposed to this stuff 24/7, and I never really realized at the time that my health symptoms were coming from my own house.

Some of the physical symptom (involving my testicles — malathion has substantial testicular toxicity — but I won't go into any details!), cleared up after about 6 months, but certain mental health symptoms caused by my malathion exposure are still with me today. Organophosphates are very damaging to the brain. Some people with serious organophosphate exposure commit suicide, because their brains are badly hit.

Then around two years after those awful 6 months of poisoning, I was hit with a viral brain infection from coxsackievirus B, and that caused even further brain damage. So my brain got quite a battering really.

Malathion was later banned in the EU, but is still available in the US.

 

[sometexan84]

It may have just been a relatively benign virus like enterovirus

Yea, but it wasn't enterovirus. The RNA pattern they found did not fit w/ any enterovirus, only "enterovirus-related sequences" or enterovirus related primers

Some of the suspects include West Nile Virus, Brucellosis, and Coxiella burnetti (Q fever), all known CFS related

btw, did you know Florence Nightingale had ME/CFS? from brucellosis

Sounds like they could have caught a number of nasty bugs.

In the UK, this would normally be a cue for some sheep shagging jokes! (shagging = to have sex, in British English).

Like Austin Powers. It all makes sense now!

Ever consider suing? Whoever spilt the chemicals?

 

[Hip]

did you know Florence Nightingale had ME/CFS? from brucellosis

I knew she was an ME/CFS patient, but not that it was due to brucellosis. Interesting. I guess before antibiotics there would not be much you can do for it.

Ever consider suing? Whoever spilt the chemicals?

It was a family member who spilt the pesticide, who was not fully aware of the dangers of pesticides. I did however want to sue to the manufacturer of malathion, for bringing to market a product with such a dangerous characteristic.

But unfortunately after the double hit of brain damage from malathion plus from viral encephalitis (which caused the worse damage), I was in no fit state to do anything. For many years, I could barely read a simple 3-sentence email. It would take 20 minutes of re-reading such a short email before I got the info into my brain.

I did look again into suing the company a few years ago, with some of these no-win no-fee lawyers, but was told it was very hard to start litigation of an incident that took place over 15 years ago. It should normally be within 3 years if you want to start litigation, I was told.

 

[sometexan84]

I did look again into suing the company a few years ago, with some of these no-win no-fee lawyers, but was told it was very hard to start litigation of an incident that took place over 15 years ago. It should normally be within 3 years if you want to start litigation, I was told.

Looks like lawsuits here aren't that uncommon....
https://www.google.com/search?q=malathion+manufacturer+sue

 

[vision blue]

Youre reminding me i should check again for a biocide used in my apt- it was poured underneath a false floor next to bathroom following a wayer leak/broken pipe (caused by incompetence). Got very sick from that and i could still smell it in that room a year later. Called Omni-q and not supposed to be used ibside residences. Its considered a medical cleanser that kills viruses and bacteria and used in hospital. Altho i was sick before, i didnt have i dont think what i consider neuro degeneration symptoms. One two punch for me too because then i got the recurrent virus.

Cant remember if organophosphates is on the non metal urine toxic chemical profile. Would be useful for peoppe if it did. Offhand sll i remember was what i was very high in- 3 chemicals that are byproducts of exhaust fumes, and then a littke high on flame retardants. Both of these fit with what i inew was going on in my envt.

 

[vision blue]

I just checked my results for non metal toxins. They test 2 markers for organophoshaptes: dimethylphosphate and diethylphosphate. I guess i was asleep before since i didn't remember that for dimethylphosphate (DMP) I am alas in the 80th percentile. Certainly have all the neural symptoms associated with organophosphates. Wondering if that OMNIQ- medcial disinfectant has organophosphates- somewhere i have an ingredient list (its a trade secret...and required my doc to request if from the company). Great, more stuff to be concerned with. Thinking maybe i should repeat the test since been a few years. hmm.

 

[frozenborderline]

I have not read up on GWI to any great deal, so I only really know the basics. I believe there is more than one form of GWI, so that further complicates the picture. Dr Nancy Klimas of course has done a lot of GWI research.





The soldiers were given quite a few vaccines, I can't remember if these were believed to play into the GWI picture. There were lots of epidemiological studies on GWI, so you'd have to check those out regarding what was identified as the likely causal factors. Last time I read into it, organophosphate were one of the key factors that the epidemiological studies uncovered.





I only heard that anecdotally, soldiers would report family members developing similar symptoms once they returned home, suggesting a pathogen. I don't know if any effort was made to identify it. It may have just been a relatively benign virus like enterovirus, which was made more nasty by acting in tandem with organophosphates. Erik Johnson's dual-factor theory of ME/CFS posits that ME/CFS is due to a toxin+virus.





In the UK, this would normally be a cue for some sheep shagging jokes! (shagging = to have sex, in British English).

But no sheep were involved. I was severely poised by organophosphates indoors in my own home for about 6 months or more, by a freak domestic accident.

There is a organophosphate pesticide called malathion which gardeners use. It's considered one of the less toxic pesticides, so is deemed safe for home use. People even spray it on their pot plants indoors.

However, what most malathion home users do not know is that when malathion is applied, and then slowly breaks down chemically, its breakdown products are 1000 times more toxic that the original malathion!

Now that does not matter too much if malathion is applied outdoors, where its breakdown products are dispersed by the wind and rain. But if you happened to spill some malathion indoors, where there is nothing to disperse it, the stuff you spill will soon turn into a product 1000 times more poisonous, which then poisons everyone in the house for many months, because it remains in the house un-dispersed.

This is what happened to me: someone spilt a large amount of malathion out of a 500 ml bottle in my house, and did not properly clear it up. As that spilt malathion broke down and became 1000 times more toxic, it would the equivalent of spilling 500 liters of malathion in my house!

Suffice to say I developed lots of health problems both mental and physical for 6 months or so after this malathion spill, for which I could not find the cause at the time. As I was working from home, I was exposed to this stuff 24/7, and I never really realized at the time that my health symptoms were coming from my own house.

Some of the physical symptom (involving my testicles — malathion has substantial testicular toxicity — but I won't go into any details!), cleared up after about 6 months, but certain mental health symptoms caused by my malathion exposure are still with me today. Organophosphates are very damaging to the brain. Some people with serious organophosphate exposure commit suicide, because their brains are badly hit.

Then around two years after those awful 6 months of poisoning, I was hit with a viral brain infection from coxsackievirus B, and that caused even further brain damage. So my brain got quite a battering really.

Malathion was later banned in the EU, but is still available in the US.

Hi hip, I forgot that you had mentioned having such a distinctive toxin exposure combined with your enterovirus exposure. It's horrible, although fascinating. I have a few questions about it. One, is it fat soluble and do you retain it? Two, have you read about cholestyramine binding organophosphates, or tried this? Do you think that your body could retain any of this and benefit from any form of detox ?

Finally, would you ever want to come on my podcast and discuss your experience? If not, would you at least be down to try recording your experience , narration of it in story form, over your phone or some simple microphone , so that I could use it on the podcast ?

Thanks so much , walker

 

[Hip]

One, is it fat soluble and do you retain it? Two, have you read about cholestyramine binding organophosphates, or tried this? Do you think that your body could retain any of this and benefit from any form of detox ?

The organophosphate class of pesticides are not really considered bioaccumulative, unlike the organochlorine pesticides that they replaced (the reason organophosphates were developed was because organochlorine bioaccumulate in fat).

Many decades ago, if you were poisoned with organochlorines, a detoxification protocol might have been helpful. In fact the late Dr Jon Richardson would use choline and ascorbic acid in his ME/CFS patients to try to detoxify organochlorines.

But I understand that detoxification is not help with organophosphates, since they do not remain in the body fats.

Finally, would you ever want to come on my podcast and discuss your experience? If not, would you at least be down to try recording your experience , narration of it in story form, over your phone or some simple microphone , so that I could use it on the podcas

I'll think about it, but usually I am not good at explaining things verbally, as I am usually too brain fogged to remember the relevant details. Whereas with the slower process of writing and then editing, this gives me more time and space to get the points down.

I did write this MEpedia article on pesticides, to try to get the info out there.