sometexan84
Senior Member
- Messages
- 1,195
Someone asked me this question, and my response is below. But I want to ask @Hip about this too because I think you prob have more experience researching GWI.
Is any of the below info wrong, or off, or have there been more recent updates that negate some of what I said?
They never found enterovirus right? Just something else that was LIKE it?
Also, what are your overall thoughts? I think others will be interested in this topic as well as your opinion. Also, I know that you know more about the polio virus vaccine and its involvement w CFS more than anyone alive (which I think is a key factor involved w GWI)
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"I'm wondering, how do you think enterovirus theory fits with Klimas's mouse model GWI success? Ribavirin, andrographolide, etc. I sometimes feel that my problems seem more like GWI than ME/CFS, because of non viral onset. Or would you think that these are two quite different illnesses?"
So, this is all incredibly interesting. I recommend reading all of this, and also Googling some of this, because it is a fascinating story, and I can’t share it all here.
GWI = Gulf War Illness. I actually do think it is different from ME/CFS though, because it is such an isolated case, w vets exposed to certain chemicals. The chemicals appear to be a huge common denominator here. But for all we know, they were maybe exposed to a virus overseas and the chem. exposure primed their bodies for the worst.
Question is referring to - https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2...lness-herbs-gut-chronic-fatigue-fibromyalgia/ (which points to the actual studies)
Andrographolide - I was not aware this increases Akkermansia bacteria in the gut. This bacteria is very important and beneficial. I myself am very low on Akkermansia and had never found a probiotic to increase it. So that's great to know!
Ribavirin - this is a RNA dependent RNA polymerase (RdRp) inhibitor, like Remdesivir. It stops RNA viruses like enterovirus and SARS-CoV-2. Ribavirin was actually used in combo w IFN alpha in Dr. Chia's studies.
In my opinion, the oral poliovirus vaccine combined w the chemicals they received for anti-biological warfare, made them vulnerable to some type of RNA virus. Doesn’t look like Enterovirus though. Could have been something else like it.
Here’s an article showing how they found unknown RNA patterns in GWI….
“These band patterns were detected by RT-PCR but not by direct PCR, implicating the presence of RNAs and not DNAs in the sera”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC103718/
“Most GWVs received oral poliovirus vaccine before deployment to the Persian Gulf.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC103718/
Then we have this. Ribavirin is an RNA virus inhibitor. And was shown to heal the gut AND intestinal permeability in GWI. This sounds 100% like the other persistent RNA viruses in the intestinal epithelium that lead to chronic illness and CFS (Enterovirus, SARS-CoV-2, West Nile, Norovirus, Ross River, etc).
Gut dysbiosis & intestinal permeability healed - The fact that Ribavirin did BOTH is very telling.
“Ribavirin is mostly used to treat hepatitis C and viral hemorrhagic fever but, in this case, not only did it return the gut virome to health, but it also stopped the leaky gut and reduced the inflammation in the brain”
https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2...lness-herbs-gut-chronic-fatigue-fibromyalgia/
Important to remember though, Ribavirin actually does not cure persistent EV in ME/CFS, it’s already been studied. Though it does decrease viral load. Just does not remove it 100%.
Andrographolide… someone else asked me about this. Obviously it’s great for the gut. But due to its anti-inflammatory effects, I am not 100% sure that it won’t counteract IFN Lambda.
In summary, I believe GWI is different from CFS, and I also believe they both involve persistent RNA infection in intestinal epithelium, and that gut dysbiosis is involved in both, perpetuated by RNA virus
Is any of the below info wrong, or off, or have there been more recent updates that negate some of what I said?
They never found enterovirus right? Just something else that was LIKE it?
Also, what are your overall thoughts? I think others will be interested in this topic as well as your opinion. Also, I know that you know more about the polio virus vaccine and its involvement w CFS more than anyone alive (which I think is a key factor involved w GWI)
---------------------------------------------------------
"I'm wondering, how do you think enterovirus theory fits with Klimas's mouse model GWI success? Ribavirin, andrographolide, etc. I sometimes feel that my problems seem more like GWI than ME/CFS, because of non viral onset. Or would you think that these are two quite different illnesses?"
So, this is all incredibly interesting. I recommend reading all of this, and also Googling some of this, because it is a fascinating story, and I can’t share it all here.
GWI = Gulf War Illness. I actually do think it is different from ME/CFS though, because it is such an isolated case, w vets exposed to certain chemicals. The chemicals appear to be a huge common denominator here. But for all we know, they were maybe exposed to a virus overseas and the chem. exposure primed their bodies for the worst.
Question is referring to - https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2...lness-herbs-gut-chronic-fatigue-fibromyalgia/ (which points to the actual studies)
Andrographolide - I was not aware this increases Akkermansia bacteria in the gut. This bacteria is very important and beneficial. I myself am very low on Akkermansia and had never found a probiotic to increase it. So that's great to know!
Ribavirin - this is a RNA dependent RNA polymerase (RdRp) inhibitor, like Remdesivir. It stops RNA viruses like enterovirus and SARS-CoV-2. Ribavirin was actually used in combo w IFN alpha in Dr. Chia's studies.
In my opinion, the oral poliovirus vaccine combined w the chemicals they received for anti-biological warfare, made them vulnerable to some type of RNA virus. Doesn’t look like Enterovirus though. Could have been something else like it.
Here’s an article showing how they found unknown RNA patterns in GWI….
“These band patterns were detected by RT-PCR but not by direct PCR, implicating the presence of RNAs and not DNAs in the sera”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC103718/
“Most GWVs received oral poliovirus vaccine before deployment to the Persian Gulf.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC103718/
Then we have this. Ribavirin is an RNA virus inhibitor. And was shown to heal the gut AND intestinal permeability in GWI. This sounds 100% like the other persistent RNA viruses in the intestinal epithelium that lead to chronic illness and CFS (Enterovirus, SARS-CoV-2, West Nile, Norovirus, Ross River, etc).
Gut dysbiosis & intestinal permeability healed - The fact that Ribavirin did BOTH is very telling.
“Ribavirin is mostly used to treat hepatitis C and viral hemorrhagic fever but, in this case, not only did it return the gut virome to health, but it also stopped the leaky gut and reduced the inflammation in the brain”
https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2...lness-herbs-gut-chronic-fatigue-fibromyalgia/
Important to remember though, Ribavirin actually does not cure persistent EV in ME/CFS, it’s already been studied. Though it does decrease viral load. Just does not remove it 100%.
Andrographolide… someone else asked me about this. Obviously it’s great for the gut. But due to its anti-inflammatory effects, I am not 100% sure that it won’t counteract IFN Lambda.
In summary, I believe GWI is different from CFS, and I also believe they both involve persistent RNA infection in intestinal epithelium, and that gut dysbiosis is involved in both, perpetuated by RNA virus
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