Homeopathy
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Michael Dessin
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In my "research analysis" I have more than anecdotal evidence pointing towards Fejal fitting that definition....
Im sorry, but if people want to dismiss what makes others well they do an injustice for everyone else.
Im sorry, but if people want to dismiss what makes others well they do an injustice for everyone else.
Chemo is a totally science based medicine however not all people respond or recover from taking these "hard scientific meds"
They have the same cancers the same chances but not one doctor will be able to tell you why it hasn't worked on a patient.Many scientific meds are just as mysterious as naturalpathic or homeopathic.
Also homeopathy meds are not as costly as any prescription med and certainly there wouldn't be enough money to be made.You cannot dismiss the political or financial gains or losses of any medication.
It is a billion dollar industry after all.
They have the same cancers the same chances but not one doctor will be able to tell you why it hasn't worked on a patient.Many scientific meds are just as mysterious as naturalpathic or homeopathic.
Also homeopathy meds are not as costly as any prescription med and certainly there wouldn't be enough money to be made.You cannot dismiss the political or financial gains or losses of any medication.
It is a billion dollar industry after all.
Esther12
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Thanks for those dannybex. It's hard to judge them without access to the full papers, or more information about what controls were used to avoid potential biases from researcher affecting results - it does seem that those studies with the most extensive controls for potential biases are also those that show homeopathic treatments bringing no benefit..
While I try to judge arguments on their merits rather than being swayed by the authority or prestiege of the source, the papers you mentioned seem to have been published in less well respected journals. I think some greater scepticism is warrented for a paper published in favour of homeopathy from 'Homeopathy' magazine rather than Science.
From what I know of the history of the development of homeopathy, it does seem more like a culturally evolved ritual rather than an evidence based science. Sometimes our rituals can point towards truths we've yet to uncover, often they can be helpful outlets for our own instinctive desires and most of the the time they are rather odd too. To me it seems that the latter two apply to homeopathy (at least, it seems helpful to some). I think its' benefits are more likely to stem from the real relief that can be granted by the belief that you have a competent expert who is taking an interest in your problems and helping to resolve them (something those of us with CFS seem to badly lack) rather than any chemical property of the pills being sold.
I always feel a bit cruel criticising homeopathy without having a more effective treatment to suggest, especially as doing so could help to undermine the real benefits it can bring, but I also think it's wrong to promote homeopathy as if it were a scientifically validated approach to medicine.
If some people find homeopathy helpful, that's great. Who knows, maybe one day it will turn out the homeopaths were right all along - but it seems pretty unlikely right now.
@ mark: I actually thought similar things when looking at those abstracts - I think it's hard for researchers to slip into the thinking of homeopathy for their studies, because it seems so transparently absurd to them: "Why not combine five treatments - none of them do anything, so how could they interact?"
The trouble with many studies by hard-core science of homeopathy is that they are often, as mentioned above, not evaluating patients that are being treated by a qualified homeopath with the correct remedy for the correct (homeopathic) diagnosis. It is a complex diagnostic process, with different remedies having very subtle profiles.
Would you trust a study done about chemotherapy administered by a podiatrist? Or tests of a retroviral medicine prescribed and dosed by a dentist or dermatologist?
Would you measure bone density with an echocardiogram? Lung capacity with a blood panel?
You have to measure things with the appropriate tool, and the appropriate circumstances. No one is arguing against science here. What is being patiently pointed out is that science has yet to develop the appropriate tools and testing methodologies for certain things. That is the history of science. It is always changing and adapting to the new frontiers it fords. Science has yet to understand and measure vibrational medicine, or any other kind of energy or "alternative" medicine, because it hasn't yet learned what to measure or what to measure it with. It is basing its findings on measuring the wrong thing with the wrong tool.
And Fejal, since you've stated you don't want to waste any time arguing about this, feel free to recuse yourself from these discussions. I am once again finding your tone and approach to be antithetical to the spirit of this forum.
Would you trust a study done about chemotherapy administered by a podiatrist? Or tests of a retroviral medicine prescribed and dosed by a dentist or dermatologist?
Would you measure bone density with an echocardiogram? Lung capacity with a blood panel?
You have to measure things with the appropriate tool, and the appropriate circumstances. No one is arguing against science here. What is being patiently pointed out is that science has yet to develop the appropriate tools and testing methodologies for certain things. That is the history of science. It is always changing and adapting to the new frontiers it fords. Science has yet to understand and measure vibrational medicine, or any other kind of energy or "alternative" medicine, because it hasn't yet learned what to measure or what to measure it with. It is basing its findings on measuring the wrong thing with the wrong tool.
And Fejal, since you've stated you don't want to waste any time arguing about this, feel free to recuse yourself from these discussions. I am once again finding your tone and approach to be antithetical to the spirit of this forum.
Esther12
Senior Member
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Just a quick note here.
Even if there were alternative medicines able to help people through strange and unknown forces, well controlled studies should still be able to measure the positive impact upon people's health that these forces had and compare it to an appropriate placebo. Just because a therapy claims to work through untestable means does not mean that we cannot measure whether the treatment does as is claimed and produces a real and significant improvement to patients.
Leela, just because something is complicated doesn't have any bearing on its validity. Of course the methods need to be what is commonly used but the reason homeopathy failed to prove itself isn't some excuse about a lack of qualified homeopaths, it's because it is crap.
Many doctors in the U.K. use homeopathic remedies and these are M.D.s.They use them for simple issues like colds,flus, trama etc.but not having exstensive training they don't use the deeper issue remedies that can assist in some healing.
Someone should inform the Royal family that they're taking crap and have been for decades.Silly Royals.
Accupunture wasn't thought much of just as chiropathic treatments along with vitimans.These are now everyday practices and are recommended to patients by the very same doctors who use to doubt all of it.
We have a disease that may be XMRV or related viruses although more studies have shown that XMRV doesn't exist.We know we have something even if it can't be scientifically agreed on.Ten years ago only a handful of people believed what cfs/me/ebv people were telling them and that it's taken as long as it has is directly to do with what science hadn't found.hmm maybe if we had people who were really hearing us it may have been sooner.If you haven't experienced it you have no idea what it does.Now is that this freaking illness or homeopathy.Sound the same don't they.
Someone should inform the Royal family that they're taking crap and have been for decades.Silly Royals.
Accupunture wasn't thought much of just as chiropathic treatments along with vitimans.These are now everyday practices and are recommended to patients by the very same doctors who use to doubt all of it.
We have a disease that may be XMRV or related viruses although more studies have shown that XMRV doesn't exist.We know we have something even if it can't be scientifically agreed on.Ten years ago only a handful of people believed what cfs/me/ebv people were telling them and that it's taken as long as it has is directly to do with what science hadn't found.hmm maybe if we had people who were really hearing us it may have been sooner.If you haven't experienced it you have no idea what it does.Now is that this freaking illness or homeopathy.Sound the same don't they.
mojoey
Senior Member
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Clinical trials take millions of dollars to conduct. Until anywhere near equivalent amount of money is spent funding homeopathy trials as drug trials, comparing clinical efficacy according to the double-blind clinical trial model is pointless.
I don't really care if fejal thinks noticeable reactions to drops of water are due to placebo effect. He's one of the most close-minded individuals I've ever come across in this forum, and I don't believe a word he says about XMRV (let alone his statement about having "low count of XMRV" being pure speculation which he reports as fact) or anything else. Unlike drugs, these harsh reactions can't be explained by chemical toxicity so I invite anyone who is truly curious to see an expert in homeopathy and derive your own conclusions. Arguing about it with other people will always be polarizing, which is why I gave up on it a long time ago.
Unfortunately for most people, homeopathy will forever be something that's given heaps of praise by anecdotal evidence and frowned upon by the medical establishment. That's just how things will be, so this argument isn't really about whether it works (because most of us posting here already set our own opinions on that) but really about how much clout we give anecdotal evidence. Based on what I've seen that's said about other therapies, it seems most ME/CFS patients realize that anecdotal evidence plays a huge role in our community, whether it be the reporting of ampligen, HIV drugs, valcyte, or b12. This is because like homeopathy, non-homeopathic ME/CFS treatments haven't received appropriate funding for clinical trials, yet I don't hear people attacking these anecdotal reports.
I don't really care if fejal thinks noticeable reactions to drops of water are due to placebo effect. He's one of the most close-minded individuals I've ever come across in this forum, and I don't believe a word he says about XMRV (let alone his statement about having "low count of XMRV" being pure speculation which he reports as fact) or anything else. Unlike drugs, these harsh reactions can't be explained by chemical toxicity so I invite anyone who is truly curious to see an expert in homeopathy and derive your own conclusions. Arguing about it with other people will always be polarizing, which is why I gave up on it a long time ago.
Unfortunately for most people, homeopathy will forever be something that's given heaps of praise by anecdotal evidence and frowned upon by the medical establishment. That's just how things will be, so this argument isn't really about whether it works (because most of us posting here already set our own opinions on that) but really about how much clout we give anecdotal evidence. Based on what I've seen that's said about other therapies, it seems most ME/CFS patients realize that anecdotal evidence plays a huge role in our community, whether it be the reporting of ampligen, HIV drugs, valcyte, or b12. This is because like homeopathy, non-homeopathic ME/CFS treatments haven't received appropriate funding for clinical trials, yet I don't hear people attacking these anecdotal reports.
Wayne
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- Ashland, Oregon
Sensitivity to Vibrations
Hi All,
I just started reading this thread today. Thank you for the many good points raised. Leela, I think your point above cuts to the heart of the situation. As far as I know, I dont think theres a way to physically measure the vibration of various substances, except through actually experiencing it.
In this regard, I had an interesting experience a few years ago. I was well enough to go out and do some grocery shopping, and doing pretty well with it. When I got home and started putting the groceries away, I quickly started to feel incredibly drained.
Becoming concerned, I decided to rest for a while before finishing putting the groceries away. Within minutes, I was surprised I recovered as quickly as I did, so went back to the kitchen to finish my task. Within moments, I felt incredibly drained again. This was all very unusual and confusing.
I then noticed some unusual looking pink pills on the kitchen counter. As I approached them, I became even more nauseated and drained. Turns out, these were some oral chemotherapy pills our guest was taking for her breast cancer, and I was reacting to the vibration of them.
One other experience (among many) where I experienced the effect of vibrations: I at one time went to visit a classical homeopath (who I didnt particularly care for and who I believe gave me a wrong remedy because she didnt listen very well). My point however; when I went into the room to get the remedy she prescribed, I immediately (and unexpectedly) experienced extreme vertigo.
I felt an urgent need to lay down somewhere, but upon exiting the room, the vertigo quickly went away. Only after I went back into the room did I realize it was the hundreds of different homeopathic remedies giving off all these different vibrations that made me react as I did.
For me, measuring vibrations (of anything) is how I react to them. I normally dont buy supplements of any kind unless I can first touch a bottle of them physically and get a sense whether the vibration will be helpful or not.
I dont expect anybody to necessarily believe how I experience vibrations. For me, its just a part of the life I live. I dont look at being so sensitive as being necessarily positive or negative. On a negative note, I dont like being so sensitive to various influences around me that can drain me. On the positive side, I think it helps me stay aware of what may be going on in my environment at any given time, and save me from a lot of unnecessary wear and tear.
I guess one final point about homeopathy: I strongly believe in the principle of to each their own. To some of those extreme critics (who can be so condescending) I would ask, "why not just let other people do their thing in the same way you would like to be allowed to do your thing?"
Best to All, Wayne
BTW Esther, I don't consider you an extreme critic. :Retro smile:
Hi All,
I just started reading this thread today. Thank you for the many good points raised. Leela, I think your point above cuts to the heart of the situation. As far as I know, I dont think theres a way to physically measure the vibration of various substances, except through actually experiencing it.
In this regard, I had an interesting experience a few years ago. I was well enough to go out and do some grocery shopping, and doing pretty well with it. When I got home and started putting the groceries away, I quickly started to feel incredibly drained.
Becoming concerned, I decided to rest for a while before finishing putting the groceries away. Within minutes, I was surprised I recovered as quickly as I did, so went back to the kitchen to finish my task. Within moments, I felt incredibly drained again. This was all very unusual and confusing.
I then noticed some unusual looking pink pills on the kitchen counter. As I approached them, I became even more nauseated and drained. Turns out, these were some oral chemotherapy pills our guest was taking for her breast cancer, and I was reacting to the vibration of them.
One other experience (among many) where I experienced the effect of vibrations: I at one time went to visit a classical homeopath (who I didnt particularly care for and who I believe gave me a wrong remedy because she didnt listen very well). My point however; when I went into the room to get the remedy she prescribed, I immediately (and unexpectedly) experienced extreme vertigo.
I felt an urgent need to lay down somewhere, but upon exiting the room, the vertigo quickly went away. Only after I went back into the room did I realize it was the hundreds of different homeopathic remedies giving off all these different vibrations that made me react as I did.
For me, measuring vibrations (of anything) is how I react to them. I normally dont buy supplements of any kind unless I can first touch a bottle of them physically and get a sense whether the vibration will be helpful or not.
I dont expect anybody to necessarily believe how I experience vibrations. For me, its just a part of the life I live. I dont look at being so sensitive as being necessarily positive or negative. On a negative note, I dont like being so sensitive to various influences around me that can drain me. On the positive side, I think it helps me stay aware of what may be going on in my environment at any given time, and save me from a lot of unnecessary wear and tear.
I guess one final point about homeopathy: I strongly believe in the principle of to each their own. To some of those extreme critics (who can be so condescending) I would ask, "why not just let other people do their thing in the same way you would like to be allowed to do your thing?"
Best to All, Wayne
BTW Esther, I don't consider you an extreme critic. :Retro smile:
C
Cloud
Guest
In the area where I live, alternative/natural/complimentary medicine, is commonplace. All the local hospitals offer a full range of Natural as well as Allopathic medicine. You can get anything from energy work and massage to chemotherapy. I am trained and certified in Healing Touch which is basically energy work. I have no links to documented evidence on it's effectiveness, only reported effects. But for what it's worth, I will share this experience.....My daughter was in a coma for a month after a car wreck. Because of her head trauma, she had an ICP monitor (Intra Cranial Pressure) in the top of her skull. This was necessary because increased cranial pressure secondary to the trauma, was a dangerous possibility. While in the coma, one of the interventions we did was Healing Touch work on her......and as I did the treatment, you could watch the pressure drop on the monitor by measures not possible by any other accounts. Now, I'm sure there are those who want to see documented double blinded studies to prove that really happened....but sorry, that's all you get, take it or leave it.
We have had to be become our own diagnosticians and treating physicians with this crazy disease. Our best tool is networking and learning from one another on what works and what doesn't work. We don't always have the luxury of waiting for scientifically proven Tx's. Debating the scientific facts in this regard is good, but not when it consumes one to the point of missing simple and common sense ideas reported by many to be effective.
We have had to be become our own diagnosticians and treating physicians with this crazy disease. Our best tool is networking and learning from one another on what works and what doesn't work. We don't always have the luxury of waiting for scientifically proven Tx's. Debating the scientific facts in this regard is good, but not when it consumes one to the point of missing simple and common sense ideas reported by many to be effective.
Michael Dessin
Senior Member
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Wayne, good stuff! Even though this discussion can seem harsh at times...I know those here who use homeopathics with success, get a good chuckle when people try to dismiss what we know is true.
Maryb--Yes, I do take under the supervision of a practitioner. Generally by a push, which is shot directly into the arm vein and the procedure takes two minutes or by 15-20 min IV.
BTW-- This past week I saw with my own eyes, two patients 80% functional on ampligen. Both of whom would be bedridden without it. Last year I saw one of those patients wheelchair bound and barely able to communicate a word, this year she was vibrant and full of words after 7 months of ampligen!!
Most patients have no access to this life altering/life saving drug because......
Maryb--Yes, I do take under the supervision of a practitioner. Generally by a push, which is shot directly into the arm vein and the procedure takes two minutes or by 15-20 min IV.
BTW-- This past week I saw with my own eyes, two patients 80% functional on ampligen. Both of whom would be bedridden without it. Last year I saw one of those patients wheelchair bound and barely able to communicate a word, this year she was vibrant and full of words after 7 months of ampligen!!
Most patients have no access to this life altering/life saving drug because......
Michael Dessin
Senior Member
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- 608
- Location
- Ohio
From what I understand, there are two or three locations in which the trials are ran.
Its a cost recovery program where the patient pays roughly 1,200 a month a I believe.
I think Tahoe and North Carolina are two locations but not positive.
I think you must travel to the designated locations for access to ampligen
Its a cost recovery program where the patient pays roughly 1,200 a month a I believe.
I think Tahoe and North Carolina are two locations but not positive.
I think you must travel to the designated locations for access to ampligen
It's easy to measure vibration, just use Kirlian Photography.
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/tests.html
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/tests.html
C