High dose melatonin

[heapsreal]

@heapsreal - Doris Loh has been getting lots of questions - so she put this on twitter.

The most frequent comment on melatonin supplementation is "I feel awful taking the tiniest amount". When that happens, it is often a sign your mitochondria needs help from melatonin - A LOT of help, in fact. Take a look at this anecdotal comment. High-dose MEL & AA. Dynamic Duo!

I don't feel unwell from melatonin, actually feel good first thing in morning. Then just my usual unrelated stuff kicks in.
Last night I had a headache that wasn't responding to a normal pain killer dose so had to increase it. This morning a couple hrs after waking up, left side of my head was aching and I took a selfie and starting to get another shingles episode with spots appearing.

I have joined Doris Loh group yesterday and accepted a few hrs ago. Plus following her page that isn't private. Haven't had alot of time to look through it.

500-1000mg of melatonin struth! Although that sounds right with some studies recommending 10mg per kg of body wt, that's big doses.

Do they just use melatonin bulk powder forms or do they have access to high dose tablets as 20mg tabs are the highest I've seen.
What sort of doses do the recommend for vit C?

 

[Marylib]

You can find bulk melatonin powder from the UK and the US, but importing is another matter. You should be fine in Australia - here in New Zealand it's a small population so they can aggravate you more and seize a shipment when they want to. The only way to get it for sure in NZ is to import from Aus. Otherwise you pay lots of money for a 2mg. Rx. If you are successful with your import let me know. Here is the UK option:
https://rawpowders.co.uk/melatonin
Several in the US - they sell on Amazon and there is another one called PureBulk.com (I need to clear my cache to make their website work.

Sorry those shingles are coming back. Here is a good interview with Dr Russel Reiter that I saw today - he mentions Doris Loh and their collaboration - and her brilliant mind. Classical pianists sometimes make good scientists I guess. Anyway, he answers quite a few questions about melatonin, which he has been studying since the 1960's.

Doris has a private group for study and research purposes. So people can learn and speak more freely.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1406779789714470

 

[heapsreal]

Last night took 100mg all at once. Still need a sleep Med to help me fall asleep but sleep quality is good and I'm not waking up at all during the night. About 1130pm I fell asleep and woke up at 830am, 9hrs wow. Just need to get that falling asleep part sorted.

 

[heapsreal]

My sleep is definitely better. Previously taking 3 benzo meds to initiate sleep and some type of antihistamine to help maintain sleep. But recently my sleep has been very broken. I'd sleep for maybe 2 hrs then awake for 2-3 hrs than maybe another couple hrs sleep.

Now on my new sleep protocol I take 1 Med to initiate sleep like zolpidem or zopiclone. At this stage 60mg of melatonin seems to work best. 100mg melatonin leaves me abit too groggy in the morning, where 60mg seems to be the spot.

So I take my 1xzolpidem and 60mg melatonin at night and I fall asleep within an hr and I wake up in 8hrs or so. I feel abit groggy for 5minutes and then I feel refreshed like I've slept the whole night and I have lol.

I was getting worried before this experiment that sleep meds were just going to stop working for me altogether. I wasn't really expecting the high dose melatonin to do much but they have just about replaced all my sleep meds. It is only a week, so we will see what happens in the future with sleep.

 

[Marylib]

My shipment got here! Now I don't have to starve myself looking at the little 3mg capsules and saving for a rainy day. I'll start increasing my dose incrementally and see what happens. At my age, I need all the antioxidants I can get. As far as I can tell, what is not used is excreted normally but the need for other antioxidants like vitamin C can be reduced. Like an inverse relationship. Still learning about it all...

 

[heapsreal]

My shipment got here! Now I don't have to starve myself looking at the little 3mg capsules and saving for a rainy day. I'll start increasing my dose incrementally and see what happens. At my age, I need all the antioxidants I can get. As far as I can tell, what is not used is excreted normally but the need for other antioxidants like vitamin C can be reduced. Like an inverse relationship. Still learning about it all...

Good to hear you got the shipment

 

[Tammy]

My sleep is definitely better. Previously taking 3 benzo meds to initiate sleep and some type of antihistamine to help maintain sleep. But recently my sleep has been very broken. I'd sleep for maybe 2 hrs then awake for 2-3 hrs than maybe another couple hrs sleep.

Now on my new sleep protocol I take 1 Med to initiate sleep like zolpidem or zopiclone. At this stage 60mg of melatonin seems to work best. 100mg melatonin leaves me abit too groggy in the morning, where 60mg seems to be the spot.

So I take my 1xzolpidem and 60mg melatonin at night and I fall asleep within an hr and I wake up in 8hrs or so. I feel abit groggy for 5minutes and then I feel refreshed like I've slept the whole night and I have lol.

I was getting worried before this experiment that sleep meds were just going to stop working for me altogether. I wasn't really expecting the high dose melatonin to do much but they have just about replaced all my sleep meds. It is only a week, so we will see what happens in the future with sleep.

Good news heapsreal....................keep us updated. I wish I could take melatonin. Maybe I should have another go at it and just start with very low dosage and work up.

 

[Marylib]

Possible Application of Melatonin in Long COVID

"It may well be true that higher doses of melatonin would be more beneficial in the COVID pandemic condition. For example, in a retrospective cross-sectional study of a closed population of 110 old adult patients treated with a mean melatonin daily dose of 46 mg for at least 12 months prior to the availability of COVID-19 vaccination, there was no death in the face of a lethality rate of 10.5% in the local population of elders suffering acute COVID-19 disease."

 

[Mary]

@heapsreal - your experiment with melatonin is quite interesting! I've just used 3 mg sublingual for many years though recently increased it to 10, though I think it's a low quality product, have not noticed anything different with the 10 mg.

Several years I started taking plain niacin - 400 - 500 mg - before bed and started falling asleep quite a bit more quickly. It would cause the niacin flush but I didn't mind because once that was done, I'd feel nice and relaxed and generally fall asleep shortly thereafter. Then I would take 400 or more in the middle of the night, with another flush. Unfortunately, it's not having quite the same effect as it used to, but it worked for a very long time so you might try it. Also I added in inositol 1000 mg before bed and 1000 more middle of the night, though someone I know used 3000 before bed and 2000 more later. It's considered safe up to about 18 grams, though I would work up to that dose!

If you do try niacin, don't get time release. Time release niacin has been associated with liver damage, it has something to do with the liver being constantly bathed in niacin. As I recall, my doctor several years ago told me that 1000 mg was the safe upper limit for niacin. I've done okay taking 800 - 900 mg at night for many years. and fwiw, when I tried it during the day it made me tired, probably because it slowed down methylation, but at night it was great. And I don't think the no-flush kind or niacinamide will have same effect.

In the meanwhile, I'll follow your progress with the melatonin

 

[heapsreal]

Update. Sleep has gone strange again but I can't blame or say melatonin is not working. It's about 3 weeks ago I had an arthroscope on my knee. About 10 days ago saw the surgeon to review my knee and he said start getting active with an exercise bike, something that's minimal wt bearing. 10mins I started off at and planned 10mins everyday but struggling with pain and inflammation, so trying every 2nd day.

So sleep is being disrupted by knee/leg pain. So I'm keeping my dose down to 20mg which is one pill at the moment. Still taking less meds for sleep as well. If I wake up with pain at 2am or there about I might take another zolpidem plus something for my knee.

What I have noticed with the bigger doses, which might be apart of altering ones circadian rhythm, is I wake up at 5am when the sun comes up and I'm wide awake. So not just triggering one to go to sleep but for me it seems to trigger me to wake up when the sun rises. Something I've never noticed from smaller doses.

So for now I will stick to 20mg until my knee isn't waking me up throughout the night. I'm currently off work because of the knee but when I get back to work I'm interested to try the larger doses to also see if it helps me wake up earlier and feeling better. I usually start work at 6am and waking up to get ready for 6am start I usually feel crappy and takes a few hrs to get going. So it may help with that early morning start???

One thing we can rely on with cfs is if we throw something at it and it helps, our bodies always seem to fight against it to get back to normal insomniac cfs, not a normal sleeping, body clock cfs.

 

[heapsreal]

@heapsreal - your experiment with melatonin is quite interesting! I've just used 3 mg sublingual for many years though recently increased it to 10, though I think it's a low quality product, have not noticed anything different with the 10 mg.

Several years I started taking plain niacin - 400 - 500 mg - before bed and started falling asleep quite a bit more quickly. It would cause the niacin flush but I didn't mind because once that was done, I'd feel nice and relaxed and generally fall asleep shortly thereafter. Then I would take 400 or more in the middle of the night, with another flush. Unfortunately, it's not having quite the same effect as it used to, but it worked for a very long time so you might try it. Also I added in inositol 1000 mg before bed and 1000 more middle of the night, though someone I know used 3000 before bed and 2000 more later. It's considered safe up to about 18 grams, though I would work up to that dose!

If you do try niacin, don't get time release. Time release niacin has been associated with liver damage, it has something to do with the liver being constantly bathed in niacin. As I recall, my doctor several years ago told me that 1000 mg was the safe upper limit for niacin. I've done okay taking 800 - 900 mg at night for many years. and fwiw, when I tried it during the day it made me tired, probably because it slowed down methylation, but at night it was great. And I don't think the no-flush kind or niacinamide will have same effect.

In the meanwhile, I'll follow your progress with the melatonin

Inositol I used years ago and it was relaxing. Might be good for me to use with melatonin to help me drift off.

Niacin, Ouch for me. I even tried the slow release niacin and flushed badly, plus I itch from it and for me it's not relaxing. That's interesting about the niacin, shows we are so different.

If you try higher doses of niacin, I'd be interested to hear how you go.

 

[pamojja]

If you try higher doses of niacin, I'd be interested to hear how you go.

Took about 3g of fast release niacin for the last 14 years. Flush and itching is long gone.

One hast to start very slowly with a non-flushing low dose, and increase only very little gradually with time, for the flushing not to become overwhelming.

 

[Mary]

@heapsreal , magnesium oil might help your knee pain. I put it on anything that may hurt - wrist, back, sometimes a knee. I believe it reduces inflammation. Also, evening primrose oil has helped one of my knees a lot. I had a bad fall at age 19 (long time ago!) and injured it, and thereafter it would periodially swell up, get painful. A doctor once told me I had arthritis in that knee, but what to do? So I did nothing except I bought a knee brace from the drug store and that would help me to walk on it with less pain when it was swollen.

And then 10 or 15 years ago I started taking evening primrose oil and the swelling stopped and my knee got less painful. It's been a long time since it swelled up. A doctor had my parents on evening primrose oil or black currant seed oil for arthritis in their knees. Anyways, it's really helping my knee a lot. So it might do something for you. I have a sister with arthritis in her low back and as long as she takes the EPO, she's good. I take 2 softgels a day, 1.3 or 1.5 grams each.

 

[heapsreal]

@heapsreal , magnesium oil might help your knee pain. I put it on anything that may hurt - wrist, back, sometimes a knee. I believe it reduces inflammation. Also, evening primrose oil has helped one of my knees a lot. I had a bad fall at age 19 (long time ago!) and injured it, and thereafter it would periodially swell up, get painful. A doctor once told me I had arthritis in that knee, but what to do? So I did nothing except I bought a knee brace from the drug store and that would help me to walk on it with less pain when it was swollen.

And then 10 or 15 years ago I started taking evening primrose oil and the swelling stopped and my knee got less painful. It's been a long time since it swelled up. A doctor had my parents on evening primrose oil or black currant seed oil for arthritis in their knees. Anyways, it's really helping my knee a lot. So it might do something for you. I have a sister with arthritis in her low back and as long as she takes the EPO, she's good. I take 2 softgels a day, 1.3 or 1.5 grams each.

My wife has magnesium oil, I'm just hopeless with consistently using creams etc. It's strange cause I stick to a rigid plan of pills.

I think EPO might be the very odd thing I have used since cfsme. I tried it many years ago before cfsme, probably just as a non specific health supplement. But I don't think I took many things at all for any length of period pre cfs, I guess why would I. I do recall it being good for inflammation and its cheap. I will give it a crack,

 

[ZeroGravitas]

in large amounts, it does the exact reverse .... it creates oxidative stress and damages cellular structures....

Loh responded to me on Twitter, a year ago, to say the opposite, that small amounts have a prooxidant effect:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1517130992309391361

I'd used 1/4mg (or less) melatonin on and off for years, following a specialist prescription for my non-24-hour sleep. But got groggy/depression/fatigue next day from 1/2mg. Never tried higher. So I'd been thinking about trying a properly high dose, as she suggested. But aside from being very wary, I didn't know what dose or regiment to start at. Her protocol sheet I've seen is explicitly for acute Covid infection. And I haven't been accepted into her private Facebook group, yet.

Also, a Redditor warned me off trying high dose. In the comments of a post about this 2015 study that showed "high dose" melatonin (3mg, I think) appeared to increase bone mineral density (BMD) of the spine. Something I'm very interested in since developing osteoporosis (for no obvious reason).

Also, via that thread, I was linked to an article that put me onto 2013 information from an AI researcher/author I follow, who, unknown to me, had non-24-hour too (though merely 24.5h, vs my 25.6h cycle, currently). He apparently fixed it with low dose (0.2mg) 5-7 hours before bed! Way earlier than I think I've ever tried:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1631782266429898753

So now I'm torn between which type of protocol to try, heh. And am now pursuing LDN and a bunch of others supplement besides, too. Because: AuDHD, I guess.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

The information on the action of high-dose melationin came from Life Extension, tho I believe that now that melatonin is providing a steady income stream, I belive that they've changed their opinion.

But following the logic of the body, I think that we naturally produce somewhere in the range of 0.125 mgs and 0.25 mgs nightly. To massively dose with 50 - 500 mgs (!!!!) seems pretty dicey to me, and more like a fairly dangerous overreach of natural boundaries.

Still, it's your body, and anything that you believe is helping it is worth trying. But keep in mnd that melatonin is a hormone, and taking that much of it could have some pretty surprizing effects on other important hormones and their production ....

 

[cheeseater]

After 25 years of taking melatonin I have found the same 2mg dose I started out with still works fine.

High dose melatonin makes no sense. If you look deep enough into most any basic substance, like zinc, you will find it is necessary for good sleep. That does not mean taking excessive amounts of zinc (which is easy to do) will improve anything.

 

[heapsreal]

Loh responded to me on Twitter, a year ago, to say the opposite, that small amounts have a prooxidant effect:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1517130992309391361

I'd used 1/4mg (or less) melatonin on and off for years, following a specialist prescription for my non-24-hour sleep. But got groggy/depression/fatigue next day from 1/2mg. Never tried higher. So I'd been thinking about trying a properly high dose, as she suggested. But aside from being very wary, I didn't know what dose or regiment to start at. Her protocol sheet I've seen is explicitly for acute Covid infection. And I haven't been accepted into her private Facebook group, yet.

Also, a Redditor warned me off trying high dose. In the comments of a post about this 2015 study that showed "high dose" melatonin (3mg, I think) appeared to increase bone mineral density (BMD) of the spine. Something I'm very interested in since developing osteoporosis (for no obvious reason).

Also, via that thread, I was linked to an article that put me onto 2013 information from an AI researcher/author I follow, who, unknown to me, had non-24-hour too (though merely 24.5h, vs my 25.6h cycle, currently). He apparently fixed it with low dose (0.2mg) 5-7 hours before bed! Way earlier than I think I've ever tried:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1631782266429898753

So now I'm torn between which type of protocol to try, heh. And am now pursuing LDN and a bunch of others supplement besides, too. Because: AuDHD, I guess.

I think the body adjusts to anything we do to it, especially in cfsme so it seems. I had 10mg and 20mg strength tablets. I was using 60mg to 100mg with no ill effects. I was able to reduce my sleep meds on it but I found that as soon as the sun came up I'd be awake which is unusual for me.

But I've always had a whacky sleep cycle or cycles etc. End as for melatonin, I got lazy taking the high doses and would either take the 10mg or the 20mg tablet.

I have been taking my sleep meds at 9pm but mostly not falling asleep until close to midnight. For some reason I'm waking up at 2am and then 4 or 5am I'm ready to go to sleep, usually until about 9am. Also been having an afternoon nap for an hr.

So I was at the point where my I also wasn't using antihistamines for sleep either. So currently at the stage where I'm going to stop the melatonin for awhile as well as the antihistamines. Start taking my sleep meds later, maybe 11pm to hopefully help me sleep past that 2am period.

Have gone through similar periods before. I don't think my circadian rhythm likes going to sleep between 9-10pm and sleeping through. But 30yrs of shift work and cfsme 20yrs, has screwed it up, so I'm constantly adjusting.

 

[Judee]

He apparently fixed it with low dose (0.2mg) 5-7 hours before bed! Way earlier than I think I've ever tried:

Have you tried that? And if so, how is it working for you? Also how did you know when to take it? My sleep is allover the place now. I'm basically sleeping in 3 hour segments spread out through the day.

 

[ZeroGravitas]

Also how did you know when to take it?

I *was* planning to try this soon. I imported 300mcg melatonin capsules from Nootropics depot, ready...

But now I have acute Covid for first time. After a day or two of hypersomnia, I've gone polyphasic myself. Two sleeps per day.

If your sleep periods don't tend to aggregate, on their own, maybe try melatonin before one sleep to try and extend it, and build from there..? Then worry about rhythm timing later on.

I've gotten pretty good at forecasting my non-24 rhythm, by graphing meal times. But split sleep is just too chaotic, for me, so it has to be joined up first. Although, a few people swear by polyphasic. ‍♂

Have things improved for you since posting? Sorry I didn't manage to reply before.