My guess is that there's a subset of PWME who have more serious responses to immune activation events, or who have more serious chronic viral infections due to ME screwing up the immune systems. So, more PWME might show these deficiencies than 'healthy controls', but it's not the cause or answer to ME. I can imagine you finding a treatment that brings your serum level of these nutrients to normal, but not doing anything for your ME symptoms.
High-dose manganese: could it be an effective treatment for ME/CFS? (Ron Davis Research)
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My guess is that there's a subset of PWME who have more serious responses to immune activation events, or who have more serious chronic viral infections due to ME screwing up the immune systems. So, more PWME might show these deficiencies than 'healthy controls', but it's not the cause or answer to ME. I can imagine you finding a treatment that brings your serum level of these nutrients to normal, but not doing anything for your ME symptoms.
One of the references of this paper is this paper which i am trying to get through
Nutritional immunity: transition metals at the pathogen-host interface
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3875331/
I am starting to wonder if the symptoms of ME are caused by the body sequestering minerals away from pathogens in the body. Also if the on switch was left on then in some patients there is nothing that needs sequestering but its happening anyways.
Hi everyone, I became very sick a few months ago and I’m just starting to recover. Since the topic of manganese came up, I just wanted to share that I recently connected the dots that the black tea I’ve been drinking might have been supplying me manganese for many years. It seems my crashes and periods of feeling really terrible correspond to being off the tea.
The latest was just last week when I felt like my digestion grinded to a stop. I was nauseous, constipated, and felt like all the food was stuck in my upper abdomen and not moving. I was cold, clammy, and curled up on the couch in my sweater in the summer heat. My GP says that this is part of my depression.
I finally decided to have some of my favourite hot tea after a long time without regularly drinking it (I have been unable to digest liquidy foods since a few months ago due to a very serious h pylori infection).
I immediately felt my mind clear after drinking the tea. And then it felt like all my pores opened and released some heat. My skin went from clammy cold to normal. I think I even sweated a little, which rarely happens for me. It was like waking up from a bad dream. My digestive system started moving and even had a bowel movement that evening.
i know it’s impossible to know what exactly is in the tea, but I am fairly certain it’s manganese. The feeling is like the traditional Chinese medicine “liver fire” got quenched and the “wet heat” got eliminated when the bowels started moving (possibly bile release?).
Sorry for the long story, but in case if this helps anyone, or if anyone wants to try it out, the tea is Tetley English Breakfast. It’s usually around $5 for a big purple box at the supermarket. I steep a tea bag in 2 cups of water for at least 30min and drink it with whole milk or cream (note: drinking it black doesn’t give me the same effect). I believe the body will crave and enjoy foods that the body needs. For those comfortable doing so, this could possibly be a way to try out manganese to see how the body reacts before initiating supplements (that’s what I usually do for myself for other nutrients). I have tried taking manganese 12.5mg po bid in the past and felt minor energy boosts. I hope this helps!
The latest was just last week when I felt like my digestion grinded to a stop. I was nauseous, constipated, and felt like all the food was stuck in my upper abdomen and not moving. I was cold, clammy, and curled up on the couch in my sweater in the summer heat. My GP says that this is part of my depression.
I finally decided to have some of my favourite hot tea after a long time without regularly drinking it (I have been unable to digest liquidy foods since a few months ago due to a very serious h pylori infection).
I immediately felt my mind clear after drinking the tea. And then it felt like all my pores opened and released some heat. My skin went from clammy cold to normal. I think I even sweated a little, which rarely happens for me. It was like waking up from a bad dream. My digestive system started moving and even had a bowel movement that evening.
i know it’s impossible to know what exactly is in the tea, but I am fairly certain it’s manganese. The feeling is like the traditional Chinese medicine “liver fire” got quenched and the “wet heat” got eliminated when the bowels started moving (possibly bile release?).
Sorry for the long story, but in case if this helps anyone, or if anyone wants to try it out, the tea is Tetley English Breakfast. It’s usually around $5 for a big purple box at the supermarket. I steep a tea bag in 2 cups of water for at least 30min and drink it with whole milk or cream (note: drinking it black doesn’t give me the same effect). I believe the body will crave and enjoy foods that the body needs. For those comfortable doing so, this could possibly be a way to try out manganese to see how the body reacts before initiating supplements (that’s what I usually do for myself for other nutrients). I have tried taking manganese 12.5mg po bid in the past and felt minor energy boosts. I hope this helps!
Judee
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I love black tea and wish I could drink it but within a day of doing so I'm in a horrible crash that seems to affect my heart. It's one of the trigger foods that does that to me.
Someone mentioned earlier that Lyme uses Manganese. I also found some other articles on different bacteria that use it:
https://phys.org/news/2021-08-starving-pneumonia-causing-bacteria-favorite-food.html
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5638708/
That makes me wonder if there are others.
Edit: For those who react negatively to manganese maybe you could try Claritin to see if it would work as a sort of antidote:
https://www.lymedisease.org/claritin-lyme-balf-2/
??
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I thought I would try adding a little manganese to my daily limited supplements. Within 6 hours after 14mg I was feeling a deep flu-like ache and general cold-like symptoms. Backed off for a few days and then tried a 8mg dose - again within hours body-wide aches and the same sensation of immune activation - very unpleasant.
I wonder if we can consider that a strong indication you do have an active infection?
Fair enough.
I will report what my experience is when i get my hands on some Manganese.
If we could get a few dozen people to try manganese and let us know their dosage and result it could give us some clues.
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Violeta
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This link provides a list of symptoms caused by too much manganese. The way they find out what a homeopathic remedy cures is by overdosing on it and seeing what that causes.
http://www.homeoint.org/books/boericmm/m/mang-act.htm
You have to be very careful in supplementing manganese. ALS is one disease in which high amounts of manganese are found in the blood. I am not saying that taking manganese causes the high levels, it is more likely there is something wrong with the way the body is handling it. But taking it as a supplement could be dangerous.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1258/ebm.2012.011396
I guess watching for symptoms of Parkinson's when you take it, if you do decide to try it.
"Symptoms of manganese toxicity mimic those of Parkinson's disease with ..."
http://www.homeoint.org/books/boericmm/m/mang-act.htm
You have to be very careful in supplementing manganese. ALS is one disease in which high amounts of manganese are found in the blood. I am not saying that taking manganese causes the high levels, it is more likely there is something wrong with the way the body is handling it. But taking it as a supplement could be dangerous.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1258/ebm.2012.011396
I guess watching for symptoms of Parkinson's when you take it, if you do decide to try it.
"Symptoms of manganese toxicity mimic those of Parkinson's disease with ..."
I'd say that it's more complicated than that. There's all sorts of issues about nutrients being high in the serum but not able to get into the cells, or maybe accumulating in cells but not showing high levels in serum. So, the tests aren't necessarily going to reveal a problem, or they might show levels that aren't 'typical' but which are actually healthy for your specific body, which could result in making you sicker trying to fix a non-problem.
I did have a toxicology assay done. Only (IIRC) selenium and manganese were mildly elevated, and when I said that I'd been on a diet high in whole grains, he said that would explain it. I turned out to be a waste of time/money/effort, but I suppose it did rule out the possibility of heavy metal accumulation or other such things.
Rufous McKinney
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I seem to recall somebody around here in PR...found out they were highly sensitive to manganese...or that they were highly deficient....one of the other, Manganese was some big deal. Now who was that.....?
(more and more I'm unable to find threads I swear exist)
Me too. The search engine should telepathically know what I'm looking for.
I'm more frequently unable to find things in my home, but that may be because I've had less energy for putting things in their proper place, and for piling things on top of other things.
Judee
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Can you try some black tea like Kula mentioned or some other high manganese food first?
for piling things on top of other things.
My sister calls us "pile people" though she's one too even without ME.
An empty surface in my home is an endangered species...even the floor. (sigh) I try to get some peace about it but I'm also a neatnik wannabe. (sigh again)
Oh, well.
Edit: @Rufous McKinney, you're the one who taught me, "Oh, well." You said something about using it more and more and how saying it does help...way back in one of your posts that I cannot find right now.
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JES
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It says here that one liter (four mugs) of black tea contains around 1.8–5.2 mg Mn. That is not a lot compared to for example a standard multivitamin/mineral supplement, which typically contains 3 mg. I guess depending on the sort of black tea that may vary slightly, but it would make sense that one small teabag cannot contain much more of any single trace element. Teas and herbs are composed of hundreds of different compounds, so my suspicion here is that it could be something else in black tea that makes you feel better.
It's interesting, nevertheless. I seemed to notice moderate anti-inflammatory effects when I last trialed black tea, but I suspect it's due to some other property. Black tea goes through a fermentation or oxidation process unlike most other teas.
Violeta
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Yes, if it doesn't move, it has a pile of something on it.
I lack the energy to keep things straightened up, and have a hard time having peace about it, too.
Rufous McKinney
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I'm more frequently unable to find things in my home, but that may be because I've had less energy for putting things in their proper place, and for piling things on top of other things.
Organization and retrieval a second time are HUGE topics for me. And I don't have much stuff.
I'm just talking to my hippocampus these days, telling it to get BUSY and get CREATIVE and last night I ate celery with peanut butter in order to go CRUNCH on the celery: hello Hippocampus....
(neurogeneration is stimulated by crunchy foods! and chewing...and I'm thinking about a CHEWING GUM experiment)
Rufous McKinney
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wigglethemouse
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I drink black tea but my hair analysis showed low Mn.
Drinking black tea does seem to increase Mn intake, but not markers of Mn status or expression of Mn-dependent enzymes according to this 2005 study in a sample population of students and staff at Kings College London.
Influence of tea drinking on manganese intake, manganese status and leucocyte expression of MnSOD and cytosolic aminopeptidase P
https://www.nature.com/articles/1602260
Abstract
Objective:
Since black tea contains high levels of manganese (Mn), we investigated the relationship between dietary Mn intake, circulating Mn levels and leucocyte expression of two Mn-dependent enzymes in tea drinkers and non-tea drinkers.
Design:
We assessed Mn intakes (food frequency questionnaire), fasting whole blood and plasma Mn levels, and quantitative expression of peripheral blood mononuclear cell Mn-dependent superoxide dismutase (MnSOD) and cytosolic aminopeptidase-P (cAP-P).
Setting and subjects:
In total, 24 tea drinkers (>1 l black tea/day) and 28 non-tea drinkers were recruited from the staff and students of King's College London by circular email.
Results:
Dietary Mn intakes (mean (range)) were significantly lower (P<0.0001) in non tea drinkers (3.2 mg/day (0.5–6.5)) than tea drinkers (5.5 mg/day (2–12) or 10 mg/day (5–20) depending upon the value used for Mn levels of black tea). Whole blood, plasma Mn levels and expression of MnSOD and cAP-P did not differ between the groups. In a continuous analysis, whole blood Mn levels and expression of MnSOD correlated inversely but no other parameters associated with each other.
Conclusions:
Tea drinking is a major source of dietary Mn and intakes commonly exceed proposed adequate intake values of 1.8–2.3 mg Mn/day and, on occasion, exceed upper limits of 10–11 mg/day. Dietary Mn intake has little influence on markers of Mn status or expression of Mn-dependent enzymes. Fasting whole blood Mn levels and leucocyte expression of MnSOD could, together, be further investigated as markers of Mn status.
Drinking black tea does seem to increase Mn intake, but not markers of Mn status or expression of Mn-dependent enzymes according to this 2005 study in a sample population of students and staff at Kings College London.
Influence of tea drinking on manganese intake, manganese status and leucocyte expression of MnSOD and cytosolic aminopeptidase P
https://www.nature.com/articles/1602260
Abstract
Objective:
Since black tea contains high levels of manganese (Mn), we investigated the relationship between dietary Mn intake, circulating Mn levels and leucocyte expression of two Mn-dependent enzymes in tea drinkers and non-tea drinkers.
Design:
We assessed Mn intakes (food frequency questionnaire), fasting whole blood and plasma Mn levels, and quantitative expression of peripheral blood mononuclear cell Mn-dependent superoxide dismutase (MnSOD) and cytosolic aminopeptidase-P (cAP-P).
Setting and subjects:
In total, 24 tea drinkers (>1 l black tea/day) and 28 non-tea drinkers were recruited from the staff and students of King's College London by circular email.
Results:
Dietary Mn intakes (mean (range)) were significantly lower (P<0.0001) in non tea drinkers (3.2 mg/day (0.5–6.5)) than tea drinkers (5.5 mg/day (2–12) or 10 mg/day (5–20) depending upon the value used for Mn levels of black tea). Whole blood, plasma Mn levels and expression of MnSOD and cAP-P did not differ between the groups. In a continuous analysis, whole blood Mn levels and expression of MnSOD correlated inversely but no other parameters associated with each other.
Conclusions:
Tea drinking is a major source of dietary Mn and intakes commonly exceed proposed adequate intake values of 1.8–2.3 mg Mn/day and, on occasion, exceed upper limits of 10–11 mg/day. Dietary Mn intake has little influence on markers of Mn status or expression of Mn-dependent enzymes. Fasting whole blood Mn levels and leucocyte expression of MnSOD could, together, be further investigated as markers of Mn status.
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BrightCandle
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I have stopped with the high manganese now. I didn't run into any problems associated with taking 22mg, I certainly felt decent throughout and a bit better than baseline but nothing substantial.