Helminthic Therapy, the only thing to make a difference so far
- Thread starter bad1080
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so after my overdose of 5NA i waited for the recommended 3 months before my next dose. but when that was over the supplier was on holiday so i had to wait even longer. then the first shipment arrived dead (probably due to cold temperatures) so i had to wait longer still. by the time my replacement shipment arrived it was over 4 months since my last dose and i felt myself slipping into severe again.
i put them on last friday and by day two i already noticed an improvement again (also some side-effects but very manageable). i can breathe more easily after waking up in the morning, my sinuses don't feel clogged. i feel more evened out, it is easier to relax and to go to sleep. today i had an appetite which is rare for me. yesterday it felt like i had more energy but two trips to the kitchen and i was already tuckered out again. it really feels like something my body needs, i feel more complete with helminths on board.
i put them on last friday and by day two i already noticed an improvement again (also some side-effects but very manageable). i can breathe more easily after waking up in the morning, my sinuses don't feel clogged. i feel more evened out, it is easier to relax and to go to sleep. today i had an appetite which is rare for me. yesterday it felt like i had more energy but two trips to the kitchen and i was already tuckered out again. it really feels like something my body needs, i feel more complete with helminths on board.
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i recently came across an article about heavy metals in dark chocolate and since i used it to substitute for actual sweets (and because i read there something in it that's only found in red wine (
https://www.canceredinstitute.org/heavy-metals-in-dark-chocolate.html
edit: no it wasn't phenol:
What is in dark chocolate and wine?
Tannins. Tannins are polyphenolic compounds found in both wine (especially red wines) and dark chocolate
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Hi there,
I also have experimented with NA helminths (and others like HDC and TSO) for long covid/cfs. It works, there's no question it works. It moves the needle for me more than anything else, more than LDN which is the other effective drug I have found. More than special diets, more than anything. Here are my personal notes and experience:
ME/CFS people _cannot_ tolerate even normal/low doses of hookworm like the average user. 3 is the max and 2 is a sweet spot for me. I was experiencing near total CFS remission after my first dose a year and a half ago, however I promptly killed them with ginger/coconut milk by mistake. I have since worked with the mods to improve the "foods" part of the wiki readability by quite a lot. Since that dose it's been harder for my body to tolerate them and the side effects have grown more severe with each dose. I have taken a long break now from NA, using HDC in the interim which are effective but much less so than NA, albeit with next to no side effects and a much faster action. I'm hoping to start again now with less side effects after the break and from co-hosting HDC. Co-hosting HDC/TSO is a common strategy for reducing intolerable NA sides according to the wiki.
Unfortunately, with my immune response (side effects) to NA increasing, it seemed like I was failing to keep them alive the full "three month" standard lifespan and this was turning into a vicious cycle where each re-dose was less tolerable, not more. You and I @bad1080 must have something very similar wrong with us! I am excited to try your shorter dosing cycle this time, that is a brilliant idea and something I considered but you pushed me over the edge. Why not re-dose while the worms are still working their best. Excellent idea.
Anyway, if you would like to get in touch to share notes or anything more directly please let me know. I am excited to have found your post and this website.
PS I see also by creeping your profile that you take your liquid LDN in very small doses as well as you don't like the side effects of larger doses. So many similarities!
I also have experimented with NA helminths (and others like HDC and TSO) for long covid/cfs. It works, there's no question it works. It moves the needle for me more than anything else, more than LDN which is the other effective drug I have found. More than special diets, more than anything. Here are my personal notes and experience:
ME/CFS people _cannot_ tolerate even normal/low doses of hookworm like the average user. 3 is the max and 2 is a sweet spot for me. I was experiencing near total CFS remission after my first dose a year and a half ago, however I promptly killed them with ginger/coconut milk by mistake. I have since worked with the mods to improve the "foods" part of the wiki readability by quite a lot. Since that dose it's been harder for my body to tolerate them and the side effects have grown more severe with each dose. I have taken a long break now from NA, using HDC in the interim which are effective but much less so than NA, albeit with next to no side effects and a much faster action. I'm hoping to start again now with less side effects after the break and from co-hosting HDC. Co-hosting HDC/TSO is a common strategy for reducing intolerable NA sides according to the wiki.
Unfortunately, with my immune response (side effects) to NA increasing, it seemed like I was failing to keep them alive the full "three month" standard lifespan and this was turning into a vicious cycle where each re-dose was less tolerable, not more. You and I @bad1080 must have something very similar wrong with us! I am excited to try your shorter dosing cycle this time, that is a brilliant idea and something I considered but you pushed me over the edge. Why not re-dose while the worms are still working their best. Excellent idea.
Anyway, if you would like to get in touch to share notes or anything more directly please let me know. I am excited to have found your post and this website.
PS I see also by creeping your profile that you take your liquid LDN in very small doses as well as you don't like the side effects of larger doses. So many similarities!
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I should probably clarify: It works _for me_. I wouldn't want to make my first move on this forum to be giving medical advice. It definitely isn't a perfect therapy and probably wouldn't work for everyone, and I'm not advocating anyone try it. Just saying how effective it is for me.
from what i understand the side-effects are much diminished if the last dose is still alive when you redose (which is something another species also could take care of as they are likely overlapping in their cycles - that's if you can tolerate them). a larger dose would also take care of it (as it is unlikely they die off all at once from natural causes) but that's not an option for people who can't tolerate a larger dose.
i had increased side-effects after i had to wait the full 3 months because of my overdose. there are people who are "helminth permissive" (see below) and i guess i am the opposite (something causes them to die off much faster), but what's causing it idk (an immune reaction or something else?). when i was on my increased dosing schedule i barely noticed it when i redosed, some minor gastro-issues for a day or two and the itch from applying, that was it. it was the main reason why i decided to try 5NA, as i thought my system might have adjusted somewhat to tolerate them.
what side-effects do you experience, the stuff mentioned on the wiki or something out of the ordinary?
if you are on discord we can talk there but i think keeping the discussion in the open and findable for others is important.
from: https://www.helminthictherapywiki.o...thic_therapy#Doctors_as_helminthic_therapists
there are reports from people who had the same dose doing its thing for over a year
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Thanks for the quick reply. Happy to keep talking here.
For side effects I mostly have persistent headaches at the three and seven week marks, corresponding exactly with the eosinophil graph from the wiki. That is by far the biggest issue. It's also the main symptom of my long COVID PEM when I crash. Neuroinflammation, I guess.
I do think the general heightened immune response to the worms is completely typical of people with chronic fatigue. Figuring out a dosing strategy that works could help the whole community so it's really good to know you figured something out.
Another benefit of the worms is that they completely solve my long-standing IBS / food intolerance to FODMAPs when they are going. Even the HDC alone are really good for that though less effective for the PEM.
Do you have long COVID or are you a chronic fatigue suffer from another source? Has anything else moved the needle for you in terms of therapies? Only asking because we seem somehow in a very similar boat with our therapy responses and dosing. I would be completely unsurprised if we shared the exact same disease mechanism or some allele on a key gene or something. CFS is a fairly broad seeming disorder and different things seem to work for different people.
For side effects I mostly have persistent headaches at the three and seven week marks, corresponding exactly with the eosinophil graph from the wiki. That is by far the biggest issue. It's also the main symptom of my long COVID PEM when I crash. Neuroinflammation, I guess.
I do think the general heightened immune response to the worms is completely typical of people with chronic fatigue. Figuring out a dosing strategy that works could help the whole community so it's really good to know you figured something out.
Another benefit of the worms is that they completely solve my long-standing IBS / food intolerance to FODMAPs when they are going. Even the HDC alone are really good for that though less effective for the PEM.
Do you have long COVID or are you a chronic fatigue suffer from another source? Has anything else moved the needle for you in terms of therapies? Only asking because we seem somehow in a very similar boat with our therapy responses and dosing. I would be completely unsurprised if we shared the exact same disease mechanism or some allele on a key gene or something. CFS is a fairly broad seeming disorder and different things seem to work for different people.
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Oh and did you figure out how to incubate? I always wanted to but I was always concerned I had too shortlived of a colony or too low of a dose to have enough guaranteed males and females. I didn't try because of this but I'd be open to it.
I feel that incubation in the long term has the potential to breed for a much better CFS-adapted or individually adapted organism. The NA I was getting from Au Naturel never seemed like a good fit for my biome.
I feel that incubation in the long term has the potential to breed for a much better CFS-adapted or individually adapted organism. The NA I was getting from Au Naturel never seemed like a good fit for my biome.
i don't have headaches as (major) side-effect (maybe a day or so), so idk what helps with those, sorry.
mine is not covid related, i am not exactly sure what caused it but i suspect either measles or chicken pox to be the culprit. i had both in quick succession when i was a kid and was never the same since.
i am experimenting with LDN atm. because it gave me tinnitus as a side-effect i am currently titrating down from 0.25mg to find out if there's a dose where i still get benefits but no tinnitus.
i had a good day here and there after i started some supplements (like vit.c) but nothing permanent or repeatable (so it might've been spontaneous and just a coincidence, who knows).
THC + CBD helps me sleep a little better and i microdose psilocybin for depression and suicidal ideation (antidepressants didn't work for me or made me worse).
i wanted to but i haven't yet pretty much for the same reasons and missing energy.
from what i understand there's not much genetic variability with helminths, which may be bad for what you wanna do but it is also good because you don't have to worry about "inbreeding" when incubating from just a small colony.
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> from what i understand there's not much genetic variability with helminths, which may be bad for what you wanna do but it is also good because you don't have to worry about "inbreeding" when incubating from just a small colony.
I've heard this as well but I don't buy it. I think this is one of those things people tell each other online but which doesn't have a basis. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11412366/
A good example of just one NA gene differentially studied showing significantly different alleles between populations, and that's just in one region of the world.
I'm of the opinion that the first person who figures out how to breed NA intentionally for benefits and potentially diminishing side effects will create an even more revolutionary organism. As it is, I'd really love to try a different wild type (particularly from Thailand as the coconut and ginger intolerance is annoying) or _at least_ from a different host. If I had the energy to go to Thailand and try to pay rural doctors and their patients to give me infected stool samples, I'd do it. Acquiring a wild-type would not be difficult, people come up positive for NA every day, all over the world.
As for side effects, I have found one treatment through the community that is incredibly and mysteriously effective: Vitamin D mega-doses. 50k IU of Vitamin D is only safe to take about once a week, especially if you go for max absorption by combining it with fat, but it is a highly effective short-term treatment when side effects become a big drag.
I've heard this as well but I don't buy it. I think this is one of those things people tell each other online but which doesn't have a basis. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11412366/
A good example of just one NA gene differentially studied showing significantly different alleles between populations, and that's just in one region of the world.
I'm of the opinion that the first person who figures out how to breed NA intentionally for benefits and potentially diminishing side effects will create an even more revolutionary organism. As it is, I'd really love to try a different wild type (particularly from Thailand as the coconut and ginger intolerance is annoying) or _at least_ from a different host. If I had the energy to go to Thailand and try to pay rural doctors and their patients to give me infected stool samples, I'd do it. Acquiring a wild-type would not be difficult, people come up positive for NA every day, all over the world.
As for side effects, I have found one treatment through the community that is incredibly and mysteriously effective: Vitamin D mega-doses. 50k IU of Vitamin D is only safe to take about once a week, especially if you go for max absorption by combining it with fat, but it is a highly effective short-term treatment when side effects become a big drag.
could be, especially since i now can't find where i got this from...
yes, vit.d helped me with my brainfog at the beginning. i just do normal daily doses and have been for years.
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Vitamin D in small regular doses certainly helps in general. The effect of taking 50k iu is altogether something different as far as side effect mitigation. You're probably taking between 1 and 2k iu. 50k is a different beast.
something against the theory of small genetic variability (but this goes over my head): https://parasite.wormbase.org/Necator_americanus_prjna1007425/Info/Index/
(was posted on the HT discord)
(was posted on the HT discord)
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WARNING: Several years ago I spoke to the UK seller of Helminthic worms (I can’t remember the type)
As soon as he found out I had ME/CFS he said he wouldn’t advise anyone with it to use Helminthic Therapy (from human worms) because he “had ME/CFS patients become violently ill from them” .
He did however put me onto a seller of pig worms. Apparently they are less hard on humans as only survive in the gut 2 weeks (which means repeated dosing). I spoke to that seller and he agreed ME/CFS patients didn’t get sick on the same type of pig worms.
I never went ahead because it was expensive and takes 12 months to know if it works or not.
Has anyone had that sickness experience with human worms?
Or has anyone tried and had success with pig worms instead?
As soon as he found out I had ME/CFS he said he wouldn’t advise anyone with it to use Helminthic Therapy (from human worms) because he “had ME/CFS patients become violently ill from them” .
He did however put me onto a seller of pig worms. Apparently they are less hard on humans as only survive in the gut 2 weeks (which means repeated dosing). I spoke to that seller and he agreed ME/CFS patients didn’t get sick on the same type of pig worms.
I never went ahead because it was expensive and takes 12 months to know if it works or not.
Has anyone had that sickness experience with human worms?
Or has anyone tried and had success with pig worms instead?
that is likely meant for a regular dose (10 or more), which is why PwME should start as low as they can with NA (3 or even lower). see https://www.helminthictherapywiki.o...equire_a_modified_approach_to_helminth_dosing
for more information. for me 3NA seems to be the upper limit i can tolerate.
yes, TSO (https://www.helminthictherapywiki.org/wiki/Self-treating_with_TSO) can be used to "prime the system" for another species like NA but they come with their own side-effect profile and -like you mentioned- costs which is why i didn't try it.
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Exactly, this is from back when NA doses were bigger and they weren't as sure how to deal with CFS yet. Taking two or three NA as we do now with CFS is way more doable. It still is a bit of a drag compared to how other people seem to experience the worm side effects, but the benefits are still there so it is worth it.
You're asking about other species with less side effects, and you can see me talking about that above. I take HDC for that reason. They don't work as well but they work faster, sometimes even after a few days, and with almost no side effects compared to NA so that's a reasonable starting point. People that are reactive to NA (such as CFS patients) sometimes chain taking NA off of first taking HDC or TSO (the pig one) to sort of level their way into it by taking both until the NA really takes over. HDC is also a good way to prove to yourself that the worms work (they do for me but you have to feel it to believe it). It's not on the same level of taking NA, though. Wow, is night and day once NA kicks in and you're through the side effects. Here you can see some people talking about how they think establishing another species and then NA is the way to go:
https://www.helminthictherapywiki.o...peutic_helminth#Hosting_multiple_worm_species
it seems like i get more out of the initial reaction from applying the NA than i get from hosting them in my jejunum (the part of the small intestine where they live). because i took my last dose on friday and today i was taking a small walk in the park (without feeling completely depleted afterwards), where last week i had trouble opening a bottle of water.
i think this is the article where it says "breaking the skin is enough for a type 2 immune reaction" (not a direct quote, just from the top of my head): https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciimmunol.aat1604 (if it is not i forgot where i got it from)
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Yeah the bounce has always been very powerful for me. The first bounce I had I could literally run around and I cleaned my entire house. It was nuts.
I also tended to get sustained benefits between week three and week 10 or so.
I also tended to get sustained benefits between week three and week 10 or so.
if you get benefits till week 10 i'd go down to that for my next dose. i went down by two weeks (from the recommended 12 weeks/3 months) each time until i hit a spot where i wouldn't lose benefits and that's how i arrived at ~6 weeks.
let me ask you this, do you hit a spot where resting feels different to you? i noticed this maybe not every dose but definitely more than once and it is quite difficult to explain. it feels like i am able to relax, the bed feels more comfy, it's not this "i rest my body here for a while but it'll feel pretty much the same when i lay down as when i get back up" anymore, like sleep is actually refreshing for the first time in forever again. i experienced this today (on day 5) but my fatigue levels are up compared to the first 3 days, it feels like a full body fatigue (heavy) but i am able to push through to an extent without repercussions.
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Sorry for the slow response. This is basically how I feel when the worms are working but also giving me side effects. Like it feels sort of tiring and sick still but it doesn't feel like my nervous system is messed up and my PEM gets less severe.