Violeta
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Mary, I am so glad you found something to help your insomnia! It's so great that it helps lower your blood pressure, too!
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Hawthorn berries helping a LOT with sleep
- Thread starter Mary
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datadragon
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Glad you found something that is helping you Mary. Type II insomnia, characterized by falling asleep easily but awakening frequently throughout the night is a classical sign of magnesium deficiency. Normally Magnesium is a first line suggestion when waking up in the middle of the night and it lowers blood pressure, lowers inflammation as well. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3703169/ Obviously avoid forms like chloride or malate that enhance energy if taking at night to help sleep.
Zinc is the first thing I mention when people have trouble falling asleep even when sleepy according to the latest research I have but thats not what you are saying. People who were missing the SHANK3 gene and mice that lacked part of the gene had difficulty falling asleep even when sleepy which can occur also with zinc deficiency and high inflammation levels (NLRP3 over activation). Shank3 is an important modulator of sleep and clock gene expression.
https://elifesciences.org/articles/42819 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5974951/
The patent is on 1mg or less of Melatonin by MIT, because Professor Wurtman discovered that small doses of melatonin (0.3 MILLIgrams) (.3mg = 300 mcg micrograms) worked better. 300 mcg not milligrams versions of life extension are on places like amazon. https://news.mit.edu/2001/melatonin-1017 When the melatonin receptors in the brain are exposed to too much of the hormone, they become unresponsive. I've read that occurs in about 3 days. As a result, many people don't think melatonin works at all. To get around paying for the patented version, companies sell the higher doses but these many find do not work well especially trying to take it more than just a few times in a row. Of course it may work well in certain situations like inflammation and infection in higher doses taken short term only during that period, but maybe should be avoided for preventative use when not in those states (except the very low dose for sleep as needed).
At higher doses, Melatonin seems it can inhibit the activity of the serotonin transporter and cause constipation. Melatonin, produced in the gastrointestinal tract, influences gut motility. The reported effects of melatonin on GI motility seem to be dose dependent, because administration of pharmacological doses of melatonin seems to decrease motility and increase colonic transit time, whereas melatonin in lower concentrations seems to increase motility and decrease colonic transit time meaning high doses can increase constipation but low dose does not. https://www.researchgate.net/public...toms_in_Young_Adults_Seeking_Psychiatric_Care Most doctors I read think it was not possible but ehealthme mentioned constipation as a side effect. https://www.ehealthme.com/ds/melatonin/constipation
Zinc is the first thing I mention when people have trouble falling asleep even when sleepy according to the latest research I have but thats not what you are saying. People who were missing the SHANK3 gene and mice that lacked part of the gene had difficulty falling asleep even when sleepy which can occur also with zinc deficiency and high inflammation levels (NLRP3 over activation). Shank3 is an important modulator of sleep and clock gene expression.
https://elifesciences.org/articles/42819 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5974951/
The patent is on 1mg or less of Melatonin by MIT, because Professor Wurtman discovered that small doses of melatonin (0.3 MILLIgrams) (.3mg = 300 mcg micrograms) worked better. 300 mcg not milligrams versions of life extension are on places like amazon. https://news.mit.edu/2001/melatonin-1017 When the melatonin receptors in the brain are exposed to too much of the hormone, they become unresponsive. I've read that occurs in about 3 days. As a result, many people don't think melatonin works at all. To get around paying for the patented version, companies sell the higher doses but these many find do not work well especially trying to take it more than just a few times in a row. Of course it may work well in certain situations like inflammation and infection in higher doses taken short term only during that period, but maybe should be avoided for preventative use when not in those states (except the very low dose for sleep as needed).
At higher doses, Melatonin seems it can inhibit the activity of the serotonin transporter and cause constipation. Melatonin, produced in the gastrointestinal tract, influences gut motility. The reported effects of melatonin on GI motility seem to be dose dependent, because administration of pharmacological doses of melatonin seems to decrease motility and increase colonic transit time, whereas melatonin in lower concentrations seems to increase motility and decrease colonic transit time meaning high doses can increase constipation but low dose does not. https://www.researchgate.net/public...toms_in_Young_Adults_Seeking_Psychiatric_Care Most doctors I read think it was not possible but ehealthme mentioned constipation as a side effect. https://www.ehealthme.com/ds/melatonin/constipation
Mary
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Yes - I'm still stunned by how well I'm sleeping and that my BP has gone down - couldn't ask for anything more out of a cheap bottle of herbs!
Mary
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Hi @datadragon - thanks for your lengthy response. (btw, here's a posting tip - it's a good idea to tag a member in a post so they will get an alert that you're responding to them. To tag someone, just put the "@" sign in front of their name like I did with you above or like this: @Mary 
)
About magnesium deficiency - I forgot to add that I've been taking lots of magnesium glycinate for many years and RBC testing shows that my intracellular levels are good - right now I'm taking 800 mg a day in divided doses.
I did learn a few years ago via hair analysis that my calcium/magnesium ratio was very badly skewed in favor of calcium (though I was still taking 800 mg of mag glyc) and was told to cut out all calcium, even in foods, for awhile. My insomnia at that time was quite bad. Cutting out the calcium helped a lot but was not the whole answer. Earlier this year found out I was taking too much calcium again, plus taking it at night, so now I take half of what I was, and taking it with breakfast and lunch, and doing better.
Another factor in insomnia can be high nighttime cortisol. It causes insomnia that nothing would touch for me until I got my high cortisol dealt with. This was back in the early 2000's. I was told to take Seriphos (phosphorylated serine by Interplexus, which is NOT the same as phosphatidyl serine, which is much less effective). I initially had to take 8 capsules a day (discovered through careful titration) - which is a very high dose, but it's what I needed, but was gradually able to cut the dose over several weeks/a few months. Now occasionally I need to take it though in a much smaller dose. Another important thing I learned was that Seriphos worked best when taken in the morning (I took two 4-cap doses on an empty stomach). It didn't make me tired during the day but did calm my system down so that I dealt with stress better, and lowered my cortisol at night.
I have read that zinc is important for sleep and I take it faithfully.
About melatonin - I've taken it for many years. I have read about the small doses being more effective, and I've read that some do well on very high doses. I think I probably fall in the middle somewhere but right now don't have the inclination to spend much time on it. I'm doing well with the hawthorn, better than almost anything I've tried.
I did discover several years ago that niacin (the kind that makes you flush and NOT time-release - time-release niacin has been linked to liver damage) helped me fall asleep more quickly. I don't remember where or how I learned it but have been taking it ever since, and sometimes take it in the middle of the night too. I've learned to welcome the flush because I usually fall asleep more quickly afterwards, if I haven't accidentally ingested MSG (or any of its relations) or fish oil at night or too much calcium or B-6 at night, etc. etc. etc.! Yeah, I know B-6 helps some with sleep but taken at night gives me insomnia so I have to check any sleep preparations or combos for B-6. And the list goes on. Thanks again!
)About magnesium deficiency - I forgot to add that I've been taking lots of magnesium glycinate for many years and RBC testing shows that my intracellular levels are good - right now I'm taking 800 mg a day in divided doses.
I did learn a few years ago via hair analysis that my calcium/magnesium ratio was very badly skewed in favor of calcium (though I was still taking 800 mg of mag glyc) and was told to cut out all calcium, even in foods, for awhile. My insomnia at that time was quite bad. Cutting out the calcium helped a lot but was not the whole answer. Earlier this year found out I was taking too much calcium again, plus taking it at night, so now I take half of what I was, and taking it with breakfast and lunch, and doing better.
Another factor in insomnia can be high nighttime cortisol. It causes insomnia that nothing would touch for me until I got my high cortisol dealt with. This was back in the early 2000's. I was told to take Seriphos (phosphorylated serine by Interplexus, which is NOT the same as phosphatidyl serine, which is much less effective). I initially had to take 8 capsules a day (discovered through careful titration) - which is a very high dose, but it's what I needed, but was gradually able to cut the dose over several weeks/a few months. Now occasionally I need to take it though in a much smaller dose. Another important thing I learned was that Seriphos worked best when taken in the morning (I took two 4-cap doses on an empty stomach). It didn't make me tired during the day but did calm my system down so that I dealt with stress better, and lowered my cortisol at night.
I have read that zinc is important for sleep and I take it faithfully.
About melatonin - I've taken it for many years. I have read about the small doses being more effective, and I've read that some do well on very high doses. I think I probably fall in the middle somewhere but right now don't have the inclination to spend much time on it. I'm doing well with the hawthorn, better than almost anything I've tried.
I did discover several years ago that niacin (the kind that makes you flush and NOT time-release - time-release niacin has been linked to liver damage) helped me fall asleep more quickly. I don't remember where or how I learned it but have been taking it ever since, and sometimes take it in the middle of the night too. I've learned to welcome the flush because I usually fall asleep more quickly afterwards, if I haven't accidentally ingested MSG (or any of its relations) or fish oil at night or too much calcium or B-6 at night, etc. etc. etc.! Yeah, I know B-6 helps some with sleep but taken at night gives me insomnia so I have to check any sleep preparations or combos for B-6. And the list goes on. Thanks again!
I've found B-6 is potassium sparing so if I have high potassium in the evening it can keep me awake longer. If I have low potassium it can help me sleep. Not sure if it works the same for others but it's an idea.
Mary
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@L'engle - Interesting! I found the opposite to be true for me, if my potassium is low in the evening, it interferes with my sleep. I don't think I ever have high potassium! How do you tell when yours is high?
I can't sleep if it's low either (which I get from b12). High potassium feels similar. I think I've had problems with storage of minerals so they end up being high at times (thanks lithium orotate for that gift that keeps on giving). It's similar to low potassium except it goes away from salt or goes away on its own. (except for people who don't believe in stuff like that )
)
Tammy
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Great news Mary! Isn't it wonderful when you find something that actually helps?! I bought some Hawthorn not too long ago for borderline high B/P but havn't tried it yet. Occassionally it gets too high and my GP has wanted me to go on meds but so far I have declined. Definitely going to try the Hawthorn! Also my pulse seems to run kind of high so I will be curious if it also helps with that. In addition I hope it helps with the quality of sleep. I have always been able to fall asleep with no problems but the quality of sleeps sucks.
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Mary
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@ Thanks Tammy! I hope the Hawthorn helps you. I'm sure you know that not all brands are the same, I tried it in the past without good results but the brand I'm now taking, Now foods Hawthorn berry 540 mg, seems to be a good one
Mary
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Whoops, didn't do the tag right above! . Retagging you here: @Tammy
For anyone who's curious, the reason I didn't re-tag Tammy in my post above is that if you are editing a post you've already submitted, new tags in the edited post won't work. Tags only work when you first submit a post
. Retagging you here: @TammyFor anyone who's curious, the reason I didn't re-tag Tammy in my post above is that if you are editing a post you've already submitted, new tags in the edited post won't work. Tags only work when you first submit a post
Tammy
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The one I purchased is by Gaia herbs and if I don't see any results, I'll definitely try the one by NOW FOODS.
sb4
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@Mary is Hawthorn berry still working well for you?
Mary
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Wayne
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Hi @Mary -- I've been meaning to mention that I recently started regularly using a hand held massager (similar to this one). I started using it because of some pain and stiffness in various parts of my body, especially my lower back. I discovered that when I use it all over my body for 5-10 minutes, there was much less stiffness in my body when I got up in the morning. It also seems to modestly improve my sleep quality!