Has Anyone Ever Tried a Gallbladder Flush?

[Dufresne]

I agree with Kina. I derived no discernible long-term benefit from liver flushes. That said, I do recall one person posting about how they recovered from what they believed was ME/CFS following a series of flushes.

Those weird 'stones' do come out for at least a time in most people. Crack a green one open and you'll see it's bright green the whole way through. It's bile. Could it be these things are formed in the GI tract during the flush? Perhaps, but that doesn't explain why we produce fewer and fewer until they no longer appear. That's what gets me.

These 'stones' can come in a variety of colours: red, green, tan, black... The notion that they're saponified olive oil doesn't ring true for me based on the assortment of colours. The red and black ones were the really small ones; perhaps up to the size of a peppercorn, but mostly smaller. I didn't break any of these open unfortunately so I can't attest to their consistency. As I said the bright green ones are obviously bile. These can be considerably larger, but not necessarily.

I suggest anyone really interested try a flush. Of course this wouldn't prove anything other than these things can come out of you too, but this may alter your perspective on the matter. It's still a puzzle to me.

 

[Sushi]

I suggest anyone really interested try a flush.

Way back when, I did a couple of these at the urging of a naturopath. I'd caution that it can be a very difficult experience--it really seemed to stress my body not to mention the awful cramps and other side effects. I felt somewhat better after one of them and somewhat worse after the other.

I wouldn't do another one though.

Sushi

 

[Dufresne]

Hi Dufresne,

You are correct that intrahepatic stones do exist. It is a rare condition in western cultures but more prevalent in the East Asia. 90 percent of these stones are made of calcium. It appears these stones generally arise in a diseased liver and may promote cholangiocarcinoma. I don't believe these stones can be removed via a "liver flush". I assume you are not talking about the benefits of liver flush concerning theses unusual liver stones.

Best,
Gary

Hi Gary,
I'm not exactly sure what I'm talking about either, other than there is this phenomenon of stone-like substances coming out in a flush. It's obvious to me that many of these are mostly made up of bile. If they're formed in the GI tract by some sort of chemical reaction of gastric juices and epsom salt, I could accept that. However it's hard to believe this when you look at these things. Then after a number of these flushes they cease to appear.

 

[lansbergen]

Hi Gary,
I'm not exactly sure what I'm talking about either, other than there is this phenomenon of stone-like substances coming out in a flush. It's obvious to me that many of these are mostly made up of bile. If they're formed in the GI tract by some sort of chemical reaction of gastric juices and epsom salt, I could accept that. However it's hard to believe this when you look at these things. Then after a number of these flushes they cease to appear.

I have not seen this but in the acute fases of the infection I suspect and have watched in animals, one of the symptoms was a greenish haze on the faces and it looked as if the fat was not digested enough. After that they did not poop for a few days (probably obstipation).

 

[Dufresne]

Hi Dufresne,

You are correct that intrahepatic stones do exist. It is a rare condition in western cultures but more prevalent in the East Asia. 90 percent of these stones are made of calcium. It appears these stones generally arise in a diseased liver and may promote cholangiocarcinoma. I don't believe these stones can be removed via a "liver flush". I assume you are not talking about the benefits of liver flush concerning theses unusual liver stones.

Best,
Gary

So stones can physically form in the liver.

I understand that they tend to find these stones in diseased livers. It's probably that they have reason to look in these diseased livers that they find stones. What if stones aren't always associated with disease, would we ever know about them?

And as we with ME/CFS, chronic Lyme Disease, or fibromyalgia well know, something doesn't medically exist unless a) there's apparent incontrovertible disease, or b) they manage to develop a drug to sell to us.

I know with certainty that the medical establishment has gotten a few things wrong, things that have affected me directly. It's because of this and the fact that I've seen these stones that I attempt to argue the other side of this debate. It's not ideological and I don't mean any disrespect, I'm just trying to get as close to the bottom of it that I (we) can.

 

[acer2000]

Its also possible that an increase in bile flow (due to the ingestion of a large amount of fat) alters the GI micro biome in a way that reduces symptoms.

 

[Hip]

@Dufresne
As mentioned earlier, bile will be released into the intestines when you consume a large quantity of oil, as bile is required to help digest this oil. Thus in your intestines, you will have a mixture of bile and olive oil.

So you might consider performing a simple experiment to see if bile and olive oil, when mixed together in a container, can create the sort of "stones" that are seen after a gallbladder flush.

It's easy to get hold of some bile, since you can buy freeze-dried ox bile as a dietary supplement (see here).

To perform such an experiment, you would first reconstitute this dried ox bile powder back into a liquid form by adding a bit of water. Then you would mix this ox bile liquid with some olive oil in a cup or other container. You would need to keep this mixture at a temperature of around 37ªC, which is body temperature. You would then need to agitate this mixture every now and then to simulate peristalsis in the intestines — stirring the mixture every 15 minutes should be fine. If you then observed similar "stones" forming within your mixture over say a 12 hour period, you will have demonstrated that a bile and olive oil mixture on its own can produce these "stones".

 

[Dufresne]

@Dufresne
As mentioned earlier, bile will be released into the intestines when you consume a large quantity of oil, as bile is required to help digest this oil. Thus in your intestines, you will have a mixture of bile and olive oil.

So you might consider performing a simple experiment to see if bile and olive oil, when mixed together in a container, can create the sort of "stones" that are seen after a gallbladder flush.

It's easy to get hold of some bile, since you can buy freeze-dried ox bile as a dietary supplement (see here).

To perform such an experiment, you would first reconstitute this dried ox bile powder back into a liquid form by adding a bit of water. Then you would mix this ox bile liquid with some olive oil in a cup or other container. You would need to keep this mixture at a temperature of around 37ªC, which is body temperature. You would then need to agitate this mixture every now and then to simulate peristalsis in the intestines — stirring the mixture every 15 minutes should be fine. If you then observed similar "stones" forming within your mixture over say a 12 hour period, you will have demonstrated that a bile and olive oil mixture on its own can produce these "stones".

Though you'd probably want to include epsom salt too.

I've conducted such an experiment. However instead of simulating peristalsis and setting up an external environment of 37C, I used my actual GI tract and followed the recommended timing of the protocol. The experiment resembled the liver flush in all conceivable ways. No stones were produced.

 

[Butydoc]

So stones can physically form in the liver.

I understand that they tend to find these stones in diseased livers. It's probably that they have reason to look in these diseased livers that they find stones. What if stones aren't always associated with disease, would we ever know about them?

And as we with ME/CFS, chronic Lyme Disease, or fibromyalgia well know, something doesn't medically exist unless a) there's apparent incontrovertible disease, or b) they manage to develop a drug to sell to us.

I know with certainty that the medical establishment has gotten a few things wrong, things that have affected me directly. It's because of this and the fact that I've seen these stones that I attempt to argue the other side of this debate. It's not ideological and I don't mean any disrespect, I'm just trying to get as close to the bottom of it that I (we) can.

Hi Dufrense,

I understand your mistrust of doctors with this disease. Basically no one really understands the mechanism nor proven treatment for CFS/ME. Since allopathic medicine really hasn't helped most people who have this disease except for a handful of CFS/ME physicians, alternative types of therapy are sought out by people affected by this disease. My problem is that most of these alternative therapies really don't make physiologic sense to me and are unlikely to lead to a cure. Liver flushes, coffee enemas, structured water, etc really don't make sense at least to a allopathic practitioner. This doesn't mean that some of these therapies can't work, but maybe by a different mechanism them originally thought. That being said, I feel that progress in unlocking the mysteries of CFS/ME will probably come from basic science and medical researchers.

Best,
Gary

 

[Hip]

I've conducted such an experiment. However instead of simulating peristalsis and setting up an external environment of 37C, I used my actual GI tract and followed the recommended timing of the protocol. The experiment resembled the liver flush in all conceivable ways. No stones were produced.

What you are trying to say is that your first few flushes produced "stones", but the subsequent ones did not.

However, things in your gut changed between the first few flushes and the subsequent ones. So that is not really a controlled experiment.

Think about it: people who take these flushes often report that their digestion significantly improves. Quite possibly the improved digestion comes from the gunk and residues being washed away from the bile duct tubing as a result of the flood of bile produced during the flush. In other words, after a flush or two, the bile ducts are clearer, and so bile then flows better, and this improves digestion.

As an example of increased bile improving digestion: if you go to Italy, they have an after-meal digestif drink called Fernet, which has a bitter taste, and this bitterness stimulates bile flow and digestive enzyme secretion, which aids digestion.

So after a few flushes, you may be producing more bile. This means that the chemistry in your gut has now changed, and I would suggest that this changed chemistry is the reason these "stones" are no longer being produced. Bile is an emulsifier, ie, a substance that allows oil to be dissolved in water. When you have more bile available, more of the oil will be dissolved and then absorbed by the digestive process.

If you were to conduct a controlled experiment in an container using ox bile, my hunch is that the "stones" will be produced when the ratio of ox bile to olive oil is lower, but if you then repeat the same experiment using more bile, the "stones" will disappear.

So this may explain why some people no longer see "stones" in the feces after doing a few flushes.



The alternative theory is that these large 1 cm sized "stones" seen in a flush come from the liver, even though outside a few diseased people in the Far East, these stones have never been observed in the liver, neither via ultrasound, MRI scans, during liver surgery or autopsy, and even though in order to pass out of the liver, these large stones would somehow have to get through the entire length of the very narrow capillaries in the liver, which are even narrower than the bile ducts.

 

[Undisclosed]

I just did a bit of reading on this liver flush thing. I looked up Doctor H. Clark's site (not a medical doctor). I will just quote a bit because it's truly scary that she was (died in 2009) putting out this type of erroneous information related to the gall bladder, liver and how it all works in conjunction to liver flushes or liver cleanses.

This is particularly important in any disease-prevention program. Cleansing the liver of gallstones dramatically improves digestion, which is the basis of your whole health. You can expect your allergies to disappear, too, more with each cleanse you do! Incredibly, it also eliminates shoulder, upper arm, and upper back pain. You have more energy and increased sense of well being.

For many persons, including children, the biliary tubing is choked with gallstones.

There are over half a dozen varieties of gallstones, most of which have cholesterol crystals in them. They can be black, red, white, green or tan colored. The black ones are full of wheel bearing grease and motor oil, which turns to liquid in a warm place.

At the very center of each stone is found a clump of bacteria, according to scientists, suggesting a dead bit of parasite might have started the stone forming.

I seriously don' know whether I want to laugh or cry over this.

 

[Hip]

She says the gallstones are full of "wheel bearing grease and motor oil" ??!!

Where on Earth did Hulda Clark get that one from?

 

[Dufresne]

Hi Dufrense,

I understand your mistrust of doctors with this disease. Basically no one really understands the mechanism nor proven treatment for CFS/ME. Since allopathic medicine really hasn't helped most people who have this disease except for a handful of CFS/ME, alternative types of therapy are sought out by people affected by this disease. My problem is that most of these alternative therapies really don't make physiologic sense to me and are unlikely to lead to a cure. Liver flushes, coffee enemas, structured water, etc really don't make sense at least to a allopathic practitioner. This doesn't mean that some of these therapies can't work, but maybe by a different mechanism them originally thought. That being said, I feel that progress in unlocking the mysteries of CFS/ME will probably come from basic science and medical researchers.

Best,
Gary

Hi Gary,

I don't mistrust doctors as a rule. Without Drs Cheney, Shoemaker, Horowitz, Klinghardt etc, and internet access people like me would be screwed. I can't imagine the hopelessness of being isolated with this disease and only ever talking to one run of the mill GP that tells you every year that there's still no scientifically recognized treatment for him to prescribe, and "I'll see you in six months, here's some more zoloft." At this point my heroes are no longer just great authors, artists, athletes, and such, but these guys who think outside the box, work their ideas, and actually break new ground. This is why I wanted to make it clear that I don't come at this from that ideological place of "allopathy is poison, everything alternative and natural is right and safe." I'd like nothing more than for the scientists to figure this one out, but I'm not going to sit around and wait for that to happen. I'm willing to bet I'll get mostly well before they do.

Dr Cheney, Phd. has the guts to try all sorts of new therapies on ME/CFS patients. He even fashioned a way of quantifying such interventions. And he's put himself on the line endorsing things like cell signalling factors, and even structured water, which he's also measured with his ETM. (Incidentally structured water has had its pH and ORP manipulated; these are measurable and will obviously have a physiological effect on patients even if it doesn't 'cure' them.)

A large part of Shoemaker's protocol is limiting mycotoxins, as well as removing them using bile sequestrants. Another example of creative healing, and also relates, in a way, back to the subject of this thread. These are interventions I've used and benefited from. I know people who've suffered from this disease and are between 50 and 90% well as the result of employing mycotoxin avoidance and detoxification -or at least that's what we think is going on.

These are examples of treatments out on the fringe with little to no scientific backing, yet they seem to work to some extent. Eventually science will catch up and these things will become more mainstream if there's money to be made. With any luck that guy who sees his doctor every six months will get to try them in five or ten years.

Science is great, but scientism is bad. I'd just like to see more talented researchers looking into some of the things that are actually helping people. The late Rich VanK, from the forum here, once wrote:

I wouldn't pay attention to what Quackwatch says. Actually, whatever they criticize is probably pretty good. I understand that they have lost in court in several instances in which they have been challenged about their postings.

I'll stick my head out and give my two cents when a topic like this comes up and it looks like the other side is not being evenly debated. I do this in the hope that people will maybe take that extra time to look deeper and not dismiss it so quickly after consulting quackwatch. Maybe they might experiment and find something that helps, or even something that changes their whole perspective. This has happened to me. I'm just trying to pass it on.

 

[Dufresne]

@Hip
Yeah that was my point, that I could no longer produce 'stones'. I was trying to be facetious.

I agree with everything you wrote in your above post. It's all very unlikely, and yet I still think there might be something to it. Not because of what Hulda Clark says, but because of what I've observed first hand.

The one challenge I can think of at the moment that I'd want to bring to your hypothesis is the fact that a good number of the 'stones' one is likely to produce are obviously concentrations of bile. As I've stated, bright green the whole way through. This suggests, if these things aren't stones, that there was indeed a fair bit of bile present. And also that it's bile that's being formed into a 'stone', not necessarily vegetable oil. Do you think it's possible for such a seemingly pure concentration of bile to be saponified. If bile breaks down fat, isn't this an impossibility?

I assure you the 'stones' that are expelled look like the ones you find in the pictures online. If you conducted this experiment for yourself, produced these, cut one open to see it was green all the way through, what would be your hypothesis? This is where I'm at with the issue. However I'm not a scientific guy and never took it any further. I haven't done a liver flush in years. I'm interested in any of your ideas.

 

[Hip]

It's possible these stones are a mixture of bile and olive oil, which then hardens up. As bile is an emulsifier, so it can attach to the oil. Apparently 1 liter of bile is secreted into the intestines every day.

But the more interesting question is how a gallbladder flush leads to some of the reported health benefits. I speculated that a flood of bile released during the flush might help wash out residues from the bile ducts, thus clearing these ducts and improving bile flow, which in turn may lead to better digestion. However, this is just a wild guess, and the actual mechanism by which a gallbladder flush may produce some health benefits could be any number of things.

 

[jimells]

That's helpful! I have not had any gallstones come out. But a wide variety of colors, consistencies and densities in the liver stones.

How do you know they are liver stones?

If I correctly understand these flushes, they are designed to cause extreme diarrhea? Uggh. I've had more than enough diarrhea to last several lifetimes. I'm sure not going to do anything to provoke it. About a year ago I had an extremely bad reaction to something. The cramps were so extreme that even though I was supine, my vision was blacking out (all the blood going to the gut?) I was nearly on my knees to get to the toilet.

I'd sooner play Russian Roulette than try one of these "treatments".

 

[jimells]

The black ones are full of wheel bearing grease and motor oil,

Huh. And to think that for the last 40 years I've been paying for motor oil, when I could've made my own right in my gut.

I wonder if it's multi-viscosity or straight 30 weight...