Has Anyone Ever Tried a Gallbladder Flush?

[Valentijn]

Do you know if your laptop LCD monitor is the cheaper twisted nematic (TN) type, or the in-plane switching (IPS) type? TN monitors are characterized by large variations in contrast as you change viewing angles, and often the screen cannot be viewed at all if you look from the side. Whereas IPS monitors provide a much more consistent image across all viewing angles. I have an IPS monitor, and I find there is not much variation in the visual contrast sensitivity test as I change my head angle. Gamers apparently prefer TN monitors though because the image update response time of TN is faster.

I can see it very well from the sides and from the top - basically the images are clear until the screen is literally turned away from me. Though the image does fade out a fair bit if I tilt the screen way back.

My new PC will have the cheap type of screen when I get it ... I'm never looking from weird angles, and apparently it should have better contrast head-on compared to the screen I have now.

 

[howirecovered]

Well guys, I'm not a crusader, so I'm out of here!

If I accidentally walked into a room full of people who said that dental amalgams were safe because mercury doesn't leak out of them, I'd be gone in an instant. Those people could all point to MDs, dentists and other authorities who could back them up.

I'm just a sick guy who followed traditional medicine for a dozen years and just got sicker and sicker. I'm also a sick guy with an open mind and scientific background who reads voraciously. If the 'saponified olive oil' bit is true, then there are hords of people hallucinating about their liver flushing experiences and recoveries from chronic illness, many with decades of hallucinated experience.

Reminds me of the parents I've met who have cured their kids of autism through chelation. Probably hallucinating too.

Where the rubber hits the road for me is my health. If I recover in 2015 after 13 years of severe debilitating illness, I'll come back and put in a good word here for liver flushing.

Finally, I have also frozen some of my liver stone samples and hope to have them analyzed properly someday after I'm recovered.

Wishing you all good health and speedy recoveries!
Eric

some recommended reading
http://liverflushtruth.blogspot.ca
http://www.agirsante.fr

 

[chipmunk1]

i don't understand how the rather small gallbladder could hold so many stones. The volume of stones that many flushes produce seems to be very large. How could that be?

If the 'saponified olive oil' bit is true, then there are hords of people hallucinating about their liver flushing experiences and recoveries from chronic illness, many with decades of hallucinated experience.

another (maybe more likely) possibility:

it's olive oil but it helps for some other reason.

 

[Hip]

If the 'saponified olive oil' bit is true, then there are hords of people hallucinating about their liver flushing experiences and recoveries from chronic illness

That's a non sequitur. The flush may indeed offer heath benefits, but by a different mechanism to the supposed expulsion of gallstones. I postulated a different possible mechanism in my earlier post.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

If the 'saponified olive oil' bit is true, then there are hords of people hallucinating about their liver flushing experiences and recoveries from chronic illness, many with decades of hallucinated experience.

They might be in good company. There are hordes of physicians hallucinating about the way they make PWME better with CBT and GET. There are hordes of immunologists hallucinating about TH1/TH2 balances. There are politicians hallucinating about 'boosting the economy' when people feel worthless and alienated. But surgeons removing cancers from people alive and well forty years later makes some sort of sense. I was amazed when finally treating RA made sense. As for ME I am not sure whose hallucination is best right now but I am pretty sure that finding the best hallucination is helped by recognising that hallucinations are what lives are mostly made of - or as Shakespeare put it better:

Prospero:
...
And like the baseless fabric of this vision,
The cloud-capp'd tow'rs, the gorgeous palaces,
The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve,
And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff
As dreams are made on; and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep.

The Tempest Act 4, scene 1, 148–158

But still, when something figures, it does seem to work better.

 

[Dufresne]

I only saw 'stones' the first few times I flushed. Now, following the exact same instructions, I end up with nothing but water and bile, no material of any considerable size. The 'stones' I had the first few times were, no doubt, clumps of bile (bright green) that varied in size from a pea to a grape. The consistency was such that you could easily break one in half.

These first few flushes I did were followed by several hours of a reprieve from most symptoms. I think this is the result of what Hip suggests, a clearing of various toxins. I know others who've achieved a similar effect with coffee enemas. With the Clark flush I believe the bile and toxins pass through the GI, that it's only when one is eating and digesting that the toxins are really able to be reabsorbed.

If it were just saponified oil, I would think I'd be able to repeat this experiment and consistently produce these things. That's not the case.

 

[Hip]

I only saw 'stones' the first few times I flushed. Now, following the exact same instructions, I end up with nothing but water and bile, no material of any considerable size. The 'stones' I had the first few times were, no doubt, clumps of bile (bright green) that varied in size from a pea to a grape. The consistency was such that you could easily break one in half.

...

If it were just saponified oil, I would think I'd be able to repeat this experiment and consistently produce these things. That's not the case.

That's interesting Dufresne, so in fact your experience refutes what I said earlier that repeated flushes keep producing more "stones". In your case, these "stones" stopped being formed after a few flushes.

These first few flushes I did were followed by several hours of a reprieve from most symptoms.

On the one hand it's impressive that you got remission from your ME/CFS symptoms for a few hours after each flush; but on the other hand, one would have hoped that this improvement in symptoms might have lasted longer, like days or weeks.

 

[Butydoc]

That's interesting Dufresne, so in fact your experience refutes what I said earlier that repeated flushes keep producing more "stones". In your case, these "stones" stopped being ASformed after a few flushes.



On the one hand it's impressive that you got remission from your ME/CFS symptoms for a few hours after each flush; but on the other hand, one would have hoped that this improvement in symptoms might have lasted longer, like days or weeks.

Hi Hip,

I also agree with your hypothesis that the use of liver flushes that appear to help some people are almost certainly from a different, undiscovered mechanism, rather than flushing out of gallstones. Anatomically, the gallbladder duct and common bile ducts are small which would make it very difficult to pass a grape size stone. As pointed out by Jonathan Edwards, these stone would cause a high likelihood of gallstone pancreatitis or ascending cholangitis. Unfortunately, i've operated on several people with these problems. These patients are extremely sick. Small stone
can occasionally pass through the biliary system but more commonly require an operative procedure.

Best,
Gary

 

[Dufresne]

On the one hand it's impressive that you got remission from your ME/CFS symptoms for a few hours after each flush; but on the other hand, one would have hoped that this improvement in symptoms might have lasted longer, like days or weeks.

Agreed. The transient nature of the improvement leads me to believe I was enjoying the benefits that others do with coffee enemas. Something I found interesting about the experience is that my symptoms (fasciculations, electrical hypersensitivity, brain fog, anxiety, nasal congestion) all returned within 5 minutes of eating my first meal post-flush. My guess is that LPS and mycotoxins are only being absorbed into the blood after the digestive process has begun, but that this can happen before the food has even reached the small intestine.

 

[Dufresne]

Hi Hip,
Small stone can occasionally pass through the biliary system but more commonly require an operative procedure.

I don't have much of a stake in this debate but to argue the other side, isn't it possible epsom salts dilate tubing allowing even larger 'stones' to pass, just like the proponents of the practice suggest?

 

[Butydoc]

I don't have much of a stake in this debate but to argue the other side, isn't it possible epsom salts dilate tubing allowing even larger 'stones' to pass, just like the proponents of the practice suggest?

Hi Dufrensne,

Not sure if epsom salt causes relaxation of the biliary system or the common sphincter for the pancreatic duct and common bile duct. The problem is that even small stones can get caught in this biliary system which would expose that person to a obstruction of the pancreatic and common bile duct. This can lead to a very serious medical condition. Pancreatitis and ascending cholangitis are the results of obstruction to this system. Both of these condition are potentially deadly and can cause substantial morbidity. So, if you are able to pass a stone from the gall bladder through the gall bladder duct without causing cholecystitis, you next risk would be obstruction of the common bile duct, which when it becomes obstructed will lead to ascending cholangitis, then if this didn't occur then the next possible point of obstruction would be the sphincter into the duodenum where the pancreatic duct and common bile duct join to empty into the duodenum. This can lead to gallstone pancreatitis and cholangitis. I believe the risk of the above complications would make the idea of passing stones extremely dangerous. Again, just my opinion.

Best,
Gary

 

[Hip]

I don't have much of a stake in this debate but to argue the other side, isn't it possible epsom salts dilate tubing allowing even larger 'stones' to pass, just like the proponents of the practice suggest?

Epsom salts would not pass through to the gallbladder, because the gallbladder lies outside the stomach and intestinal tract along which our food passes. See image below.

I can imagine it's possible that some very small gallstones (if they are present) might be expelled from the gallbladder during a gallbladder flush, but the sheer total volume of these so-called "stones" that appear in the feces after a flush indicates that they could not possibly have come from the gallbladder. The gallbladder would not have enough room to fit them in. A gallbladder is only around 8 cm long and 4 cm wide.

If you look at the images of the "stones" in the link www.agirsante.fr which @howirecovered posted above, which derive from a series of 16 flushes from one person performed in just over a year, there is no way all that sheer volume of "stones" could have come from one tiny gallbladder.

 

[Dufresne]

@Hip @Butydoc

I agree not all the stones are coming from the gallbladder. I was thinking the liver. I believe that's what's being suggested by the proponents of the flush. Also I don't think these 'stones' should (all) be considered gallstones. Those I passed were fairly easily broken open, and likely wouldn't have shown up on an x-ray.

I'm aware what's consumed doesn't immediately pass through the biliary system. Rather I'm suggesting the magnesium is absorbed and this might soon after dilate the tubing of the liver, gallbladder, etc. Large amounts of epsom salt (magnesium) taken orally brings water to the colon essentially creating an enema effect. Could magnesium in the colon then be absorbed and shunted to the liver in a fashion similar to what's proposed in the coffee enema, where the caffeine apparently travels through the hemorrhoidal vein and the portal system, up to the liver where it then dilates the tubing? Magnesium is known to relax and dilate things throughout the body, right? Then after a whole bunch of this you swallow a half cup of oil, releasing 24 hours worth of stored bile in one big flush.

What do you guys think?

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

@Hip @Butydoc

I agree not all the stones are coming from the gallbladder. I was thinking the liver. I believe that's what's being suggested by the proponents of the flush. Also I don't think these 'stones' should (all) be considered gallstones. Those I passed were fairly easily broken open, and likely wouldn't have shown up on an x-ray.

I'm aware what's consumed doesn't immediately pass through the biliary system. Rather I'm suggesting the magnesium is absorbed and this might soon after dilate the tubing of the liver, gallbladder, etc. Large amounts of epsom salt (magnesium) taken orally brings water to the colon essentially creating an enema effect. Could magnesium in the colon then be absorbed and shunted to the liver in a fashion similar to what's proposed in the coffee enema, where the caffeine apparently travels through the hemorrhoidal vein and the portal system, up to the liver where it then dilates the tubing? Magnesium is known to relax and dilate things throughout the body, right? Then after a whole bunch of this you swallow a half cup of oil, releasing 24 hours worth of stored bile in one big flush.

What do you guys think?

Sorry Dufresne but physiology simply does not work like that. You only get solid stones in the gallbladder because it concentrates the bile. The bile coming from the microscopic tubes in the liver into the ducts is dilute and will never go solid, not even soft - it is yellow green water. So there is no such thing as a liver stone that is not a gallstone - except conceivably in very rare situations where plumbing is changed by something like previous surgery and there is obstruction.

Magnesium taken by mouth could lead to a slight rise in plasma magnesium that would get to the liver but there seems no reason why this should affect bile ducts and as Gary says, there isn't much scope to make these tubes bigger. More likely the rush of fluid through the duodenum from the osmotic effect of the epsom salt could cause reflex gallbladder (the only place where bile is stored) contraction but then we are back to gallstones - and contraction rather than dilatation.

It's all very intriguing but it doesn't sound like 'liver stones'.

 

[Dufresne]

Sorry Dufresne but physiology simply does not work like that. You only get solid stones in the gallbladder because it concentrates the bile. The bile coming from the microscopic tubes in the liver into the ducts is dilute and will never go solid, not even soft - it is yellow green water. So there is no such thing as a liver stone that is not a gallstone - except conceivably in very rare situations where plumbing is changed by something like previous surgery and there is obstruction.

Magnesium taken by mouth could lead to a slight rise in plasma magnesium that would get to the liver but there seems no reason why this should affect bile ducts and as Gary says, there isn't much scope to make these tubes bigger. More likely the rush of fluid through the duodenum from the osmotic effect of the epsom salt could cause reflex gallbladder (the only place where bile is stored) contraction but then we are back to gallstones - and contraction rather than dilatation.

It's all very intriguing but it doesn't sound like 'liver stones'.

I concede I'm out of my depth with the physiology here, specifically with regards to the possibility that stones can be formed in the liver. However this is what Dr Clark maintains, and there are others online that also hold this position. I'm aware of the lack of scientific foundation for this, but I would ask if it's absolutely impossible?

I wonder what these noduled stones are. Certainly they're largely composed of bile by the bright green colour of them. If it is a trick, and they're not stones, that's some trick. And that fewer and fewer of them appear until there's none is especially curious.

The mechanism I suggested by which magnesium makes it to the liver is possible. If that produces dilation of ducts is another matter, but perhaps also possible(?).

I acknowledge it's awfully convincing that through the centuries of dissecting livers we haven't discovered stones within.

 

[Dufresne]

Sorry Dufresne but physiology simply does not work like that. You only get solid stones in the gallbladder because it concentrates the bile. The bile coming from the microscopic tubes in the liver into the ducts is dilute and will never go solid, not even soft - it is yellow green water. So there is no such thing as a liver stone that is not a gallstone - except conceivably in very rare situations where plumbing is changed by something like previous surgery and there is obstruction.

My point about stones that aren't gallstones is that the ones I've expelled were obviously composed of bile but not calcified and wouldn't show up on an x-ray, therefore they wouldn't be diagnosed as gallstones.

I don't know if the following refutes your point about stones not forming in the liver.

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/gast...pancreas_biliary_tract/cholangiocarcinoma.pdf

Gallstones

Gallstones vary in size, shape and number, and may be found throughout the biliary tract. The link between cholangiocarcinoma and gallstones is unclear. Intrahepatic gallstones may cause chronic obstruction to bile flow, promote micro injury of the bile ducts, and are associated with a 2–10% risk of the development of cholangiocarcinoma (Figure 9).

Figure 9. Intrahepatic biliary gallstones resulting in ductal dilation.

 

[Butydoc]

My point about stones that aren't gallstones is that the ones I've expelled were obviously composed of bile but not calcified and wouldn't show up on an x-ray, therefore they wouldn't be diagnosed as gallstones.

I don't know if the following refutes your point about stones not forming in the liver.

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/gast...pancreas_biliary_tract/cholangiocarcinoma.pdf

Gallstones

Gallstones vary in size, shape and number, and may be found throughout the biliary tract. The link between cholangiocarcinoma and gallstones is unclear. Intrahepatic gallstones may cause chronic obstruction to bile flow, promote micro injury of the bile ducts, and are associated with a 2–10% risk of the development of cholangiocarcinoma (Figure 9).

Figure 9. Intrahepatic biliary gallstones resulting in ductal dilation.

Hi Dufresne,

You are correct that intrahepatic stones do exist. It is a rare condition in western cultures but more prevalent in the East Asia. 90 percent of these stones are made of calcium. It appears these stones generally arise in a diseased liver and may promote cholangiocarcinoma. I don't believe these stones can be removed via a "liver flush". I assume you are not talking about the benefits of liver flush concerning theses unusual liver stones.

Best,
Gary

 

[Undisclosed]

I have been following this thread with much interest. I am not sure how liver flushing or even the removal of 'real' gallstones would help with ME symptoms. They are two different things. Symptoms of gallstones are so much different than ME symptoms. I don't know. I just think that these flushes are producing something other than gallstones.

I did appreciate @Hip alternate explanation because for me the original hypothesis does not work. When I was a nursing student doing my rounds in the ER, I did see a patient come in with gallstones and then die from an obstruction. It's not pretty and it's really scary. It's not something to mess around with.

 

[A.B.]

Finally, I have also frozen some of my liver stone samples and hope to have them analyzed properly someday after I'm recovered.

Heat one of these stones up. If it melts it's probably soap.

 

[Undisclosed]

Well guys, I'm not a crusader, so I'm out of here!

If I accidentally walked into a room full of people who said that dental amalgams were safe because mercury doesn't leak out of them, I'd be gone in an instant. Those people could all point to MDs, dentists and other authorities who could back them up.

I'm just a sick guy who followed traditional medicine for a dozen years and just got sicker and sicker. I'm also a sick guy with an open mind and scientific background who reads voraciously. If the 'saponified olive oil' bit is true, then there are hords of people hallucinating about their liver flushing experiences and recoveries from chronic illness, many with decades of hallucinated experience.

Reminds me of the parents I've met who have cured their kids of autism through chelation. Probably hallucinating too.

Where the rubber hits the road for me is my health. If I recover in 2015 after 13 years of severe debilitating illness, I'll come back and put in a good word here for liver flushing.

Finally, I have also frozen some of my liver stone samples and hope to have them analyzed properly someday after I'm recovered.

Wishing you all good health and speedy recoveries!
Eric

some recommended reading
http://liverflushtruth.blogspot.ca
http://www.agirsante.fr

Just to comment here. I appreciate all you have been saying @howirecovered

I always wonder when people say they have an open mind. I wonder at times if I do. Everytime a member posts something that I need more answers for, I look for answers. I want to know all the information. If, after, I have looked at that information, and I decide I don't agree with it, am I a close-minded person?

I don't think liver flushing is the answer for solving ME/CFS. I just wonder, why leave because people are not agreeing with you. I am opened minded to the extent that I look for answers that prove my own thoughts wrong. In this case, I think these liver flushes are not producing gallstones and even if they were is that a cure for ME/CFS. I doubt it.

I am glad we have delved into this further, it's been very interesting.