Glutathione & Precursors - Detox or Induced Methylb12 and Methylfolate Deficiencies?

Freddd

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LOL,
Yes that sounds all too familiar re symptoms, I am lucky if I can get my Doc to listen to three. I know I had to spend a vast amount of time writing down grouping and structuring my symptoms (32 pages worth). People with serious and complex illnesses need a different kind of 'GP service'.

Sadly no I have access to neither (mass spec). I am going after a round of research funding at the moment (and preparing an earlier paper for publishing).

The most obvious flaw in B12 testing is how they do it (Cyanide binding) which obscures (potentially) flaws in metabolism.

I have come to the conclusion that health services need specialist doctors dealing in Metabolic Medicine, medics in general are near clueless about this stuff. The number of ways Methylation can be messed up for example is enough to make a beginners head spin and most Biochemistry texts miss out vast amounts of really basic biochemistry.

With ME and these related diseases you can't really be fearful can you? You would never get well without a willingness to experiment - more risk limitation than risk elimination. I have a particular need for caution due to ME interacting with type I diabetes.
Hi Leopardtail,

It requires a special opaque blood draw kit that is special order and expensive to be able to do an analysis of the various forms of cobalamin. Very little light is all it takes to break down MeCbl and AdoCbl to HyCbl in an equilibrium state with H2OCbl.
 

Leopardtail

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I had seen vague references to light in discussion. How is the actual test peformed for MeCbl and AdoCbl? Meaning once the 'black magic' sample gets to a lab?
 

Freddd

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I had seen vague references to light in discussion. How is the actual test peformed for MeCbl and AdoCbl? Meaning once the 'black magic' sample gets to a lab?
Not very well it would appear. They are really only targeting AdoCbl and MeCbl. I read a study last year in which the researchers were working on a method to distinguish a suspected 100 or so temporary variants of cobalamin, all apparently flowing from MeCbl. Last I had read there were 18 plant only variants which could each be distinguished by x-ray crystallography and how the layers of flat sheets of crystal stacked.
 

Leopardtail

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Not very well it would appear. They are really only targeting AdoCbl and MeCbl. I read a study last year in which the researchers were working on a method to distinguish a suspected 100 or so temporary variants of cobalamin, all apparently flowing from MeCbl. Last I had read there were 18 plant only variants which could each be distinguished by x-ray crystallography and how the layers of flat sheets of crystal stacked.
Gottcha, I suspected things might well prove difficult. It's so frustrating with B-Vitamins that tests for 'active forms' are unavailable isn't it? Primarily from the viewing of 'proving' things scientifically rather than demonstrating 'likelihood' via implication.

Regarding conversion, do you know which enzyme converts MeCbl to AdoCbl - I have found a lot of vague references, but little solid stuff. I would like to know a great deal more about the substrates involved and the energy demands of conversion. To be honest though so far I have done a lot more work on the Methyl stuff.

Ditto with the stripping of Cyanide from the supplementary forms in the liver which enzyme does that? It's not something I have looked into too much (yet), but I had some thoughts revolving around it recently.

I was curious, has your work (research) been done mainly at home, or in an academic setting. When illness allows (or allowed) you to have a real life, what was your professional area?
 

Leopardtail

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NAC "detox", or induced folate deficiency in official side effects but not recognized

Deplin (pure Metafolin) side effects
Are there side effects with Deplin? http://www.deplin.com/DeplinFacts,WhatToExpect
L-methylfolate was well tolerated in both short-term and long-term trials. Side effects did not differ from a sugar pill (placebo).15-18 Deplin has not been associated with weight gain, sexual dysfunction, nausea, or akathisia.15-21

http://www.drugs.com/sfx/cerefolin-w....htmlCerefolin with NAC

All medicines may cause side effects, but many people have no, or minor, side effects. Check with your doctor if any of these most COMMON side effects persist or become bothersome when using Cerefolin with NAC:
Bloated feeling; headache; itching; mild diarrhea; mild fever; nausea; vomiting.
Seek medical attention right away if any of these SEVERE side effects occur when using Cerefolin with NAC:
Severe allergic reactions (rash; hives; difficulty breathing; tightness in the chest; swelling of the mouth, face, lips, or tongue); lower back or side pain.
So we see these side effects for Metafolin with NAC and NONE of them for pure Metafolin. These NAC side effects are commonly called "NAC detox" and are in fact identical with severe induced folate effects. Notice the increase in allergic response and the IBS onset. Also identical with "glutathione detox" effects. Also identical with paradoxical folate deficiency effects. The Cerefolin with NAC list is not a complete list, just the consumer list. I'm still chasing down that professional list.
Look forward to seeing the full list on that one Freddd, often find them as scientifically useful as the benefits.
 

Freddd

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Gottcha, I suspected things might well prove difficult. It's so frustrating with B-Vitamins that tests for 'active forms' are unavailable isn't it? Primarily from the viewing of 'proving' things scientifically rather than demonstrating 'likelihood' via implication.

Regarding conversion, do you know which enzyme converts MeCbl to AdoCbl - I have found a lot of vague references, but little solid stuff. I would like to know a great deal more about the substrates involved and the energy demands of conversion. To be honest though so far I have done a lot more work on the Methyl stuff.

Ditto with the stripping of Cyanide from the supplementary forms in the liver which enzyme does that? It's not something I have looked into too much (yet), but I had some thoughts revolving around it recently.

I was curious, has your work (research) been done mainly at home, or in an academic setting. When illness allows (or allowed) you to have a real life, what was your professional area?
I was curious, has your work (research) been done mainly at home, or in an academic setting. When illness allows (or allowed) you to have a real life, what was your professional area?

I worked at home. I traveled 6-8 times per year if well enough, mostly for conferences and consulting or installing and training for the software. Once I had to travel to pick up the data when they had "problems" getting the data to us. They were computer illiterate and their programmer had died. It was a small operation. They were mostly group benefit plans set up under ERISA. At conferences we, the group of consultants, exhibited, gave some sessions, participated in sessions and presented. We were one group of half a dozen groups of consultants that were handling the oversight of a large group of benefit plans all over the country. We worked for the plan trustees and reviewed 100% data samples, after we rewrote the DOJ reporting requirements. The previous set of requirements had been specified in the late 50s and were totally out of touch with modern computer technology circa 1982. I was a systems analyst, designing and writing software and multi task consultant. So when plans were updating from old systems to new systems I often handled the data conversions, from small endian to big endian systems, from EBCDIC to ASCII and so on. I even have a now old 10" reel tape drive for my at the time state of the art custom configured PC for standardized data transfer. Because of the nature of the data, we were able to analyze the practice patterns of the same groups of providers by compensation methods and pre-auth requirements. It turned out to be a major clue to provider and/or management fraud and misbehavior.

With the group of computer consultants I worked with sometimes, a protected mode shell program (virtual machine) that controlled nasty programs running in unprotected mode so they could do no harm was modified to do on the fly assembly machine code translation of obsolete computer systems so that legacy programs could continue to be run on much more powerful microcomputers after the hardware could not be maintained. Even Windows could be run as a task. We could run Windows in multiple virtual machines and make it well behaved with multitasking handled by the host OS. Because of magazine articles I was writing I could get a press pass to COMDEX and got to go to all the good stuff. Aside from the illness, I was having a good time.

Regarding conversion, do you know which enzyme converts MeCbl to AdoCbl

Not off hand. It requires ATP of course. Look for cobalamin lettered diseases, ie cobalamin A, B, C etc. This is mostly older papers. CyCbl also is covered in these, or especially covered.
 

Leopardtail

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I was curious, has your work (research) been done mainly at home, or in an academic setting. When illness allows (or allowed) you to have a real life, what was your professional area?

I worked at home. I traveled 6-8 times per year if well enough, mostly for conferences and consulting or installing and training for the software. Once I had to travel to pick up the data when they had "problems" getting the data to us. They were computer illiterate and their programmer had died. It was a small operation. They were mostly group benefit plans set up under ERISA. At conferences we, the group of consultants, exhibited, gave some sessions, participated in sessions and presented. We were one group of half a dozen groups of consultants that were handling the oversight of a large group of benefit plans all over the country. We worked for the plan trustees and reviewed 100% data samples, after we rewrote the DOJ reporting requirements. The previous set of requirements had been specified in the late 50s and were totally out of touch with modern computer technology circa 1982. I was a systems analyst, designing and writing software and multi task consultant. So when plans were updating from old systems to new systems I often handled the data conversions, from small endian to big endian systems, from EBCDIC to ASCII and so on. I even have a now old 10" reel tape drive for my at the time state of the art custom configured PC for standardized data transfer. Because of the nature of the data, we were able to analyze the practice patterns of the same groups of providers by compensation methods and pre-auth requirements. It turned out to be a major clue to provider and/or management fraud and misbehavior.

With the group of computer consultants I worked with sometimes, a protected mode shell program (virtual machine) that controlled nasty programs running in unprotected mode so they could do no harm was modified to do on the fly assembly machine code translation of obsolete computer systems so that legacy programs could continue to be run on much more powerful microcomputers after the hardware could not be maintained. Even Windows could be run as a task. We could run Windows in multiple virtual machines and make it well behaved with multitasking handled by the host OS. Because of magazine articles I was writing I could get a press pass to COMDEX and got to go to all the good stuff. Aside from the illness, I was having a good time.

Regarding conversion, do you know which enzyme converts MeCbl to AdoCbl

Not off hand. It requires ATP of course. Look for cobalamin lettered diseases, ie cobalamin A, B, C etc. This is mostly older papers. CyCbl also is covered in these, or especially covered.
Yep that was the bit I found, will let you know when I track it down, though it might be a while - I tend so spend more time researching stuff that can't be supplemented.