getting worse from imunovir?

Mij

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"The reason seems to be that restoring the methylation cycle to normal operation brings the immune system and the detox system back up as well, and that starts the process of killing accumulated pathogens and mobilizing stored toxins. These processes can indeed cause a person to feel worse. However, I don't think there is a way to get rid of these pathogens and stored toxins without experiencing some unpleasant symptoms for a while. Quite a few people have testified that this has been their experience, but things do improve after these problems are cleared out. More information on this treatment and the biochiemistry behind it can be found at www.cfsresearch.org until the end of this month. Click on CFS/M.E. and then on my name.

Best regards,

Rich[/QUOTE]

Hi Rich,

You are making an assumption that all ME patients have underlying "pathegons and accumulated toxins" which is false.

Mij
 

floydguy

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"The reason seems to be that restoring the methylation cycle to normal operation brings the immune system and the detox system back up as well, and that starts the process of killing accumulated pathogens and mobilizing stored toxins. These processes can indeed cause a person to feel worse. However, I don't think there is a way to get rid of these pathogens and stored toxins without experiencing some unpleasant symptoms for a while. Quite a few people have testified that this has been their experience, but things do improve after these problems are cleared out. More information on this treatment and the biochiemistry behind it can be found at www.cfsresearch.org until the end of this month. Click on CFS/M.E. and then on my name.

Best regards,

Rich
Hi Rich,

You are making an assumption that all ME patients have underlying "pathegons and accumulated toxins" which is false.

Mij[/QUOTE]

Can you have CFS without a virus or pathogen not being dealt with by a dysfunctional immune system?
 

shannah

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Any good reports on Imunovir? I am literally about ready to start taking it. I am certainly going to monitor very closely. Thanks for the heads up.
My son took this at maximum dose for a couple of years. His NK cell count improved from abnormal to just barely into the reference range. He wasn't quite as exhausted and drained as previously.

We discontinued after a couple of years thinking that since the improvements were minimal, we would move onto other avenues. In his case, I felt it just wasn't strong enough but then what has been?
 

Hip

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I was thinking that my deterioration in the last 6 months could be due to the imunovir. I was blaming LDN for that. Any (bad) experiences?
Apparently LDN is known to reduce positive emotions and increase anhedonia. When I took LDN, I only noticed its anhedonia effect after a while (and because I got more energy from taking LDN, I thought that LDN was doing me good, so I kept taking LDN and did not think further about it).

For me this anhedonia effect of LDN was a little problematic, since I unfortunately experience a lot of anhedonia/emotionally flatness as a symptom of CFS anyway, and I don't want anything that amplifies that more. So in spite of the energy boost that LDN gives me, personally I think I am better without it.

I imagine that the anhedonia/emotionally flatness found in CFS is connected to hypothalamus dysfunction, as the hypothalamus plays a role in emotion.
 

garcia

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Many thanks for that Hip.
All the above applies to Naltrexone (the high dose drug). Now Naltrexone is an opiate-blocker, so it is not surprising that it induces anhedonia.

However LDN (low dose naltrexone) works paradoxically in that there is a short term blockade of opiate receptors which induces the body's own endogenous opiate production. In other words LDN should lift mood and is widely reported to have that effect. I certainly feel elevated mood from LDN.

Its weird that you are getting anhedonia from LDN, but obviously if that is your experience then something must be going on. I know what a bummer anhedonia can be as I have suffered from it myself in the past.

P.S. just out of interest what dosage of LDN were you on?
many thanks,
garcia.
 

Hip

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Many thanks for that Hip.
All the above applies to Naltrexone (the high dose drug). Now Naltrexone is an opiate-blocker, so it is not surprising that it induces anhedonia.

However LDN (low dose naltrexone) works paradoxically in that there is a short term blockade of opiate receptors which induces the body's own endogenous opiate production. In other words LDN should lift mood and is widely reported to have that effect. I certainly feel elevated mood from LDN.

Its weird that you are getting anhedonia from LDN, but obviously if that is your experience then something must be going on. I know what a bummer anhedonia can be as I have suffered from it myself in the past.

P.S. just out of interest what dosage of LDN were you on?
many thanks,
garcia.
That makes sense. I should have realized that they were talking about full-dose naltrexone causing anhedonia in those forums, rather than the low-dose usage.

I tried 3.1 mg of naltrexone daily before bed (from a 50 mg tablet divided into 1/16ths gves 3.1 mg) for some months, and also 6.3 mg daily (50 mg tablet divided into 1/8ths gives 6.3 mg). It was at this latter dosage that I noticed the anhedonia. I could be that the 3.1 mg dose might be OK for me.

I read somewhere that the optimum LDN dose is 4.5 mg, and I think I tried this sort of dosage also (a 50 mg tablet divided into 1/12ths = 4.2 mg).

I was experiencing a lot of anhedonia at the time anyway, but I felt that LDN made it worse. These days I am not getting so much anhedonia, so I might try LDN again, and see if I am now OK with it.
 

FunkOdyssey

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Actually I suffer with anhedonia most of the time and over a period of months I also noticed LDN making that worse. It didn't happen immediately it was gradual.
 

Hip

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Actually I suffer with anhedonia most of the time and over a period of months I also noticed LDN making that worse. It didn't happen immediately it was gradual.
Yes, that's exactly how it happened with me: gradually over a few months. It sort of slowly creeps up on you.
 

garcia

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Actually I suffer with anhedonia most of the time and over a period of months I also noticed LDN making that worse. It didn't happen immediately it was gradual.
That is very interesting Funk. What dose were you on btw? And did you ever consider taking breaks?

Hip & Funk, if I was getting side-effects from LDN (such as anhedonia) but wanted to take it anyway, I would take it at a lower dose (e.g. 1mg) and/or consider taking it every-other-day.

As it happens I do get a side-effect from LDN (gut problems), so can only take it at low dose (1mg) and only once in a while (maybe once or twice a fortnight).
 

leaves

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So klimas gave me nk function test results back: before imunovir it was 29 now it is 5..
Im not sure if ill ever get back to my old self.
I just wished that Dr Klimas had monitored my blood levels some more .. Maybe then it wouldnt have been this bad.
 

Hip

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NK Function Boost

Leaves, do you know that there are other supplements/drugs that will boost NK function, including:

AHCC (active hexose correlated compound)
MGN3
IP6 (inositol hexaphosphate)
lycopene
Siberian ginseng
inosine

Might be worth trying these?
 

Sushi

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I tried 3.1 mg of naltrexone daily before bed (from a 50 mg tablet divided into 1/16ths gves 3.1 mg) for some months, and also 6.3 mg daily (50 mg tablet divided into 1/8ths gives 6.3 mg). It was at this latter dosage that I noticed the anhedonia. I could be that the 3.1 mg dose might be OK for me.

I read somewhere that the optimum LDN dose is 4.5 mg, and I think I tried this sort of dosage also (a 50 mg tablet divided into 1/12ths = 4.2 mg).
Hi Hip,

6.3 mg is considered way too much. The max (unless you are very heavy) is 4.5 and many find they do better on a lower dose or even taking it every other day. 4.5 works fine for me and I have never experienced anhedonia from it.

Experiment, we all seem to have to hunt for our optimal dose.

Sushi
 
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Don't stop the immunovir! The sick feeling is the herkzheimer's reaction - that means feeling like you are going to die is good because lots of bad things are dying in tiny toxic explosions that your body has to clear out. Dr. Klimas in Miami explains it better, but when I told her I felt like I was going to die, she said it was good because that meant the medicine is working. Immunovir is like the terminator - it does the job, but lots of dead bodies are left lying around for the cops to clean up; a.k.a. toxins that your white blood cells have to clean up. Just imagine evil bugs dying a cruel death, and you begin to think you must be feeling better than they do.
 

garcia

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So klimas gave me nk function test results back: before imunovir it was 29 now it is 5..
Im not sure if ill ever get back to my old self.
I just wished that Dr Klimas had monitored my blood levels some more .. Maybe then it wouldnt have been this bad.
Hi leaves,
can you specify what dose of imunovir you were on, and for how long? (apologies if you have already posted).

Also what protocol were you on - continuous or pulsing?

Also when you took the 2nd NK test, were you still taking imunovir on the day, or had you stopped taking it. If so for how long had you stopped taking it?

Many thanks!
garcia.
 

leaves

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I did one week daily 3 a day. Weekends off. Next week 6 a day. This for 8 months. I took the test on Monday morning and my last dose was Thursday evening.
 

leaves

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Don't stop the immunovir! The sick feeling is the herkzheimer's reaction - that means feeling like you are going to die is good because lots of bad things are dying in tiny toxic explosions that your body has to clear out. Dr. Klimas in Miami explains it better, but when I told her I felt like I was going to die, she said it was good because that meant the medicine is working. Immunovir is like the terminator - it does the job, but lots of dead bodies are left lying around for the cops to clean up; a.k.a. toxins that your white blood cells have to clean up. Just imagine evil bugs dying a cruel death, and you begin to think you must be feeling better than they do.
Dr klimas herself told me to stop it. I've regressed severely because of it.
 

garcia

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I took the test on Monday morning and my last dose was Thursday evening.
This may be the reason why your NK was so low. There may be some kind of rebound effect from coming off the medication - I certainly feel worse when I come off taking imunovir, so I take it constantly.

It may be a good idea to test NK cells on a day you are taking the imunovir to compare.

Dr klimas herself told me to stop it. I've regressed severely because of it.
Leaves, do you mean you regressed whilst taking imunovir, or you've regressed since stopping?