Gestalt's Genova, 23andMe & Yasko Methylation genetic results

[Gestalt]

I think I narrowed down one thing I have been reacting to, I have been taking my supplements for some time now with a protein shake called Nature's Plus Spirutein. I had backed of the shake for almost a month. This week I decided to take the shake alone with almond milk and no other supplements. To my surprise within 30 minutes I became fatigued, sleepy, flt sedated, so weak had to lay down. Took 3-4 hours to recover. I was stunned, I was blaming the supplements all this time. The shake has a lot in it including spirulina, l-glutamine. I did a Google search and found a number of people reporting similar have similar symptoms. Anyone here have similar reaction to their protein shake?

I would be careful before jumping to conclusions and assuming - saying it's the "protein", or the "glutamine" in you shake that is making you tired...

Could also be any one of these OTHER ingredients:

Proprietary non-GMO protein blend (rice protein, pea protein, and soy [isolated soy protein and fermented soy]), Fructose, Di-Calcium Phosphate, Xanthan Gum, Vanilla Flavor, FOS (Fructooligosaccharides), Guar Gum, Psyllium, Maltodextrin, Potassium Citrate, Magnesium Oxide, Oat Bran, Microcrystalline Cellulose, Spirulina, Vitamin C, Vitamin E, Choline Birartrate, Inositol, apple pectin, Bee Pollen, Niacinamide, Vitamin A Palmitate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Ferrous Fumarate, Calcium Pantothenate, Lecithin, Lemon Bioflavonoids, Papaya, Bromelain, Chlorophyll, Pyridoxine HCI, Riboflavin, Thiamin (Vitamin B-1) (as Thiamine HCl), Vitamin B-12, Ergocalciferol, Folic Acid, Biotin, Potassium Iodide, Chromium Chloride, Sodium Selenate, Sodium Molybdate
http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2133797

Right of the bat I see one of the first ingredients and therefore a higher amount is "Vanilla Flavor" which is a dead give away for MSGlutamate. Almost ALL flavors including natural, are hidden forms of glutamates. They make me tired as hell.

Get a protein powder with NO additives and see if it makes a difference. I know for me it does.

 

[Pegasus]

how much yucca do you take ? and how? and also how much DIM? and what brands do you use? thanks.

 

[Gestalt]

how much yucca do you take ? and how? and also how much DIM? and what brands do you use? thanks.

Per Day:

I take 1x capsule (490mg) at nighttime of this Yucca: http://www.naturesway.com/Products/Herbs/18300-Yucca-Stalk.aspx

I take 1x tablet (120mg) of DIM: http://www.nationalnutrition.ca/detail.aspx?ID=4421

 

[Pegasus]

Hi Gestalt

Im curious about the RNA´s,how many drops do you take a day? they don´t seem to last very long and are quite expensive.
Do you reduce the dosage after a while? when your condition is stable?
Also do you have to take them forever to bypass the gene mutations you have?

thanks

 

[tim0011]

I'm just curious is there any other site like GeneticGenie to convert raw data into Yasko-like chart?

 

[Gestalt]

Im curious about the RNA´s,how many drops do you take a day? they don´t seem to last very long and are quite expensive.
Do you reduce the dosage after a while? when your condition is stable?
Also do you have to take them forever to bypass the gene mutations you have?

I take the SHMT and Ammonia Support RNA. I take 2 drops, 3 x a day (6 drops total per day) per RNA.
I will probably take them for a few more years, and then experiment going off them and seeing if it makes a difference. It's possible I may be on them for life. I just see it as a highly refined form of food and we need to eat until we die. Same with most of my supplements. It's a form of health insurance.

I'm just curious is there any other site like GeneticGenie to convert raw data into Yasko-like chart?

No, I don't believe so.

 

[Pegasus]

Hi Gestalt,got some more question for you

How much apple pectin do you take and how?
Is it ok if you taking yucca with medication? will it absorb the medication? example,taking before sleeping (i take sleeping aids)
How did you start the program? first the RNA´s ? and then Methylation support? (Methylmate A and B,etc...)

thanks

 

[Gestalt]

How much apple pectin do you take and how?
Is it ok if you taking yucca with medication? will it absorb the medication? example,taking before sleeping (i take sleeping aids)
How did you start the program? first the RNA´s ? and then Methylation support? (Methylmate A and B,etc...)

I was taking 1 capsule a day, now I don't take any, just eat apples and sometimes take Malic Acid.

Yucca should be fine with medication, Haven't read anything about possible interactions in the medical literature.

I first started with general Methylation support, Methylmate B and Metabolic support supplements and then after moved on to RNA's...first the generic support ones, and then gene specific one at a time to see effects over multiple weeks and months.

 

[WoolPippi]

hi Gestalt, I just want to say hi & thank you for posting this thread: "Hi. Thank you for posting this thread!"

a few months back your 1st post prompted me to get a kit from 23andme. I was sure my COMT was defunct. Results are just in and I'm laughing. No COMT problems but VDR Taq is ++ which acts the same (somewhat).

your inspiration and my results now make sense of all the remedies I've found already for my fatigue but cannot explain to 'normal people': use lots of vit.D; heal the gut; balance estrogens with bio-identical progesteron; coax yourself out of Fight or Flight and into Rest & Digest every day; eat small portions of high fat and good protein and stay away from flavourings, especially vanillin because this particular makes me desperate for the time it's in my system.

my doctor is mystified by all my B12-shortage-symptoms whilst I've got good blood levels. Wait till I tell him MTR A2756G and MTRR A66G are ++ and MTRR A664A, MTHFR A1298C and MTHFR C677T are +/-. We'll be laughing together! I'll be ordering a Methyl-B12 supplement soon.

But first I'm researching some more. Shouldn't start supplementing specific things out of the blue, I think. Especially since CBS A360A and BHMT-08 are +/- too. Gotta look into that first.
Anyway. Thanks again. Best wishes from Anna.

ps. guess what. I had to get out of the city and the noise years ago to heal. Couldn't explain it. Doctor wonders how I grew as sensitive as someone with Autism. And now I read about GABA? this stuff cracks me up!

 

[Star-Anise]

caledonia
Hi there, I've received my 23andme back & ran it through Genetic Genie. I would love to determine my cyp status as I suffer from +++impaired estrogen metabolism. Do you know a way I can do this? Star

 

[caledonia]

Sure, just use the Detox Profile at geneticgenie.

 

[Star-Anise]

caledonia
Bingo! Thanks for the amazing work you do on this site

 

[Jarod]

I wonder where the rational behind a CBS upreg leading to higher alpha-ketoglutarate comes from? CBS upreg according to the yasko diagram increases alpha-ketobutyric. Maybe heartfixer got the 2 confused?

If you have the CBS upreg, I found yucca to be very beneficial to myself in terms of soaking up excess ammonia which was causing me extreme Excitotoxicity.

Heartfixer does not explain the mechanisms behind this statement: "Genomic defects, viral illness, and heavy metals will compromise this balance, leading to excess glutamate"

If there broad issues in the methylation pathway (CBS, MTHFR,DHPR,NOS,OTC) these will all lead to excess ammonia levels which is a potent excitotoxin. This causes microglial activation which in turn causes a drastic increase in glutamate levels and therefore probably akg levels.


Source: "When activated by proinflammatory stimuli, microglia release substantial levels of glutamate, and mounting evidence suggests this contributes to neuronal damage during neuroinflammation."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1949347/

So therefore, to get rid of ammonia, fix methylation pathways, take yucca, eliminate dietary sources of free-form glutamate (most refined foods, especially wheat or anything with a "flavor" or "spices" additive; click on this for extended list) and that should help control the "excess glutamate" problems.

Great thread,

Somebody suggested a supplement called OKG

could be an alternative way to scavenge ammonia and get glutatmine in to the system.​

Articles below provide some food for though. Any thoughts?

I have problems with excitotoxicity, so aware of needing to be cautious about trying stuff that may create more glutamate.

Probably easiest to try it out, but probably nothing special with OKG, or else everybody would be using it already.

The actual biochemistry is complicated. We'll try to explain it simply. Glutamate plus adenosine triphosphate (ATP) and ammonia are required to make glutamine.( 3) For this process glutamine acts as an ammonia scavenger. Alpha-ketoglutarate and ammonia (plus a few other chemicals) are required to make glutamate. Alpha-ketoglutarate then combines with glutamine breaking it down into glutamate again. This building-up and breaking-down process donates nitrogen and removes ammonia. Glutamate with the help of alpha-ketoglutarate is also involved in the formation of two other amino acids, proline and arginine.
The most important part of this metabolic process is the use of ammonia to combine with alpha-ketoglutarate to first form glutamate, and then to form glutamine from glutamate, ATP and ammonia. These processes keep the levels of ammonia in your system down. This formation of glutamine is also important because of protein synthesis. Glutamine carries two nitrogen molecules and can transport nitrogen and nitrogen waste.( 4)

Glutamine conversion by itself can give off ammonia? May explain why some have trouble with glutamine by itself?

Glutamine is involved in protein synthesis and it will work, but by taking large amounts of glutamine supplements you are bypassing the formation process of glutamine and the uptake of free ammonia. You are also adding extra ammonia back into the system when the glutamine is broken down.

http://www.encognitive.com/node/11534

From another article:

Sports performance enhancement is riddled with controversy but with safe and effective food supplements like Ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate (OKG) your time in the gym need not be one uphill struggle. OKG has been shown to be an anabolic food increasing energy, endurance and muscle mass whilst decreasing muscle breakdown, adipose tissue, and fatigue and recovery time. It is also proving to be of efficacy in combating brain fog and fatigue associated with ammonia toxicity and conditions where muscle wasting or malnutrition is a factor like gastroenteritis and old age .1

Firstly it regulates L-Glutamine levels which is an essential source of cellular fuel to drive metabolic processes and for which the body is ordinarily forced to break down muscle. But the AKG component of OKG curbs this "auto-cannibalism" by combining with the toxic by-product ammonia produced during intense workouts to restore glutamine and hence energy levels back to normal, preventing the attack on lean muscle mass and the accumulation of ammonia. Such ammonia scavenging improves detoxification which ordinarily is highly toxic to the brain causing brain fog and impaired cognition as seen in high protein diets

http://www.psychiatrywithoutdrugs.co.uk/okg.htm

 

[Gestalt]

Somebody suggested a supplement called OKG

could be an alternative way to scavenge ammonia and get glutatmine in to the system.​

Articles below provide some food for though. Any thoughts?

I have problems with excitotoxicity, so aware of needing to be cautious about trying stuff that may create more glutamate.

Probably easiest to try it out, but probably nothing special with OKG, or else everybody would be using it already.


Glutamine conversion by itself can give off ammonia? May explain why some have trouble with glutamine by itself?

Thanks for the article links!

I had begun researching this more in depth and was experimenting around a bit, but didn't get around to doing anything thoroughly. Through my research I got conflicting messages.

You can see my unfinished thought process here: http://www.gestaltreality.com/2013/07/23/anxiety-ammonia-the-nmda-receptor/

My worry with AKG was that if ammonia is a byproduct of bacteria from gut dysbiosis, then you could be trading one excitotoxin with another by producing excess glutamate. Which one is worse? Glutamate or ammonia?

Thanks for bringing the OKG to my attention, I haven't looked at that one yet. Perhaps it is safer and more effective than strict AKG? I would be willing to try it in the future. Have you tried it?

 

[taroki]

Oh wow ... great post!

I also have the "tired but wired, anxiety, excess muscle tension along the spine and neck, brain fog, psychological fatigue, memory loss", especially the tight shoulders/neck part which when it was really bad I could not even sleep because it is so uncomfortable! Nothing seems to help, even detoxing lymph nodes would make it come right back. So it is from ammonia build up? Should I just use L-Ornithine and Yucca, or do I need Nitrous Oxide also to get rid of the tightness? According to this article it says "Avoid drugs which increase homocysteine such as Nitrous Oxide" : http://mthfr.net/mthfr-c677t-mutation-basic-protocol/2012/02/24/
I am waiting for my 23andMe test kit and I don't know my exact genome yet but I feel so excited whenever I try new supplements!

I also have seen many doctors/naturopaths and spent so much money trying to find out what is wrong with me. I have fibromyalgia, Aspergers, ADHD, Bipolar, very weak muscles, etc. Also had low side of normal blood pressure since I was a kid (fainting all of a sudden, disoriented getting up, etc).

 

[Gestalt]

According to this article it says "Avoid drugs which increase homocysteine such as Nitrous Oxide" : http://mthfr.net/mthfr-c677t-mutation-basic-protocol/2012/02/24/

Hmmm, I am not sure what the rationale behind that is (Dr.Ben) because one of the main pathways that detoxes ammonia is the NOS pathway which you can see on the methylation diagram in my 2nd post.

I also have seen many doctors/naturopaths and spent so much money trying to find out what is wrong with me. I have fibromyalgia, Aspergers, ADHD, Bipolar, very weak muscles, etc. Also had low side of normal blood pressure since I was a kid (fainting all of a sudden, disoriented getting up, etc).

One thing I recently learned is that I have Candida-fungus and it produces mycotoxins, Alcohol & CO2. The CO2 will definitely cause brain fog, and I think it's what is also partly behind the muscle tension issue in those of us who are SNS dominant. I took Candex and it got rid of my brain fog in 24hrs!!!, and also helped my muscles feel considerably more relaxed.

 

[taroki]

hmm ... interesting. I thought probiotics/caprylic acid gets rid of candida/yeast? Haven't heard of Candex before.

 

[Gestalt]

hmm ... interesting. I thought probiotics/caprylic acid gets rid of candida/yeast? Haven't heard of Candex before.

Those would help, but not nearly as much as the enzymes. It is the single best thing you can take and not experience die off symptoms, everything else is supplementary. Check out http://www.yeastinfectionadvisor.com/ for lots of good info.

 

[taroki]

Cool thanks, will check it out! I wonder if they carry it at the local stores here in Canada.

So when exactly would you take this vs. taking regular probiotics/caprylic acid?

 

[caledonia]

Oh wow ... great post!

I also have the "tired but wired, anxiety, excess muscle tension along the spine and neck, brain fog, psychological fatigue, memory loss", especially the tight shoulders/neck part which when it was really bad I could not even sleep because it is so uncomfortable! Nothing seems to help, even detoxing lymph nodes would make it come right back. So it is from ammonia build up? Should I just use L-Ornithine and Yucca, or do I need Nitrous Oxide also to get rid of the tightness? According to this article it says "Avoid drugs which increase homocysteine such as Nitrous Oxide" : http://mthfr.net/mthfr-c677t-mutation-basic-protocol/2012/02/24/
I am waiting for my 23andMe test kit and I don't know my exact genome yet but I feel so excited whenever I try new supplements!

I also have seen many doctors/naturopaths and spent so much money trying to find out what is wrong with me. I have fibromyalgia, Aspergers, ADHD, Bipolar, very weak muscles, etc. Also had low side of normal blood pressure since I was a kid (fainting all of a sudden, disoriented getting up, etc).

Tired but wired is probably GABA/glutamate imbalance. You can try taking theanine or GABA. Note GABA is more powerful than theanine, so where I was taking 2 theanines, I was only taking 1/2 GABA. I was taking those three times a day. I say "was" because my need for these cleared sometime after I started methylation.

Avoid nitrous oxide (as in anesthesia) unless you want to get much worse. It's not just Ben Lynch saying this; it's an observation common for ME/CFS patients.

The yucca would be for CBS and possibly BHMT mutations causing an overload on SUOX. There could also be SUOX mutations but 23andme doesn't cover that SNP.

I suggest waiting until your results are in before starting supplements (except maybe theanine/GABA), as it's easy to make yourself worse. If you're itching to get started, an overall functional test such as the Nutreval test can be very valuable information for guiding treatment.