Free Range vs. Caged Meat Production

[percyval577]

How would one know if an infection is going to "pop up"?

As I understand it, this problem was an entry for abuse. I personally am not an expert on infections, their diagnosis and evaluation, so will not be able to answere a technical question. (I should have said "come up", I am sorry.) The documentary was about germany. Maybe the laws have already been changed, I cannot remember when I have seen it in tv. My impression in the past was that abuse of antibiotcs have been an international problem, to some extent which I cannot not evaluate.

I know a small farmer, and - sadly - none of his children will carry on with the farm. It´s not that I don´t want to understand farmers. It´s that I don´t want to be responsible for chicken that have been bred too heavy for walking.
I have a greengrocer who sells special sausages. Sometimes they have been good, sometimes not. I don´t buy them anymore. I am sorry for those farmers who contributed to the sausages when they have been good. Later I spent all my money for expensive meat. Very occasionally I go to McDonalds. I have been told their meat ever is from milk cows. Is it true? It never was bad!!

 

[ebethc]

The EU banned the use of antibiotics as Growth Enhancers in 2006. The U.S. did too in 2017.

Of course,


Enforcement is the issue.

how do antibiotics increase growth? I've never understood this..

 

[Desertstorm]

A chicken has no idea what it's alternatives in terms of housing or feed are afterall, nor does a pig or a cow. Many folks simply assume they must because WE would. As such confinement agriculture becomes conflated with animal cruelty which is as far from the truth of the matter as could be. Thus we have pejorative terms thrown around based on emotion rather than knowledge.

I have extensive experience in pork production, and know a lot of chicken/egg producers and have two vets in the family. As I posted before, a "happy" animal is a healthy unstressed animal. In pork production for instance there was a push (as in CA and the UK) for outdoor only pig procreation by banning farrowing crates which are designed to save piglets from crushing. The result has been far more piglets killed within the first week, far more disease issues based on pathogens being spread from wild boar/birds and the fact that those pathogens remain in the soil vs being disinfected away in all in all out confinement production.

My basic point to start with was that when a carb, mixed with proper levels of plant protein and minerals/vitamins it is transformed into meat protein and fats. Modern meat production does not include animal proteins in the mix because of the long gone problems with "mad cow" disease which resulted from infected spinal and brain tissue being fed to other farm animals. It had nothing to do with corn, barley or soybean meal.

Am I picky about what meats/eggs I choose to buy? Sure. I like eggs with high fat bright orange yolks, which is a function of the amount of fat the hen is fed not how it is housed. I like beef with a nice marbled grain, so I buy an Angus steer each year which I know was finished on corn just down the road (we split it with our kids each year). I like pork that is not as richly marbled, but the Japanese pay a premium for breeds that are.

 

[percyval577]

I have a friend who very much likes animals. He has a cat, a dog and a even a horse (which has been mistreated by its former owner). He also very much likes eating meat.
Once I visited him and his dog behaved very originally while the pork already was in the pan. I said to him: "Now, you praise your dog for being so intelligent and witty, and say you therefore would never ever do any harm to him, but you are eating swines, which are intelligent animals as well, and they are proven to be as intelligent as dogs." "I know," he said a bit surprised, "it´s completly inconsistent." (Then we ate the pork.)

To assess the minds of animals might be difficult. But they do not behave very nice, well, sometimes they do.

I agree though, it´s a misconception that animals would be lucky when in wilderness. Maybe animals can have a joy, and corrosponding possibilities can even be served, by humans, also for animals under a roof which will be eaten. Most of an animal´s "good" life consists of an adequate behaviour to it´s own nature, at least until it is eaten by other animals or is starving, both of which is not seldom painful in nature, if it is not very painful. In nature life is often painful before the death approaches.

In human terms, if we humans want to mistreat other creatures, we diminsh possibilities of our own soul. Maybe some do not be aware of it, and then activists say too much, trying to care for their own soul somehow. After all, we are nevertheless part of the nature as well.

 

[pamojja]

Thus we have pejorative terms such as "concentration camp chickens" thrown around based on emotion rather than knowledge.

As I posted before, a "happy" animal is a healthy unstressed animal.

We probably have to agree to disagree here. 'Knowledge' without any feeling is as blind as emotions would be alone. I was only a 10 year old child, when I watched countless pigs and cows being brought to the butcher in my neighborhood. And it was really rare to see these animals in anything else than a full blown panic-attack, just before being killed.

All I knew at that age was that I wouldn't want to have such intense suffering inflicted just to be able to chew on my daily Schnitzel, I didn't care about anyway. But moreover, I just couldn't imagine that so many stress-hormones released just before slaughter, could be really nurturing anything than stress-hormones again.

There is no easy way out.

Would you like to elaborate? Because nothing easier than becoming a vegetarian, as I did from age 10. Though at age 41 due to a PAD I did regret not having done it more intelligently. Therefore the last 10 years I did add supplementation, daily organic grown eggs, weekly wild caught fish, and monthly beef from a farm I know they treat their animals well. There are very easy ways out on a personal level.

 

[Desertstorm]

There has been a ton of research on minimizing the stress on livestock during transport and slaughter. Simple things such as rounding off chutes rather than expecting animals to negotiate corners which create piling up. These measures are in place at farms and slaughter facilities for the very reason you noted. We used to slaughter our own pork, lamb, beef and chicken and it was always a bittersweet moment when the deed was done but it taught our kids where food came from and how we as humans are part of the natural cycle. Death is required for life, and the recycling of matter goes on!

It may seem counterintuitive to many these days but farmers, hunters and fishermen care greatly about animals. In Africa the only really sustainable wildlife populations are found in hunting concessions where hunter dollars fund anti poaching efforts and habitat preservation. In the US nearly all wildlife habitat and management is funded through a tax on outdoors equipment.

The issue about farmed fish is interesting, especially salmon in open sea netting. This was thought to be the answer in terms of sustainability back in the 80s but nothing could have been further from the truth. Such concentrations of fish result in huge concentrations of sea lice and a massive decline in wild salmon stocks. The only way fish farming is environmentally sustainable is if they are farmed in onshore tanks which can practice all in all out production including disinfecting of the tanks and UV sterilization of recycled water.

Eating meat, veganism, hunting, fishing, wearing fur or any choice in consumption is certainly a personal decision I would never wish to infringe on for anyone.

 

[percyval577]

@Desertstorm , I appreciate your writings, though don´t completly agree.

There has been a ton of research on minimizing the stress on livestock during transport and slaughter. Simple things such as rounding off chutes rather than expecting animals to negotiate corners which create piling up.

Yes, I am not up to date though. There are things which nowdays should and can be done, and are done, or are going to be done. I am more sceptical about transports though, I guess, they can fail more easily not to be bad. Many of them might not be necessary.

It may seem counterintuitive to many these days but farmers, hunters and fishermen care greatly about animals.

Yes, a lot are. I like animals too. I killed five animals by my own, four fishes, one chicken, not already a nice cow. Sometimes I really think we should educate ourselves better, and everyone who wants to eat meat should work on a dude farm for some months and kill some animals.( Maybe in the future it´ll be even possible.)

Am I picky about what meats/eggs I choose to buy? Sure. I like eggs with high fat bright orange yolks, which is a function of the amount of fat the hen is fed not how it is housed. I like beef with ...

When I was a child I had an uncle who had three chickens. The eggs of these chickens have been top eggs.
My experience with meat and eggs is, if they are cheap they can be easily not even worth the eating, especially meat. I don´t want to play in a lottery. When I thought, due to my illness, that I needed to eat high proteins only from meat, I soon began to spent quite some money for good meat, mostly organic. As I said, I knew a butcher, and all his conventional meat ever was very good, "not that stuff you can buy in the supermarket" as my uncle said about his eggs.

... ... Chickens are chickens.

I think it has been shown that crops are crops. Organic crops are not healthier than non-organic ones. It might well be wise not to do pollution (but also organic crops still need to be protected, wasn´t it copper that is often used? ...).
I am not sure if this applies to animal stuff. It´s really not my impression, instead one would better spent money for meat. Luckily I have stopped eating high proteins ... hopefully butter is butter ... ... ...

 

[Revel]

A chicken has no idea what it's alternatives in terms of housing or feed are afterall, nor does a pig or a cow

Neither would we, if raised the same way from birth.

Giving an animal choice, or free will, to live as it would prefer (with all the inherent risks of injury and disease that come with it) is not necessarily a show of "anthropomorphism". It can simply come down to the belief that animals have the right to express themselves as close to how nature intended as is practically possible.

Horses, when allowed "free rein" to decide whether to work or join their herd-mates at pasture, will more often show a preference for the latter (here), than be put under saddle. Animals have the ability to make choices, given options.

However, even the free-range, "natural" approach to farming usually has to make "unnatural" concessions - young goats and cattle are dehorned, male animals are often neutered, sexes are reared separately, etc, because living "as nature intended" can be stressful and potentially dangerous for the animals concerned.

Unfortunately, given the high demand for food to satisfy the ever-growing human population, mass production reigns, but we should to do this as ethically as possible. It just so happens that the better we manage this arrangement in terms of animal health and we!fare, the more profitable the enterprise.

There has been a ton of research on minimizing the stress on livestock during transport and slaughter. Simple things such as rounding off chutes rather than expecting animals to negotiate corners which create piling up.

We have made great strides in the design and implementation of handling facilities, thanks to Temple Grandin and others. However, I don't think we should be patting ourselves on the back just yet, especially when it comes transportation.

Although most countries now have welfare legislation in place (and not before time) with regard to rest stops, feeding and watering of animals in transit, it still isn't enough to counter the physical and mental stress on these animals during long haul journeys.

It is a shame that so many local abattoirs have closed down in favour of more profitable centralised meat processing plants, forcing farmers to send their animals much further from home than they would wish. I will refrain from recounting the too numerous preventable livestock transportation horror stories I have witnessed. We can, and should, do better.

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

how do antibiotics increase growth? I've never understood this..

Nor have I, until you asked.

Growth promoting antibiotics for animals

Antibiotics increase the efficiency of animal growth by inhibiting the growth of microbes in the gastrointestinal tract which triggers immune responses in the host (Gaskins et al., 2002).

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

There is no easy way out.

Would you like to elaborate?

Absolutely.

There are over 7 and a half billion people on this planet and feeding everyone is imperative. However, that involves very elaborate systems and disruptions can be deadly.

Changes are disruptive, and contrary to the interests of those currently benefiting from the status quo.

Yet, we have problems to solve with the way we feed ourselves. It is far from ideal, and for those who are already suffering ill health it is urgent. The antibiotic resistance issue is a good example of how incredibly short-sighted we, as a society, can be. I do believe that we can resolve these issues though.

In fact, we are. It's just not easy.

 

[pamojja]

There are over 7 and a half billion people on this planet and feeding everyone is imperative. However, that involves very elaborate systems and disruptions can be deadly.

The way it runs now will cause definite disruption and countless deaths in the next generations - our own children - considering our ecological footprint now. No other way to sabotage that global direction we all are taking, than very straightforward again on an individual personal level.

Eating meat, veganism, hunting, fishing, wearing fur or any choice in consumption is certainly a personal decision I would never wish to infringe on for anyone.

That I can fully agree with. I just wouldn't ever want to let go of my own ethical responsibility for my own decisions neither.