Fragmented sleep - too many dreams, not enough deep

[ChrisD]

I get to sleep Okay but wake up at 4/5am after very long dreams thinking it would be morning. Then it can take between 10-60mins to Get back to sleep and it's a very groggy half sleep with more dreams but little deep sleep.

I've had M.E. 6 years and it's always been somewhat like this but since 5 weeks ago when I tried Taxifolin (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/taxifolin-aka-russian-rejuvenator-dihydroquercetin.88734/) it has been so much more exaggerated and I feel like I've had very little deep sleep in 5 weeks.

I've tried almost everything, all the usual sleep remedies and medicines I have to hand including:
Rescue remedy sleep
Passionflower
Chamomile
Valerian
Nytol herbal
Nytol Benadryl
Loratidine/fexofenadine
Phenergan
Melatonin
Zopiclone and
Mirtazipine - 15mg keeps me asleep but unrefreshed and groggy.
Nortriptyline - works a bit but not enough.

Have also tried CBD and d limonene from the suggestions in the taxifolin thread.

Any suggestions would be most welcome

 

[Linaria]

Ah sleep like this is miserable, I’m sorry you’re experiencing it. I am prone to this type of sleeping as well- but with lucid/extremely vivid dreams- do you have that too?
Have you stopped the Taxafolin and the sleep issue remains?

Here are the things that help me with this type of sleep: consistently viewing the sunrise (or at least sunshine before 10am) and sunset (outside) for a minimum of 20mins, stretching hamstrings and hips lightly before bed, magnesium threonate and s small bit of cannabis before bed (edible or vape). If/when I wake up: a snack with carbs, ingest a small amount cannabis, use the bathroom, and back to bed (optional extra stretching). I’ll repeat the “wake up” routine as many times as needed until I can fall asleep.

As an aside, the thyroid can be involved in early waking patterns (amongst other things of course). I have swung from hyper to hypo thyroid, having so much fun (kidding!). Anyway, what has helped my thyroid (and sleep) tremendously is red light therapy- about every other day.

I hope some of this helps you!

 

[lenora]

Hello....I've had insomnia for so many years that I lost count many, many years ago. My problem is falling asleep to begin with and then I'm up at least twice/night.

I do know that in my case, at least, any changes at all in medications can take weeks to overcome. I think I'm just very sensitive in that area. Still, there are certain things I need and that's all there is to it. Just can't be changed.

I work on the computer during the hours I'm awake and contrary to popular wisdom, it actually helps me to fall asleep. My husband is a sound sleeper, so that a huge help.

I've tried multiple new mattresses and really think the perfect one doesn't exist for me. Too many aches, pains and general problems. Also hot/cold makes a big difference. We don't have any vents blowing on us at night and I do wear the purple foam earplugs. Blocking out sound allowed me to get some sleep.

I live this way.....have tried multiple things, both natural and medicines, and nothing works for more than one or two nights at most. My neurologist was incredibly understanding, but we came to the same conclusion....I had brain damage and nothing was going to matter. (Later confirmed by a neurosurgeon.) He is now deceased (my neurologist), so with him has gone so much of my history. No, it doesn't matter that it's written down. Most doctors don't take the lack of sleep seriously anyway.

Sleep clinics haven't been of any use and now I simply live with it. Do I want to? No, but I do like the special quiet of the night....a different time of day. I do make a point of being up at 9:00 a.m. or 9:30 a.m., sometimes earlier. I find that gives me my best chance of some sleep during the night.

It's a pest.....mg. (epsom salt) baths may help you....have you tried them? Yours, Lenora

 

[Linaria]

Oh, another thing that helped: lithium orotate. When my insomnia and anxiety were at their peak, my NP advised I try lithium orotate by biotics research- called “Li-Zyme Forte.” I took 1-3 spread throughout the day, then another 3 before bed. I titrated down as I felt more calm and able to rest. Also had to make sure I kept up Mg and boron/b2 while taking so much lithium.

Felt like a zombie the first week, but welcomed the semblance of calm. I went through 2 bottles, and decided I didn’t really need it high dose anymore- I was sleeping better. Stopped totally for a few months. Now, I take 1 tablet about 3x per week, mainly for anxiety.

Sending good wishes 🙌🏼

 

[Judee]

Most of the time if I try to go to bed before 2-3:00am I cannot sleep all the way through. The earlier I try to go to bed the worse it is affecting even my ability to fall asleep. I think that's because many of us here have sleep inversion or possibly Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_inversion
This first article talks about ammonia. I think a lot of us have a hard time clearing that. Also trypanosomias, which Dr Ron Davis said once is very nearly identical genetically to ME/CFS. Ornithine helps clear ammonia and some of the reviews on Amazon mention better sleep.

Also this second article is on DSPD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder which says,
"DSPD is often misdiagnosed as primary insomnia..."

and

"If they are allowed to follow their own schedules, e.g. sleeping from 4:00 am to 1:00 pm, their sleep is improved..."

That's what I've found for myself most of the time anyway. Of course, it can be a bummer sleeping during the daylight hours especially now that we just turned our clocks back for daylight savings time. It makes appointment scheduling difficult too.

Regarding other supplements, I've found that tart cherry works well although I still usually wake up half way through but then I just take some more. Recently I found that calcium hydroxyapatite does even more to help me with sleep. I just open the capsules and take a pinch of both.

One more thing...at least for me that Russian Rejuvinator made me feel worse and iirc more wired. I tried it twice but no dice. Oh, well.

Hope you can find something that works. Deep sleep is essential to brain healing.

 

[heapsreal]

I get to sleep Okay but wake up at 4/5am after very long dreams thinking it would be morning. Then it can take between 10-60mins to Get back to sleep and it's a very groggy half sleep with more dreams but little deep sleep.

I've had M.E. 6 years and it's always been somewhat like this but since 5 weeks ago when I tried Taxifolin (https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/taxifolin-aka-russian-rejuvenator-dihydroquercetin.88734/) it has been so much more exaggerated and I feel like I've had very little deep sleep in 5 weeks.

I've tried almost everything, all the usual sleep remedies and medicines I have to hand including:
Rescue remedy sleep
Passionflower
Chamomile
Valerian
Nytol herbal
Nytol Benadryl
Loratidine/fexofenadine
Phenergan
Melatonin
Zopiclone and
Mirtazipine - 15mg keeps me asleep but unrefreshed and groggy.
Nortriptyline - works a bit but not enough.

Have also tried CBD and d limonene from the suggestions in the taxifolin thread.

Any suggestions would be most welcome

Did the zopiclone and phenergan not work at all?

I got to the point where I noticed some drugs helped me fall asleep but not keep me asleep and others wouldn't put me to sleep but if I took something to help initiate sleep with it I'd sleep longer.

So I found things like the older style sedating antihistamines didn't really help me fall asleep but helped me maintain sleep. Benzo's but more so the Z drugs like zolpidem and zopiclone helped me to fall asleep. So I'd take a z drug with an antihistamine and it helped for along time. I did alternate what sleep initiators I used as well as sleep sustainers like different antihistamines.

The above system I used for several years and recently have changed what I do as my sleep had gone to crap and mefs weren't working like they once did. So now I use 20mg melatonin tablets and take between 60-100mg of melatonin and I take just 1 sleep Med to initiate sleep instead of 3 at a time I was last taking. This is all very recent experiment I've started but so far so good.

I never really thought of using such high doses until reading about more people doing so. I previously thought high doses were 10-20mg a night. Also read a study showing 10mg/kg of body weight as being quite safe.

 

[lenora]

Hello @Linaria....Your sleep regime is interesting. I can go 3-4 days without decent sleep. Since bipolar illness was so common in my family, I thought I may be one more patient.

As it turned out, I did see a psychiatrist who diagnoses only, and discovered that no, I didn't have bipolar illness. What I have is damage to the sleep center of the brain....this was confirmed by both my neurologist and neurosurgeon (I had brain surgery probably 35 yrs. ago). So I live in this 'nether' world but, as Judee pointed out the best time for sleep for me is generally around 4:00 a.m. on. Since the rest of the world operates in a different time frame, I'm up by 9:30 a.m. at the very latest, and sometimes before. I don't nap.

I've tried just about everything and I also suffer from severe anxiety/panic attacks. For years I fought it off myself, stayed on the most minor of drugs but finally had to move up to xanax, which has actually been heaven sent. I take two of the lowest doses available twice per day, morning and night, and this has helped tremendously for 10 years now. I also have even lower dose tablets for any breakthrough attacks....this is very rarely used, thankfully.

I would try what you suggested except for the anxiety issue. I'm afraid of mixing drugs. I suppose I could try it and see what the outcome would be....but I hate to tinker with something that works.

No, I still can't sleep properly and it's not a way I would choose to live. I still think there must be some connection between my lack of sleep and the bipolar illness in my family. It makes a certain amount of sense. However, I'm never overly depressed or in a manic state.

Heapsreal, I can't think of anything you could possibly try apart from going on heavy duty meds. I'll tell you that just about everything was tried on me (I was a volunteer test subject) and the most any drug would work for me amounted to one night and two if I happened to be fortunate. I gave them up long ago and live my life as best that I can. Even natural supplements have the same effect on me.....at one time I even considered ECT to see if that would help. I never did try, but I've often wondered. Thanks to all of you. Yours, Lenora

 

[Mary]

Also had to make sure I kept up Mg and boron/b2 while taking so much lithium.

@Linaria - does Mg stand for magnesium or manganese? And how much magnesium or manganese do you take? How much boron and B2?

I've tried lithium orotate (Swanson brand) but never noticed anything. However, I'm sure the Li-zyme forte is a better product and perhaps I wasn't taking enough. And I never took extra manganese (magnesium?) or boron or B2.

 

[lenora]

HI @Linaria.....Mg. is for magnesium and Mn. is for manganese. Hope this helps answer Mary's question. Yours Lenora

 

[Linaria]

@Mary @lenora I am sorry for the late reply! I should have specified, I meant Mg for magnesium, threonate specifically, and I take 100mg about 2x per week now. For the b2, about 12mg (1/3 cap of thorne brand R5P), and for the boron, I use 20 mule team Borax powder, roughly 1/4 teaspoon. I’ve totally stopped the lithium now though- I think I’ve topped up my body’s storage enough for a while- it started to really tank boron and make me feel badly. The b2 requires more boron too, so I decided to slow down and let things rebalance. I’ve been ingesting cannabis and supplementing vitamins about 2x per week now.

I’ve been learning a lot about vit A toxicity, have been upping my fiber intake a lot, lowering vit A intake, continuing the LED red light, and doing lymph yoga daily. I have felt many changes! The lymph is moving indeed. My mental clarity and energy have increased noticeably, which has been great!
I promise to check any questions/mentions sooner this time

 

[Manjushri]

For sleep quality supplement-wise I find Ashwagandha 10% to be essential; and prescription-wise I take Pregabalin 75mg, which is about as good as you can get pharmacological-wise for increasing slow wave sleep sans GHB (as Xyrem is too expensive for us even though it has been shown to be helpful due to Jazz Pharma's greediness making something that costs a few quid on the street cost the NHS literally thousands for a month's worth).

Aside from melatonin 0.3mg-1mg, every other sleep-inducer has had a negative effect on my sleep quality or gave grogginess the following day.

 

[Manjushri]

*Ashwagandha 10% withanolides; it needs to be 5% withanolides or above to be effective according to studies.

 

[Wishful]

I recently wondered whether I should buy some chamomile tea to try, but when I did a quick search online, I thought it rather amusing that many of the comments on chamomile were along the lines of "Lots of people claim that it helps sleep ... but to date there's no hard evidence to support it." The same was for lavender oil. Since good sleep is so important, and there are so many claims for these herbal treatments for so long, shouldn't there be at least some studies done on their effectiveness? To me, the lack of positive clinical results says that they don't actually work.

Also, I noticed that chamomile was supposed to work by increasing melatonin. Well, melatonin tablets, which I expect would deliver far more melatonin to the appropriate brain cells, don't really help me sleep better, and leaves me groggy the next day, so a "boosts melatonin" tea is not appealing.

BTW, I decided not to waste money on chamomile or lavender.

 

[lenora]

You should give chamomile tea a chance, Wishful. Even if things are researched to death, they have different affects on different people. Who knows how it will work for you....I find it all a matter of trial and error.

Give it a try and report back to us. You may have a pleasant surprise. Yours, Lenora

 

[*GG*]

I used to be this way when I started Remeron/mirtazapine, I hadn't dreamed in years. Is that the case with you? Haven't been on this compound for long?

GG

 

[lenora]

Hi *GG*........I don't know who the above was addressed to but in my case, if I fall asleep, I do dream - at least most of the time.

As I've said before, I sleep better in the winter than the summer. How are you doing, and what were the results of your CCI surgery? Yours, Lenora

 

[Judee]

Found this article in my bookmarks: https://neuroscience.berkeley.edu/copper-in-the-brain/

"How could copper affect sleep-activity cycles? The researchers propose that the enzyme dopamine β-hydroxylase (DBH)—which is found in high levels in the LC—is an important link between the mineral and the behavior. DBH requires copper to synthesize the neurotransmitter norepinephrine (NE) from dopamine (DA). They found that the copper-deficient mutants had a 37% decrease in their NE/DA ratio—indicating that copper may normally regulate sleep-activity cycles in the LC by promoting production of NE. Indeed, when the researchers increased NE at synapses in copper-deficient mutants using a NE reuptake inhibitor, their circadian pattern of behavior returned to normal."

It's a study on Zebra fish but they conclude by saying, "The discovery of this copper-dependent pathway may lead to better understanding and treatment of human sleep disorders..."

Not so sure just taking a little copper (too much can be toxic) will help though. @linusbert, I saw you mentioned copper recently. Do you think it helped with your sleep?

Edit: Sorry, @linusbert, just re-read your comments and noticed you said you can't take it.
Could you do something like wear a copper bracelet or try copper peptides that just go on the skin? (Just a thought.)

 

[linusbert]

Not so sure just taking a little copper (too much can be toxic) will help though. @linusbert, I saw you mentioned copper recently. Do you think it helped with your sleep?

Edit: Sorry, @linusbert, just re-read your comments and noticed you said you can't take it.
Could you do something like wear a copper bracelet or try copper peptides that just go on the skin? (Just a thought.)

i do take a few drops of colloidal copper since a few days. not sure yet about how it works.

my sleep is ok though.

 

[Rich D]

High THC indica marijuana works well much of the time for me. Though I still have quite fragmented sleep and racing thoughts and dreams. I’m about to try Guanfacine, you might look into that.