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For anyone who has previously done an Enema.. Question about Enema sensation.

Messages
75
Long story short, dealing with H2S SIBO, have been for a number of years. Also seem to have symptoms that may be occuring due to LPS leaking into blood stream. Tried Rifaxmin, no effect. Have tried all kinds of diets etc, can offset H2S symptoms with low sulfur/cystein/sulfite diet, but still dealing with LPS symptoms.

April 2019, had a very obscure bout of diarrhea, with the most intense need to go to the toilet. Was doing a keto diet and for illogical reasons, decided to cut all my electrolytes in diet that week. I assume I induced such an electrolyte imbalance that it caused the watery diarrhea, and the intensity presumably to do with a spasming of the entire bowel. Regardless, after that bout, ALL of my symptoms were entirely gone. Ultimately they came back.

The only other thing i've tried that helped so far, was metoclomapride. Trialed for only a few days on Gastro's advice, 48-60 hours in, symptoms started to lift, but only had 5 day course. Can't use Metoclomapride long term due to safety issues. I have just attained some Prucalopride to trial myself, given metroclomapride working.

It seems to me my upper gut is just a little stagnant / not clearing properly, hence build up of bacteria in small intestine (SIBO). Probiotics worsen by symptoms, which leads me to believe its commensal bacteria. Also stool testing shows no presence of any concerning pathogenic bacteria/fungi/parasites etc.

I have tried to recreate the level of urgent diarrhea that occured in April 2019 with no avail (2 Sachets of Picolax, 25g single dose of chewable vitamin, super high dose sugar alcohol ingestion, salt flush, castor oil) - all of those things give me diarrhea, but do not cause the level of urgency I experienced in April 2019 (I can easily withhold it, there's no real 'need' for me to go, whereas in APril 2019, it was coming out and no one was stopping it lol!)

Now my conclusion has always been this: electrolyte imbalance due to my radical diet changes caused the diarrhea and intestinal spasm-ing, which inadvertently cleared the small intestine. Alas, symptoms entirely gone. But inevitable relapse over time as bacteria builds back up due to underlying cause of MMC impairement not addressed. Now the issue is, whatever occured in that day, I can't seem to recreate, but the fact that metoclomapride provided benefit, suggests the mechanism is likely correct.

Now to my actual question.. The only other theory I question about April 2019, was that, AFTER the bowel clearing, my digestion felt super normal (normally it feels like food passes slow, appetite takes a long time to arise, can very easily subside on little food if only eating to appetite.) The likely hood is, that my prior theory is probably what happened, and thus the benefit isn't repeatable.

But - something I came to wonder the other day was this. When the urgency occured, I was on my way to my job at the time, I used every ounce of will and strength in my body and soul that day not to soil my car.. I had to spend about 20 minutes holding back this uncontrollable need to defecate, and somehow by some kind of miracle, I made it to the toilet in time.. just.. literally (lol)


Given that the vagus nerve seems to play a role in MMC function and possibly SIBO, I do question if the underlying cause of my SIBO and upper gut dysfunction (given the lack of any other obvious cause after COMPREHENSIVE testing), is poor vagal tone.

In my research on how to stimulate the vagus nerve, some sources claim that the use of an Enema, more specifically the effort to hold an enema before releasing it, can be a means of vagal stimulation.

SO I did come to question recently, whether or not the act of holding back this urgent diarrhea, and bearing down on my gut so intensely for 20 minutes or so, by some chance caused some extreme stimulation of my vagus nerve. The reason I wonder this, is because my digestion felt so so normal for a period after having the incident (akin to the way it felt on metoclomapride.)

Given that my attemps to recreate the urgent need to defecate have all failed, I can't recreate this scenario where I'm holding back an urgent bowel movement to see if doing so, might so how cause a similar result by means of vagal stimulation.

So my question with regards to Enemas is:

Is an enema 'difficult' to hold back? Does holding an enema feeling like resisting the urgent need to defecate? And does it create an urgency such that it's almost impossible for anyone to hold it for say, more than 30 minutes?


If anyone who has done an enema can advise me on that, that would be hugely appreciated.

I know this is pretty wild speculative theory, but I've got to cover all bases for my own sake.. and if it seems worth it, I may order a home enema kit and give it a go.

Thanks all!
 

Pyrrhus

Senior Member
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4,172
Location
U.S., Earth
Given that the vagus nerve seems to play a role in MMC function and possibly SIBO, I do question if the underlying cause of my SIBO and upper gut dysfunction (given the lack of any other obvious cause after COMPREHENSIVE testing), is poor vagal tone.

Given your experience with metoclopramide, I would say yes, it's probably poor vagal tone.

Is an enema 'difficult' to hold back? Does holding an enema feeling like resisting the urgent need to defecate? And does it create an urgency such that it's almost impossible for anyone to hold it for say, more than 30 minutes?

Yes. And there are other techniques out there to stimulate the vagus nerve. (just google "vagus nerve stimulation")

But if your poor vagal tone is due to inflammation or infection of the vagus nerve itself, these techniques to stimulate the vagus nerve may induce vagal PEM, which might include cramping, constipation, or diarrhea.

Hope this helps.
 
Messages
75
Given your experience with metoclopramide, I would say yes, it's probably poor vagal tone.



Yes. And there are other techniques out there to stimulate the vagus nerve. (just google "vagus nerve stimulation")

But if your poor vagal tone is due to inflammation or infection of the vagus nerve itself, these techniques to stimulate the vagus nerve may induce vagal PEM, which might include cramping, constipation, or diarrhea.

Hope this helps.

I would honestly say if its vagus nerve issue, jts likely prolonged stress.

I've looked into the other techniques, what interest me about the enema is its a bottom up stimulation, vs top down eg gargling water.

Would it actually be possible to hold an enema for 30+ minutes? Or is so intense after a point that no one could keep it in?
 

Pyrrhus

Senior Member
Messages
4,172
Location
U.S., Earth
Would it actually be possible to hold an enema for 30+ minutes? Or is so intense after a point that no one could keep it in?

I really doubt it. But there may be someone out there who has treated it like an Olympic sport and mastered the technique...

Hope this helps.
 
Messages
75
Well, the kit arrived today.. so I had a go.

I went for 900ml of plain water (spring water), warmed up to 40 degrees celcius so it was around body temperature..

Managed to hold it for 5 minutes, and couldn't possibly any longer..

Attempted a second attempt, with a mere 450-500ml at the same temperature, that time I didn't even hold it for a minute.

WOW, that was intense. That however, was the exact same sensation that I experienced last April.. I can only assume that because I threw my electrolytes off so much, my body suddenly just dumped a ton of water in my colon, which is what created that effect. (April 2019)

Why on earth that caused a total remission remains to be seen.. If it was resisting the urge to go for so long causing extreme vagal stimulation, then I'm not sure my efforts today will have been suffice.

I'm going to see how I feel across the rest of day/tomorrow, then will re-evaluate. If no result, then I figure I'll have to have another go, but really force myself to hold it longer.

Does anyone have any tips on how to keep the urgency/sensation, but possibly make it a tiny bit more manageable? I honestly don't know if I could of ever held this longer than 5 minutes.. Unless I really just need more will power lol.
 

Pyrrhus

Senior Member
Messages
4,172
Location
U.S., Earth
WOW, that was intense.
I'm going to see how I feel across the rest of day/tomorrow, then will re-evaluate. If no result, then I figure I'll have to have another go, but really force myself to hold it longer.

Congratulations, I think. :thumbsup: o_O

Note that holding in plain water for an extended period may extract electrolytes from the body.
From Wikipedia:
Wikipedia said:
Normal saline is least irritating to the colon, at the opposite end of the spectrum. Like plain water, it simply functions mechanically to expand the colon, but having a neutral concentration gradient, it neither draws electrolytes from the body, as happens with plain water, nor draws water into the colon, as occurs with phosphates. Thus, a salt water solution can be used when a longer period of retention is desired, such as to soften an impaction.
 
Messages
75
Congratulations, I think. :thumbsup: o_O

Note that holding in plain water for an extended period may extract electrolytes from the body.
From Wikipedia:


Good shout.. Could I use regular sea salt? I was thinking maybe 15g of Sea Salt dissolved in water, similar to the mixture used for a 'salt flush' - would that be okay?
 

PatJ

Forum Support Assistant
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5,288
Location
Canada
Whenever I've done an enema I've used 2 teaspoons of sea salt to 1 liter of water to create a saline solution.

Letting the solution flow in slowly is key for me, with frequent short breaks, otherwise I get the urge for the solution to shoot right back out. I also gently massaged the abdomen, from lower left, upward, and across to the right (from my vantage point looking down) to get the solution high into the colon.

Apparently some people can hold it for 40 minutes or more. I think I maxed out at 20-30 minutes last time.

"Least irritating to the colon, at the opposite end of the spectrum, is isotonic saline solution. Having a neutral concentration gradient, it neither draws electrolytes from the body, as happens with plain water, nor draws water into the colon, as occurs with phosphates. Thus, a salt water solution can be used when a longer period of retention is desired, such as to soften an impaction." Wikipedia

Here's a useful site about enemas: https://flowingfree.org/everything-...ing-yourself-an-enema-and-were-afraid-to-ask/
 
Messages
75
Whenever I've done an enema I've used 2 teaspoons of sea salt to 1 liter of water to create a saline solution.

Letting the solution flow in slowly is key for me, with frequent short breaks, otherwise I get the urge for the solution to shoot right back out. I also gently massaged the abdomen, from lower left, upward, and across to the right (from my vantage point looking down) to get the solution high into the colon.

Apparently some people can hold it for 40 minutes or more. I think I maxed out at 20-30 minutes last time.




Here's a useful site about enemas: https://flowingfree.org/everything-...ing-yourself-an-enema-and-were-afraid-to-ask/

Okay, so saline solution and going slower with it sounds like the plan for tomorrow. I released the original 950ml in one go with a wide open valve lol! It probably only took 30 seconds for the entire volume to go in! So although I do want to create a somewhat urgent need to release, maybe this was a little too much!

20-30 minutes is my goal as I feel that gives me an approximate recreation of what happened last April.

Does there come a point where the fluid just absorbs if you hold it too long? Or with a saline solution as described above, is it ultimately just going to sit in the bowel until its released?
 

PatJ

Forum Support Assistant
Messages
5,288
Location
Canada
Does there come a point where the fluid just absorbs if you hold it too long? Or with a saline solution as described above, is it ultimately just going to sit in the bowel until its released?

Plain water will be absorbed but saline solution supposedly just sits. If someone was very dehydrated I expect some of the saline solution might be absorbed but I'm not sure.

With a high enema sometimes a certain amount of solution comes out and then the rest comes out after something like 10-60 minutes.
 
Messages
75
Plain water will be absorbed but saline solution supposedly just sits. If someone was very dehydrated I expect some of the saline solution might be absorbed but I'm not sure.

With a high enema sometimes a certain amount of solution comes out and then the rest comes out after something like 10-60 minutes.

Interestingly when I tried the Enema this morning using a saline solution, I didn't get anywhere near the same urgency. In fact, I held it for 20 minutes and it was pretty easy. (Felt similar to the sensation of doing the salt flush, which for me oddly doesn't produce a hugely urgent sensation.)

It certainly seemed that the bout of sudden urgent diarrhea in April 2019 was induced by throwing off my electrolyte balance, but maybe that's why using plain water creates the same sensation vs saline not (due to the imbalance of electrolytes between the blood and the water.)

So I guess if I'm going to try and recreate what happened in April '19 to see if I can achieve the same effect, I'm going to do have to do with plain water again - and just summon the will of the gods to allow me to hold it for 20 minutes lol!