• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

First try at Active Protocol and have questions.

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
Hi Jason, I have been searching and for whatever reason, I am not very skilled at finding journal articles :bang-head:. I had multiple articles re: VGCC autoantibodies in 2016, in addition to the info from three Neuros, and wish I could find the links to show you and plan to keep looking.

In a quick search I found this:

https://www.aacc.org/publications/cln/articles/2012/march/autoantibody-markers.aspx

which says:

Up to 95% of LEMS-positive sera also contain anti-P/Q type autoantibodies, but results from conventional immunoassays correlate poorly with disease severity.

I also just found this one:

http://www.cancertherapyadvisor.com...ndrome-eaton-lambert-syndrome/article/599936/

which says:

VGCC antibody titers do not correlate with disease severity, but the levels of these antibodies may decrease substantially in patients being treated with immunotherapy.

Hope this helps!
 

JasonUT

Senior Member
Messages
303
I'm not a perfect match for LEMS and had profound upper body weakness (neck, shoulders, arms, lungs) etc, vs. lower body weakness which seems to be the most common in LEMS. I am also positive for the N-type CA+ Channel autoantibody (vs. the P/Q type which is most common in LEMS) but it seems that you are also only positive for the N-type vs. P/Q type?
  • N-type calcium channel Ab (VGCC) 0.10 (normal < 0.03)
  • Neuronal K+ channel Ab (VGKC) 0.07 (normal < 0.02)
Did you have an EMG which led to your diagnosis?
I did not do an EMG. Doc felt like he had enough data to support LEMS diagnoses and get IVIG approved.

Do your doctors think that you have POTS and LEMS or that the POTS and autonomic dysfunction are PART of the LEMS? Do you have muscle weakness (arms, legs, or both?) or breathing weakness or only POTS & autonomic dysfunction?
I think my docs are hoping that my POTS/Dysautonomia is a symptom of LEMS. I have mostly leg weakness, but do experience arm weakness when my symptoms flare. Yes, I do have breathing weakness which seems to happen when I get tachy and OI gets bad.

You mentioned having "annoying non-specific symptoms that fall under the massive umbrella that is Dysautonomia" and I was curious what they were?
Mostly GI and cognitive issues plus all the standard LEMS symptoms.

Are you only authorized for one IVIG cycle to see how you tolerate it before they ask for more?
I am approved for 6 infusion sessions total. Doc wants me to start with 4 infusion cycles and see how I tolerate it.
 

JasonUT

Senior Member
Messages
303
First 4 IVIG sessions:
  1. 1st session was uneventful. I didn't feel anything and no side effects
  2. 2nd session was uneventful, but that night I did get a strange headache and slight nausea.
  3. 3rd session went smooth, but on the way home I started getting chills and aches.
  4. 4th session my veins decided to misbehave. It took them four tries to get the IV in correctly.
Observations:
  1. Sessions 1 thru 3. Strangely, I was very hungry during the infusion and snacked the whole time and was still hungry for lunch after. Session 4 I still felt sick from session 3 and didn't have an appetite.
  2. Overall, I feel like I have a bit more energy, I feel calmer, and I think my sleep has improved a little. However, I seem to have more headaches, aches, and chills. It has only been 3 days since my last infusion and I don't think that is enough time to jump to any accurate conclusions.
  3. I think I want to continue IVIG and see if this leads anywhere.
Notes:
  • Successful treatment of postural orthostatic tachycardia and mast cell activation syndromes using naltrexone, immunoglobulin and antibiotic treatment - Link
  • This study suggests that first signs of response to IVIG average 5.3 weeks and a minimum treatment should be 4 months of at least 1 gm/kg.
    Intravenous Immunoglobulin Therapy in Refractory Autoimmune Dysautonomias: A Retrospective Analysis of 38 Patients. - Link
  • This study says the average IVIG therapy was 28 ± 25 months. The article appears to suggest that healing nerves can take a long time. IVIG for apparently autoimmune small-fiber polyneuropathy: first analysis of efficacy and safety - Link
Questions:
  1. What is a reasonable response time for IVIG? What are realistic expectations?
  2. Nutritionist and Functional Med Doc both recommend I consider LDN as a compliment to IVIG. Does anyone have any experience with LDN and IVIG together?
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@JasonUT Thank you for the update and I really enjoy reading about your experience which is very similar to mine in many ways.

I did not do an EMG. Doc felt like he had enough data to support LEMS diagnoses and get IVIG approved.

I did an EMG/NCT in 2016 (after testing positive for the CA+ Channel Ab and several others) which was abnormal but was negative for LEMS. But it was poorly administered and was not the single fiber EMG which is the gold standard for LEMS. In any case, my doctor also felt that we had enough data to get IVIG approved without a positive EMG and he was right.

I think my docs are hoping that my POTS/Dysautonomia is a symptom of LEMS. I have mostly leg weakness, but do experience arm weakness when my symptoms flare. Yes, I do have breathing weakness which seems to happen when I get tachy and OI gets bad.

That is interesting and I have been diagnosed with "Autoimmune POTS" but I remain unclear if it is a symptom of LEMS or completely unrelated. I am going to send you a PM b/c I am very curious who your doctors are (and apologize if you have posted this info and I forgot)!

I had severe arm, neck, lungs, diaphragm and upper body weakness but somehow my legs were okay which is why my case was so atypical. Are you able to pass a PFT or spirometry test since you said that you do have breathing weakness?

I am approved for 6 infusion sessions total. Doc wants me to start with 4 infusion cycles and see how I tolerate it.

When my doc first fought to get IVIG approved for me in 2016, my insurance gave me ONE infusion. It was ridiculous and then when my doctor kept fighting, they approved three infusions. Finally they saw we were not going away and they started approving me for 3-6 months at a time but they really made us work for it.

However, I seem to have more headaches, aches, and chills. It has only been 3 days since my last infusion and I don't think that is enough time to jump to any accurate conclusions.

It is 100% normal and to be expected that you will get a headache, body aches, chills, etc, from IVIG and the reaction is usually delayed. This is a normal side effect and does NOT mean you are getting worse. It is way too early (one cycle) to jump to any conclusions like you said.

I think I want to continue IVIG and see if this leads anywhere.

I agree and hope that you will get the opportunity to do so.

This study says the average IVIG therapy was 28 ± 25 months.

Thank you for linking all of those studies and I did two full years (24 months) of IVIG (and was done as of July 2018). Although we started with a low dose (24 grams) and built up to 36, then 55 and then my final dose of 82 grams in a 3-day split cycle.

Questions:
  1. What is a reasonable response time for IVIG? What are realistic expectations?
  2. Nutritionist and Functional Med Doc both recommend I consider LDN as a compliment to IVIG. Does anyone have any experience with LDN and IVIG together?

It is so hard to know what is considered a reasonable response time since we are all so different! I had an immediate improvement in my allergic reactions and it very quickly put my MCAS into remission. The other improvements were slower to happen.

I tried LDN in 2014 (two years prior to IVIG) but did not tolerate it at all. Many people do well with it but I was not one of them!
 

JasonUT

Senior Member
Messages
303
I had severe arm, neck, lungs, diaphragm and upper body weakness but somehow my legs were okay which is why my case was so atypical. Are you able to pass a PFT or spirometry test since you said that you do have breathing weakness?
I did not have any PFT or spirometry testing. I could resolve my labored breathing issues by laying down to address the OI and tachycardia.


When my doc first fought to get IVIG approved for me in 2016, my insurance gave me ONE infusion. It was ridiculous and then when my doctor kept fighting, they approved three infusions. Finally they saw we were not going away and they started approving me for 3-6 months at a time but they really made us work for it.
It's so ridiculous. I started getting my first noticeable side effects after my 3rd infusion. Nurse suggested that maybe 90 grams is the required therapeutic dose for me. I'll have to talk to the doc to determine what kind of follow-up infusions I might need to maintain a sufficient therapeutic dose.

It is 100% normal and to be expected that you will get a headache, body aches, chills, etc, from IVIG and the reaction is usually delayed. This is a normal side effect and does NOT mean you are getting worse. It is way too early (one cycle) to jump to any conclusions like you said.
How long would your side effects last post infusions?
How many infusions did you complete before you were 100% confident that the infusions were making a true difference for you?
How long did the infusion continue to heal you? At what point did you reach the maximum benefit?

It is so hard to know what is considered a reasonable response time since we are all so different! I had an immediate improvement in my allergic reactions and it very quickly put my MCAS into remission. The other improvements were slower to happen.
Do you mind providing more details about your improvements and healing? Currently, it appears that my immediate response continues to be slightly improved energy, improved relaxation and calm, better sleep, and slightly improved appetite. I continue to have problems with chills, aches, pains, and headaches after 5 days. We are all unique and the nervous system seems to heal very slow. If these IVIG infusions truly work, then I must mentally prepare myself for a very long healing process and likely many battles with the insurance company.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
I did not have any PFT or spirometry testing. I could resolve my labored breathing issues by laying down to address the OI and tachycardia.

Thx and I was just curious if you had done any PFT or spirometry testing, and more specifically if it showed pulmonary restriction due to muscle weakness, like it did in my case. I was also able to resolve OI and tachycardia by lying down, and I was even okay sitting, but I was not able to stand or walk prior to treatments.

I started getting my first noticeable side effects after my 3rd infusion. Nurse suggested that maybe 90 grams is the required therapeutic dose for me. I'll have to talk to the doc to determine what kind of follow-up infusions I might need to maintain a sufficient therapeutic dose.

I hope I can explain this well but my understanding (and my experience) is that every batch of IVIG is different and some can trigger severe headaches and immune reactions and others can be mild. It would not necessarily correlate with the dose that you had BUT it could absolutely correlate to the infusion speed being too fast.

I had a few IVIG cycles where I had an excruciating headache, neck stiffness, chills, muscle pain, etc, by the end of the first day (total of 27.3 grams) and then by the end of the second day (total of 55 grams), I was so sick from it that I had to cancel the third day per my doctor. But I had many other IVIG cycles where I did the full three days (82 grams) and I was fine but then had a delayed immune reaction 24-48 hours later.

Sometimes the reaction was very mild and other times, I was very ill. I would not assume that 90 grams is your maximum dose based on the side effects alone BUT if you are already doing 3-4 day cycles at a slow infusion speed, I agree that there is only so much that a person is capable of doing and that might be the maximum dose you can tolerate. I have no idea if that made sense?!

How long would your side effects last post infusions?

It really varied but once the reaction started, it usually took at least 3-4 days to completely dissipate (unless it was a very mild batch/reaction).

How many infusions did you complete before you were 100% confident that the infusions were making a true difference for you?

I regret that I did not keep better records but I noticed VERY early into IVIG that it put my MCAS reactions to food and smells into remission. I was already on a solid MCAS medication protocol but I was still having allergic reactions to food and had to take Atarax (my rescue med) very frequently. Very early into IVIG, the allergic reactions stopped and they have never returned (and I stopped IVIG almost four months ago).

It was unmistakable and somehow the IVIG re-set my immune system away from the allergic reactions and anaphylaxis. If I had to guess, I would say that this occurred by the second to third dose (I was initially only approved for one day of IVIG at a time and the 2-day cycles did not start until the 4th month and the 3-day cycles did not start until the 6th month).

How long did the infusion continue to heal you? At what point did you reach the maximum benefit?

They continued to heal me the entire two years that I did them. Once we added the Rituximab, and other long-standing intractable symptoms started improving, we started to reduce the IVIG interval. We reduced it from 3 wks to 4 wks, 5 wks, 6 wks, 7 wks and finally to 8 wks. Once I was at an 8-wk interval with no return of symptoms, we felt confident that the Rituximab alone was maintaining my remission and we stopped the IVIG (in July 2018).

Do you mind providing more details about your improvements and healing? Currently, it appears that my immediate response continues to be slightly improved energy, improved relaxation and calm, better sleep, and slightly improved appetite. I continue to have problems with chills, aches, pains, and headaches after 5 days.

Do you mean that chills, aches, pains and headaches have been an ongoing problem for you (prior to IVIG) or did you mean that these are the side effects from IVIG? If side effects, this is totally normal and sadly just part of doing IVIG. I knew they were going to happen so I tried not to schedule anything important in the days after each 3-day cycle so I could rest and recover (but this was not always realistic due to family situations).

The three things that I noticed almost immediately from IVIG was that it put my MCAS into remission, it completely eliminated an insanely exaggerated "startle reflex" that had tortured me for several years, and I had some improvement in muscle strength (opening bottles, cutting paper with a scissors, turning on water faucets, etc).

But the major improvements that led to being able to stand and walk without wheelchair, drive my car, walk my dog, begin PT & Pilates, and my severe POTS going into remission, did not occur until after I was well into the year of Rituximab. I really am kicking myself that I did not keep better records but I was so sick at the time and then my mom got sick and passed away.

If these IVIG infusions truly work, then I must mentally prepare myself for a very long healing process and likely many battles with the insurance company.

They were worth it for me and I actually did have to mentally prepare that it was going to be a long process with many insurance battles. As of today, my entire two years of IVIG were retro-actively denied by my insurance and had to be re-billed by the hospital and infusion center. I believe it will be corrected but the situation is still not resolved and I finished IVIG almost four months ago!
 

JasonUT

Senior Member
Messages
303
IVIG Update:
Initially my IVIG response seemed rather benign. Some minor improvements in OI and I definitely feel more clam and relaxed. I am also experiencing a much reduced startle reflex. I have been able to fall asleep without earplugs and with the lights on. I haven't been able to do this in years.

However, 1.5 weeks later I am having significant side effects. The flu like feelings are terrible. Unmedicated my temperature is hitting 104.3F. I am having to take Advil and Tylenol to keep my temperature and symptoms down. Doc says this could last for 1 to 2 weeks. I hope this doesn't derail future IVIG treatment. Do side effects reduce with time and future IVIG? Will my body get used to IVIG and build a tolerance?
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
Initially my IVIG response seemed rather benign. Some minor improvements in OI and I definitely feel more clam and relaxed. I am also experiencing a much reduced startle reflex. I have been able to fall asleep without earplugs and with the lights on. I haven't been able to do this in years.

This all sounds very promising!

However, 1.5 weeks later I am having significant side effects. The flu like feelings are terrible. Unmedicated my temperature is hitting 104.3F.

Wow, I never had a fever even remotely that high from IVIG and am wondering if it is related in your case (or if you some how got sick with an actual flu)? I often got an immune reaction from IVIG in which I felt feverish and had chills but my temp was normal. I called this the "fake fever" from IVIG. When I did have a true fever from IVIG, it was usually around 99 degrees and I can only think of one incident in which it hit around 100.2. (My normal temp, however, runs very low (around 96 to 97) due to Dysautonomia and Hashimoto's).

I hope this doesn't derail future IVIG treatment. Do side effects reduce with time and future IVIG? Will my body get used to IVIG and build a tolerance?

I found that each batch of IVIG was different and some had mild headache and immune reaction and others were more severe. There was one batch that was so bad for me that the pharmacist (at my infusion center) kept track of the lot numbers and made sure that I never got it again. I never "built up a tolerance" to IVIG or the side effects.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
Doc says I'm having an aseptic meningitis adverse event. This is not fun at all.

Ugh, Jason, that is horrible and I hope you feel better soon. Did you go to the ER? Can you remind me what your infusion speed was for the IVIG?
 

JasonUT

Senior Member
Messages
303
Ugh, Jason, that is horrible and I hope you feel better soon. Did you go to the ER? Can you remind me what your infusion speed was for the IVIG?

I did not go to the ER. I went to an urgent care facility at the hospital. They completed some basic CBC and nasal swab testing to rule out flu, strep, check WBC, blood count, and other blood makers. They did not do a CSF test.

I don't know the infusion speed. They started slow and would increase infusion rate every 20-30 minutes. Each day, a 30g dose was infused over about 3 hours.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
Each day, a 30g dose was infused over about 3 hours.

This is a very fast infusion speed. My infusion speed for IVIG was 40 and each day of the cycle was 27.3 grams and it took approx 7-8 hours. I know this is incredibly slow but it was the only way that I could have physically tolerated it. A slower infusion speed reduces the severity of the IVIG headache and also reduces risk of aseptic meningitis, blood clots, strokes, and potential allergic reactions.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
[USER=15021]@Gingergrrl: Just curious, did you have normal immunoglobulins in regular blood work, was there anything in the regular blood work which showed up? I think you said your lgM was elevated @Gingergrrl? Thanks[/USER]

@renski I had normal levels on IgG sub-classes (except for 1-2 tests several years back in which I was low in IgG sub-class 3).

However, I had elevated IgE (and still do) and strangely had elevated IgM for several years. My doctors were not concerned about the IgE (b/c of allergies/MCAS) but they were concerned about the IgM which we kept monitoring. For several years the IgM stayed elevated and then it started to go up even further!

At that point, my main doctor ran some very specific panels (of both blood and urine) to make sure that the elevated IgM was not MGUS (or worse that it was not due to cancer such a multiple myeloma). All of the panels came back normal so my doctor felt the elevated IgM was due to autoimmunity.

On my most recent tests, the IgM is now in the normal range. I am assuming it is b/c the autoimmunity itself is now in remission but I do not know this for sure and it could be a coincidence or due to some other unknown factor.
 

JasonUT

Senior Member
Messages
303
I have been away for a long time living life. December, January, and February were very good months. As a matter of fact, they were the best months in last 5 years since I got sick. In hind-sight, I wonder if the IVIG played a role in that.

At the end of February, I crashed hard. We aren't sure of root-cause. During the month of February we tried:
  1. Stopped 6.25 mg Zoloft
  2. Waited 3 weeks then tried propranolol 5 mg BID
  3. Never followed up with IVIG boosters due to my aseptic meningitis reaction from initial IVIG 4 course trial.
As a result of the crash, we did another Mayo Dysautonomia Panel 3 weeks ago:
  1. N-Type Calcium Channel Ab = 0.51 (Old was 0.10; Normal is < 0.03)
  2. Neuronal K+ Channel Ab = 0.03 (Old was 0.07; Normal is < 0.02)
Now I am perplexed. What do I do? Do I go after IVIG again? Aseptic Meningitis sucked. I'd hate to get that complication again.

@Gingergrrl @Nickster @Ema any thoughts or recommendations?
 
Last edited:

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@JasonUT

Just saw this and want to re-read further back in this thread to refresh my memory and will reply further tomorrow.

My immediate thought off the top of my head is that your N-type CA+ Channel antibody is extremely high at 0.51 and it has significantly increased (if I am reading the numbers correctly)!

If you are interested I will give you the info via PM (tomorrow) re: a private group on FB that I am in for people who have this autoantibody. My current level is 0.06 which is still testing positive b/c it’s above 0.03 (on Mayo DYS1 Panel).

I’ll know the answers once I re-read the thread but how long have you tested positive and have you been checked for SCLC (lung cancer) and LEMS?

Edited to Add:

It is now the next day and I was able to read back through the last few pages of this thread where you and I were discussing the CA+ Channel autoantibody, LEMS, POTS, and IVIG in great detail. Now I remember the conversation and I think we might've spoken via PM at that time (but am not certain)? I have a few more thoughts...

However, he did state that N-type calcium channel Ab can affect Acetylcholine function and is associated with POTS.

This was very interesting and I had totally forgotten reading it when we talked before. It strikes me b/c in the N-Type CA+ Channel group that I belong to on FB, almost every single last person in it also has POTS! They have been given every diagnosis under the sun from doctors who dismissed the antibody and labeled their case as psychosomatic, to ME/CFS, to Paraneoplastic syndromes with or without cancer, to LEMS, to Myasthenia Gravis, and endless others but literally almost every single person with this autoantibody also has POTS!

I did not know what to make of this but you are saying that your Neuro stated that this autoantibody is associated with POTS! I saw three Neuros in 2016 (including one who was a Dysautonomia Specialist at Stanford who is the doctor who discovered that I have this autoantibody and triple confirmed that I had severe POTS on a TTT) yet he said that there was absolutely no connection between the two :bang-head:

I started getting my first noticeable side effects after my 3rd infusion. Nurse suggested that maybe 90 grams is the required therapeutic dose for me. I'll have to talk to the doc to determine what kind of follow-up infusions I might need to maintain a sufficient therapeutic dose.

Now that I've re-read what you wrote, it definitely sounds like you benefitted and improved from IVIG (but sucks that you ended up with aseptic meningitis)! My feeling is that your infusion speed was WAY too fast (with your entire infusion being 3-hours vs. mine was approx 7-hours). Also, I tend to agree with the nurse that you mentioned that maybe 90 grams is the maximum dose that you tolerate (in a 3-day cycle). The max dose that I tolerated was 82 grams (also in a 3-day cycle). There was literally no possible way that I could have tolerated a 4th day and am certain I would have ended up with aseptic meningitis, too.

So my overall thoughts (and please check with your Neuro/doctor) is that you did benefit from the 3-day cycle but would do better w/a slower infusion speed. I also think it is even more important to see if you can try IVIG again b/c your calcium/LEMS autoantibody has really gone up!

Last question, has Rituximab been discussed in your case (in addition to IVIG) since you have a LEMS diagnosis from a Neuro?
 
Last edited:

JasonUT

Senior Member
Messages
303
Last question, has Rituximab been discussed in your case (in addition to IVIG) since you have a LEMS diagnosis from a Neuro?

My current Neuro is trying to refer me to Dr. Steven Vernino. It is my understanding that Dr. Vernino was involved in designing the Mayo DYS1 test. I am hoping that Dr. Vernino accepts the referral so I can see him. I am hoping this may open the door to new treatment ideas.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
My current Neuro is trying to refer me to Dr. Steven Vernino. It is my understanding that Dr. Vernino was involved in designing the Mayo DYS1 test. I am hoping that Dr. Vernino accepts the referral so I can see him. I am hoping this may open the door to new treatment ideas.

It was my dream to see Dr. Vernino a couple years ago and he is probably the top Autoimmune Dysautonomia specialist in the world with an incredible lab. But I was too sick to travel at the time and it just was not realistic with me in CA and him in Texas. I am so excited for you that you might get to see him and I think it will open the door to new treatments.
 

JasonUT

Senior Member
Messages
303
Resurrecting an old topic: B1 and Magnesium

Previously, I had several SpectraCell Micronutrient panels and it showed functional deficiency in B1 and B3.

Notes for myself:
  1. B1 and Magnesium are dependent. Link
  2. Interesting article on B1 and Mg. Link
  3. Lonsdale also seems to point this out. Link
  4. One of my old posts says that Lonsdale recommends at least 300 mg Magnesium when trying to replenish Thiamine stores. Link
  5. I recently started experimenting with Mg Glycinate again. I noticed that it is very calming almost like taking a sedation or calming drug. It feels like the same reaction I had when I started taking Lipothiamine.
  6. I just started experimenting with 100 mg 4x per day. I take 100 mg with each meal and 100 mg at bedtime. If I take a larger single dose I hit bowel tolerance very easily. In hindsight, maybe I should have never stopped taking Mg Glycinate.
  7. I am going to consider upping my Lipothiamine dose. I was at a maintenance dose of 50 mg BID, but recently crashed hard. I need to dig back through my old notes and try to figure out how to get myself back in action.
  8. Historically, I have had very inconsistent Vitamin D levels. Apparently, Vitamin D is linked to Mg. Link
  9. In typical fashion, I upped my Vitamin D from 3000 IU to 6000 IU in the winter months, but never adjusted my Mg levels. Perhaps this somehow contributed to all the other chaos and sent me into a crash.
  10. Dr. Carolyn Dean MD ND on Vitamin D debate. Link
 
Last edited: