First experience with L-Carnitine Fumarate

mgk

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Just started Alpha Lipoic Acid 600 mg in combination with Acetyl L-Carnitine 1,000 mg, knowing very little about this. I feel a little wired, irritable and tired but this could be for other reasons too.

Am I missing the boat here with this form of Carnitine? Why are you guys taking the Fumarate form instead of the acetyl-l form? I haven't read all of Fredd's material as I can't deal with the complexity in combination with my lack of memory and stamina. Also I am not interested in a very complicated treatment protocol due to the oppression of constant attendance to it and control. I am always looking, and willing to try, something simple.

If anyone can help me out with my question about the form of carnitine, I would be obliged!
I have wondered the same thing but haven't been able to find a good answer. What I can tell you is that I have tried ALCAR before and it doesn't have anywhere near the same effect as LCF.

I know that fumarate is an intermediate in the citric acid cycle, so maybe taking carnitine breaks a deadlock there which then pushes the bottleneck to fumarate synthesis. I suspect ALCAR (or any other L-Carnitine) + fumaric acid would have the same effect. That would be an interesting experiment, but as a practical matter, why bother when LCF has both in a convenient form?
 
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SwanRonson

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@Gondwanaland , @Sherpa , @whodathunkit The only thing I would mentioned in regards to RS is just to be careful if you have constipation problems. The lack of motility (impaired mmc) can cause the RS not to move fast enough and sit in the small bowel too long and cause SIBO. This mostly applies to the powdered forms like tapioca, plaintain and potato starch. For most people it's probably not a worry, but those of us with chronic constipation need to be very careful with prebiotics.
 

whodathunkit

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@Sing: acetyl-l-carnitine (ALC) crosses the blood-brain barrier. It helps facilitate the release of acetylcholine. It's supposed to be more of a mood and cognitive function enhancer.

LCF, on the other hand, does not cross the blood-brain barrier and acts on the mitochondria of all your cells...it's primary effect is not on the brain. It's supposed to help with cardiac health in particular (although not limited to that), by helping boost mitochondrial function. I've also read that it may help with the formation of new mitochondria but not entirely sure.

Alpha lipoic acid (ALA) is good with either, but it's supposed to work more synergistically with ALC. I know from personal experience that choline/acetylcholine helps lower blood sugar, and so does ALA. Using both together is definitely good for that.

I never got any benefit from ALC *until* I also started taking a form of thiamine that crosses the blood-brain barrier, and choline. Then it really seemed to help me. Then I started experiencing side effects from the whole "stack" of supps I was using for cognitive function, so I had to quit. I still seem to be fairly sensitive to ALC, though. So it does work, but I now think that people who don't experience benefit from it are lacking in key nutrients that work with it. But what those nutrients are probably differs from person to person.

LCF gave me an effect right away. As noted earlier in the thread, it's one of my very favorite supplements ever.
 
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Gondwanaland

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I would suggest washing the bananas with hot, soapy water first to get rid of fertilizer or pesticides. Then prepare as shown in this video, boil for 18 to 20 minutes. Easily peels. Keeps for a couple days in the fridge. The banans can be eaten cooled, or sliced and stir fried.
How do I clean the latex glue from my imported Visions cooking pot??? :aghhh:
 
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Johnmac

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LCF knocked my socks off (anxiety & a general crash that took days to recover from).

So Freddd has put me on the liquid carnitine, titrated from tiny initial doses. Even the tiny doses knock me round if I raise too fast - so I have to be careful.

The fumarate in the LCF fixed my psoriasis: I'm now waiting to see if straight carnitine does the same thing.

Be careful with alpha lipoic acid if you have dental amalgams (especially large doses like 600 mg): it will mobilise the mercury, which may cause you very bad symptoms.

If you want to remove mercury from your body with ALA, the optimal way seems to be the Cutler protocol of round-the-clock chelation.
 

aturtles

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I got anxiety after taking it haven't taken it since maybe will try again another time
TMG (Trimethilglycine) helped me with this and the attendant irritability (to put it mildly) with ALCAR. I didn't stay on LCF long enough to try it, but I understand from freddd and other sources that it works there, too.
 

Sherpa

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Took 1/8th capsule Doctors Best LCF today at 7:30 am. Felt alive and awesomely energized until about 1pm... was thinking "wow, wonderful!" - like this stuff was just the ticket to get my Krebs cycle humming along again. It was my first day with the AdCbl + MeCbl + L-5-MTHF + LCF "deadlock" combo was in place, and it did feel excellent.

Then about 1pm I started to feel like I was coming down off a drug: depressed, spacey, energy levels dropping. Nothing severe, just "blah" and disappointed.

I am considering trying ~1/16th a capsule (55mg of powder) 3 times a day. Or 1/8th twice a day.

How do you take your 1000mg @whodathunkit ?

All at once / split up / what time of day usually?
 

whodathunkit

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@Sherpa, great news about your good feeling!

But sorry about the let-down. However, I think that's kind of typical for starting out with LCF, so please don't get discouraged. I remember going through that a bit with the Deadlock and now in fact I'm kind of going through it with some other things. It's a never-ending story, for sure.

Anyway, it sounds like you're on the right track with experimenting with splitting dosages and timing to see what's going to suit you best. That's what I would do in your position.

I usually take my dose all at once in the morning these days. For a while when I was at 250mg/day I would split that between the early morning and around 1p. The only caveat I would have is don't take LFC too late in the day. It can contribute to insomnia. My personal cut-off was 1p. And if I missed the 1p cut-off I'd skip it until the next day. But my doses (even split doses) were a bit bigger than yours. You can experiment a little there with timing.

Interestingly, a couple days ago I came across the post of Freddd's where he told me about what he thought were the most useful dosages for LCF. Turns out that 500mg/day is probably about tops unless you're treating for COPD or something like that. So I'm cutting my dosage to that for a while. It will save on the $$$ for sure.

HTH. :)
 

Sherpa

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I took 60mg of Doctor's Best LCF Capsule powder in early AM and another 60mg at 12:30pm. Well, this stuff is awesome. :thumbsup: I am hoping and trusting that I will acclimatize to having the LCF resupplied and I won't have such a strong reaction to each dose. It won't provoke insomnia.

It feels GRRRRRREAT to feel alive again. :woot: I have been kind of like a walking zombie for at least 4 years, going through the motions of life but not being alive. I don't think I've ever had more than a fleeting moment or two in my life when I had enough B12, folate and carnitine all at the same time. Whoever wrote that song "Zippity dooh dah... zippity my oh my what a wonderful day!" surely had the deadlock quartet in place through diet and no nasty combinations of SNPs.

I feel VISUAL BRIGHTENING :nerd: Last night I went into the grocery store and I noticed the candy next to the checkout line looked AMAZING! :star::bow::cake::fire: They had a strip of LED lights to shine down on the snicker bars and M&Ms to make them look more appealing to shoppers - and boy, did they! I was in awe of the mellow pastels of the Mentos, the iridescence of the 3 Musketeers wrapper, and the rainbow of Skittles. I admired them so intensely I almost forget to check out.

I feel ENERGY. :balanced: The "ugggg... do I have to do that? I just don't feel like it" CFS voice in my is being swapped out by a more optimistic and capable worldview.

I feel POSITIVE. :lol: Things might, maybe, actually be FUN.. rather than a slog. It seems possible.

I want to be all dialed in and steadily in this state forever - except when its time to go to bed. At 10pm I want to be SLEEPY. :sleep: I want to LCF it in the evenings so I can go out and be a real boy who does stuff... but I am willing to invest a couple weeks into feeling it out, not pushing the limits.

I want to be "all dialied in" NOW, no more endless dose titrating experiments and trials... no more weighing out multiple custom gelcaps for each day... but I am VERY GRATEFUL and I will do what it takes to figure this stuff out.

Thank you @Freddd and the others who have figured out the importance of LCF and the finer points of how to use it.
 
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SwanRonson

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@Sherpa That's awesome. So glad for you!

Now the questions o_O :

What method are you using to titrate to find such a specific dose like 60mg? Are you using a scale?

How is it affecting your sleep?
 

Sherpa

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@SwanRonson

I use a suprisingly high-quality $22 milligram scale to weigh and gelcap supplements. When I get a new encapsulated supplement, I dump open one capsule full onto the scale and weigh it (~880mg of powder inside 1 Doctor's Best LCF) then I write the weight on top of the bottle cap in Sharpie for future reference. My first dose was 1/8th a capsule - or 110mg of powder. It was a bit strong, reckoned a needed a wee bit more than half as much... I went down to 60mg.. . bingo!

Last night I feel asleep easily but I awoke at 2:15 am. Up wide awake till at least 4:30 am. I am not sure if it was the LCF I took at 5pm or if it was blood sugar dip from eating too many carbs that night.

I am going to try and lay off of evening doses of LCF for a while just to be on the safe side.

I wonder if you are having issues with LCF due to MAO A or mitochondrial damage? I have both. I couldn't take any mitochondrial supplements for a long time.. no CoQ10, no L-carnitine, nothing... because I think my mitochondria were so beat up. And because MAO A was not functioning, causing feelings of overstimulation.
 
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SwanRonson

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Thanks for the link. Just ordered the scale. I've really struggled to titrate the powdered supplements.

Yes, I'm MAOA, MAOB and COMT homozygous. Not a fun ride for neurotransmitters. :-( Something is always out of balance it seems. Although, things have been much better on the sleep front since boosting Vitamin D. 6-8 hours per night (1/2 the time with no wakeups) is becoming pretty common for me, so that's good.
 

Sherpa

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I am now taking the LCF twice a day - 80mg of Doctor's Best powder around 6am and 1pm - the schedule recommended by @whodathunkit. Its working very good. I feel a bit direct and 'edgy' at work sometimes, have a less tolerance for being hassled or dealing with abusive customers. But nothing major. The positive effects far outweigh the edge and I'm sure I'll adjust. The 1pm dose gives me an energy boost that lasts into the evening and I am able to get to sleep OK. Had a decent gym workout yesterday and felt tired afterwards like a normal person feels after a workout - not some crippling crash.
 

Sherpa

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Had a decent gym workout yesterday and felt tired afterwards like a normal person feels after a workout - not some crippling crash.
I started to crash and get PEM about 3 hours after I wrote the above sentence. :( A bunch of dramatic screaming at my work set me over the edge - on Friday, my most vulnerable day at the end of the workweek.

It was not severe, but it was a depressing weekend on the couch. I am learning to be careful with the LCF because it makes me "feel" normal and I think I can do a lot more than I can. My instinct is to do more activites I've been missing out on, wanting to get my health and fitness back - ASAP. So I am going to try and enjoy FEELING more energized and capable, without necessarily DOING much more.
 
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Johnmac

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@Sing - assuming you are still taking alpha lipoic acid:

Remember that you are on the most powerful chelator of mercury and arsenic; which crosses the BBB; which most people who chelate use round the clock because of its famously diabolical redistribution effects when used otherwise; that you are on a much higher dose than just about any of the thousands of people using the Cutler protocol - many of whom crash and burn on a fraction of your dose; and that feeling "wired, irritable and tired" are pretty typical of such redistribution effects.

I'm not saying I know what's going on with you. I don't: you might be fine with ALA. I'm just giving you the history of ALA, in case you think it fits with the responses you are having.
 

Johnmac

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I actually followed Fred's tip and took L-Carnitine in liquid form, diluting 1 drop in 30 drops of water and taking one drop of that per day and titrating up by increasing about 20% each day, staying at a dose until stable, then increasing again.

Currently take about 1250mg a day.
I too took on Fred's liquid carnitine suggestion. I've found carnitine to be very agitating and anxiety-generating, so titrate up to 3 or 4 drops per dose, then drop back again to calm down. That's happened several times.

After 6 weeks, I am up to .6 of one milligram per day.
 

Sherpa

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@Johnmac wow dude, thats slow and low. I was quite sensitive and got overstimulated by many supplements until I did some lipid replacement therapy (mito membranes were to damaged to be accelerated) and treated my MAO A mutation with riboflavin.
 

Johnmac

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Yep it is low & slow alright. I learned the hard way. I reckon LCF could push you over the brink if you were sensitive enough.

I have MAO A R297R. (How) might the riboflavin help me IYO?

And what's the lipid replacement?