Feeling crook on paleo diet

[justy]

With all due respect , there is no Veggie Paleo diet. Early humans were the greatest hunters in the 4 and a half billion years of Earth. They were not killing/hunting animals for sport. THEY ate the suckers, all that we could find. A veggie paleo diet is an OXYMORON.

I'm not sure where to begin with this, and am a bit wiped this morning. Obviously i'm not sdtupid enough to think that a veggie paleo diet really exists - its been invented by meat eaters after all. I was merely trying a paleo version that may help my health - it didn't - it made me more sick and my stomach was really screwed on it.

Early hunters were the greatest hunters in the earths history?
I tale issue with this statement. Greatest hunters? what about carnivorous dinosaurs? Killer whales? lions? raptors? birds of prey?

Humans are much more like bears, and there is enough evidence to support the claim that most early humans ate very little meat, mainly gathering berries, nuts, tubers, leaves, and eating insects, fish, shellfish and eggs.

Unlike a lion I am not capable of running after a large (or small) animal, catching it with my bare hands and ripping it apart and eating it raw. Humans only became capable of this when they developed tools and fire to cook with.

Mnay hunter gatherer societies left on the planet today eat small amounts of meat with a mainly foraged diet of what I listed above. The inuit are of course different, as are the Masai of Kenya, but research has shown them to have different genes to most other populations, which have eveolved over the years, their bosdies can handle such a restrictive diet. Also it has been shown, since the famous work by the doctor on the innuit diet (sorry cant remember names and dates) that the Innuit traditionally live a shorter life span than we are prepared to accept as feasible.

I believe that there are many different diets that suit many different types of people. A vegetarian diet is not in itself unhealthy - 470 million Indians have lived on it for many many generations. In Nepal and the Himalayas the basic diet is Dhal and Rice or Dhal and unleavened bread - on this diet the Sherpas climbed Mount Everest without Oxygen!

All the best,
Justy.

 

[MeSci]

Unlike a lion I am not capable of running after a large (or small) animal, catching it with my bare hands and ripping it apart and eating it raw. Humans only became capable of this when they developed tools and fire to cook with.

I think they ate raw meat before that.

 

[Ripley]

Humans are much more like bears, and there is enough evidence to support the claim that most early humans ate very little meat, mainly gathering berries, nuts, tubers, leaves, and eating insects, fish, shellfish and eggs.

True. However, the it's very clear that early homo was an omnivore, not an herbivore or a fruitarian. Even our own tiny caecums and omnivorous jaws are a clear indicator of this. No one is suggesting high meat consumption.

Unlike a lion I am not capable of running after a large (or small) animal, catching it with my bare hands and ripping it apart and eating it raw.

True, but early humans were believed to be scavengers. One hypothesis is that they would scare away animals from the carcasses they had just killed and consume the scraps and marrow in the bones.

Humans only became capable of this when they developed tools and fire to cook with.

Again, true. But, even homo erectus had the tools to do this.

It is known, from the study of microwear on handaxes, that meat formed a major part of the [homo] erectus diet. Meat is perfectly digestible without cooking, and is sometimes eaten raw by modern humans.

Humans are much more like bears

Well, there are carnivorous bears (e.g. polar bears) and there are omnivorous bears (e.g. black bears). Both eat meat opportunistically and both have the digestive acids to easily break down meat.

Mnay hunter gatherer societies left on the planet today eat small amounts of meat with a mainly foraged diet of what I listed above.

True. But virtually none of them avoid meat altogether.

The inuit are of course different, as are the Masai of Kenya, but research has shown them to have different genes to most other populations, which have eveolved over the years, their bosdies can handle such a restrictive diet.

I'm not aware of a "meat" gene. I believe the genes you are referring in the Inuit have to do with increased Vitamin D metabolism. Again, no one here is suggesting high meat consumption or an all-meat diet.

Also it has been shown, since the famous work by the doctor on the innuit diet (sorry cant remember names and dates) that the Innuit traditionally live a shorter life span than we are prepared to accept as feasible.

Again, no one is advocating an Inuit diet.

A vegetarian diet is not in itself unhealthy - 470 million Indians have lived on it for many many generations.

True, however that typically was done for religious regions. Again, nobody is suggesting an all-meat diet. Just simply pointing out that there is an extremely long history of scavenging meat in the Paleolithic homo and pre-industrial cultures.

 

[MeSci]

Again, nobody is suggesting an all-meat diet. Just simply pointing out that there is an extremely long history of scavenging meat in the Paleolithic homo and pre-industrial cultures.

[/quote]

Road-kill, anyone?

 

[Ripley]

Road-kill, anyone?

I'm curious, but what kind of foods do non-meat eaters get their protein from? Leaving nutrient-density aside, perhaps the potential problem with vegetarianism isn't so much the avoidance of meat, but perhaps what foods are substituted for meat? Doesn't a vegetarian tend to consume a fair amount of egg/soy/legume protein? These sources of protein can be problematic for many, either due to plant/seed toxins (phytates, lectins, etc) or egg-protein allergens, no?

 

[MeSci]

I'm curious, but what kind of foods do non-meat eaters get their protein from? Leaving nutrient-density aside, perhaps the potential problem with vegetarianism isn't so much the avoidance of meat, but perhaps what foods are substituted for meat? Doesn't a vegetarian tend to consume a fair amount of egg/soy/legume protein? These sources of protein can be problematic for many, either due to plant/seed toxins (phytates, lectins, etc) or egg-protein allergens, no?

High-protein isn't necessarily a good thing. Phytates tend to be killed by cooking, I think. Here is an article about cooking reducing antinutrients in wild yam.

Nuts have good amounts of protein, as do seeds. I seem to be fine with legumes although I know that a classic Palaeo diet excludes them.

I eat what appears to suit me rather than follow a strict regime prescribed by anyone else.

 

[Ripley]

High-protein isn't necessarily a good thing. Phytates tend to be killed by cooking, I think.

For the thousandth time. No one is suggesting high protein here (that's a straw man).

Phytates aren't well neutralized by cooking. Only partially. Fermentation and/or extended soaking does a better job. But phytates are just one of the many toxins found in those sources. Ricin is an example of a legume toxin. Soy is notoriously toxic (it was generally avoided until modern agriculture).

Nuts tend to be high in Omega-6 and allergenic. Most wild nuts are actually quite poisonous.

So, I'm sure you, personally, do really well with meat avoidance but the substitutes for meat protein seem to be rather undesirable for someone with gut issues.

 

[MeSci]

For the thousandth time. No one is suggesting high protein here (that's a straw man).

Phytates aren't well neutralized by cooking. Only partially. Fermentation and/or extended soaking does a better job. But phytates are just one of the many toxins found in those sources. Ricin is an example of a legume toxin. Soy is notoriously toxic (it was generally avoided until modern agriculture).

Nuts tend to be high in Omega-6 and allergenic. Most wild nuts are actually quite poisonous.

So, I'm sure you, personally, do really well with meat avoidance but the substitutes for meat protein seem to be rather undesirable for someone with gut issues.

I don't think of my food as substituting for meat. It's just food!

Maybe other methods are better than cooking for legumes. A lot of people sprout them.

Soy appears to have been in use for a very long time -

since the eleventh century B.C. or perhaps a bit earlier

according to this page.

I'm happy with my dietary choices, and there seems to be plenty of evidence that veggies and vegans tend to live long and relatively-healthy lives.

Not sure why you appear to be cross!

 

[justy]

Hi @Ripley - I wasn't advocating a vegetarian diet for anyone, I was just trying to balance the poster who seemed to think that early humans were all about getting as much meat down them as they could and where the best hunters on earth. I thought this view was a bit lopsided - i'm not arguing for or against ANY diet.

I said Bears because I was being flippant, I could have said chimps equally - they eat leaves, herbs, tubers, insects and some meat (mainlky scavenged as you suggest) I don't beliee nomadic peoples or early man ate NO meat.

40% of India may not eat for mainly religious reasons (although there are economics involved as well) but my point was that they have been doing so for a very very long time and without severe ill health effects.

Man is extremely adaptable to his environment and to available resources.

If people suffer from gut issues then of course they may need to seek a specific diet.

All the best,
Justy.

 

[Ripley]

Soy appears to have been in use for a very long time - according to this page.

Soy was mostly domesticated for crop rotation purposes, not consumption until fermentation was harnessed to neutralize the toxins. As Wikipedia points out in the first paragraph in the history of the soybean:

Soybeans were a crucial crop in East Asia long before written records began.[48] They remain a major crop in the United States, Brazil, Argentina, India, China, and Korea. Prior to fermented products such as soy sauce, tempeh, natto, and miso, soy was considered sacred for its beneficial effects in crop rotation.

Soy was used for crop rotation. It was too toxic to be consumed for food before fermentation. And few Westerners consume their soy in fermented forms these days (soy sauce, tempeh, natto, and miso).

I'm happy with my dietary choices, and there seems to be plenty of evidence that veggies and vegans tend to live long and relatively-healthy lives.

Interestingly the evidence that most vegetarians point to for longevity comes from the data set of a religious organization (Seventh Day Adventists) that tweaks its data to support its own biases. The science isn't really that solid when you dig into it.

Not sure why you appear to be cross!

Heh. I'm not cross. I just didn't understand why you said "high-protein isn't necessarily a good thing" when I've stressed over and over again that nobody here is suggesting high protein consumption.

If you guys don't want to eat meat, that's totally fine. I don't plan on convincing you to. But, it's worth at least considering that the foods that vegetarians often consume for nutrients can be quite harsh on the gut — which in and of itself has nothing to do with meat consumption (more like the absence of meat consumption).

 

[shah78]

If you reread my comment I say"early humans" were the greatest hunters to ever walk this earth. I did not say "early hominids" were the greatest hunters to ever walk the earth. These early hominids were two feet tall and had little brains in comparison. They were the scavengers. We the "HUMANS" , meaning larger size bodies and BRAINS ,were killing everyhting in sight that tasted good. We didn't outrun the prey, we didn't out fight the prey, we outthought the prey. Lions and killer whales didn't drive countless species to extinction, but we sure as hell did.

 

[MeSci]

Interestingly the evidence that most vegetarians point to for longevity comes from the data set of a religious organization (Seventh Day Adventists) that tweaks its data to support its own biases. The science isn't really that solid when you dig into it.

This review paper looks quite comprehensive.

Also did a quick search on plant omega-3 sources:

http://www.brendadavisrd.com/articles.php?id=10

I'm posting this partly for the benefit of other veggies and vegans, although you did seem to be asking!

BTW I think a high percentage of us (along with omnivores) take supplements.

Heh. I'm not cross. I just didn't understand why you said "high-protein isn't necessarily a good thing" when I've stressed over and over again that nobody here is suggesting high protein consumption.

I participate in a lot of threads, and there's no way I could remember everything that everyone says, especially as I suffer from ME, as do the vast majority of people here. I think we do pretty well considering that!

 

[justy]

Hi @Ripley, I think you will find that in the UK at least a lot of vegetarians and especially vegans DO eat fermented soy products such as miso, tempeh, and tofu. I find these foods are fine for my digestion.

I agree that for vegetarians/vegans who have gut issues that soy, quorn, and some legumes can be adding to problems. I find that I am fine with lentils of all types, most beans in moderation, I only eat fermented soy and don't eat quorn (its not real food)

Interestingly I found that it was increasing vegetable intake and cutting out carbs tht made my stomach pain a lot worse. I tired juicing too (with vegetables) and found I had excruciating pain from doing so (that made me pretty sad)

I understand entirely that a paleo diet doesn't necessarily equate with higher protein (although a lot of people seem to think it does) I was told by Dr Myhill to replace the carbs with fats rather than protein. Unfortunatley for me this change was too much for my gut, and clearly there is some complicating factor for me - could be food allergies. But until I can get proper food and gut testing it will be hard to know. I suspect eggs, as I was eating a lot of them.

Also I don't currently eat a low fat diet, but found that I actually gained weight every time ive tried stone age/paleo. My metabolism seems just shot to pieces. I only ever maintained a lower weight when I was less ill by lots of exercise and calorie restriction, neither of which I can do now.

Oh for a magic answer!

 

[Ripley]

I participate in a lot of threads, and there's no way I could remember everything that everyone says, especially as I suffer from ME, as do the vast majority of people here. I think we do pretty well considering that!

Yes, but there was need to for you to remember, since I said it 3 posts before that, right above, in this same thread and on this very page!

 

[Ripley]

This review paper looks quite comprehensive.

It does. Though, hardly surprising conclusions. If you read it, it finds deficiencies from meat-avoidance and contrasts vegetarianism to SAD diets and high protein/high meat diets — neither of which anyone here would advocate for. Nor does it adjust for a notorious 'healthy user' effect (vegetarians are more likely to smoke less, exercise more, etc).

Anyway, my point is that the science is pretty poor. By no means should that persuade you one way or the other though. Obviously eat whatever makes you most comfortable.

Also did a quick search on plant omega-3 sources:

http://www.brendadavisrd.com/articles.php?id=10

Good find. Though, it mostly just covers the conundrum of n-3/n-6 problems that are particularly challenging for vegetarians who don't eat enough fish.

Anyway, good convo.

 

[MeSci]

Yes, but there was need to for you to remember, since I said it 3 posts before that, right above, in this same thread and on this very page!

1. If I can't remember something, I can't remember it. I am not wilfully failing to remember.
2. Like a high percentage of others with ME I cannot even read some messages as my brain packs up.
3. I can see no mention of protein in that message you link to. You mention meat several times, but meat is not synonymous with protein.
4. Please make sure you read and remember every word of this message.

 

[Ripley]

Like a high percentage of others with ME I cannot even read some messages as my brain packs up.

My apologies. I wasn't aware that you weren't reading some of my messages or unable to remember them. Sorry about that.

Let me be clear. No one is advocating high levels of meat consumption, or protein, here.