Feeling crook on paleo diet

[aimossy]

well its another thing to look into and to take into account so thanks for information @Ripley

 

[justy]

@Ripley thanks for that information. My M.E doctor advised me to go with my gut feelings (no pun intended!) on how long to take the antibiotics for and what was right for me to do, and my gut feeling has always been that some starchy tubers are good for you. Native peoples from all around the world prepare and eat starches -mainly tubers. For me I cant really see myself ever leaving out ALL carbs (including heavier carb veggies) as recommended to me.

I know paleo/stone age diets are heavily promoted in the M.E/cfs world, but my view is that diet is only tinkering and that wht is needed is full and adequate testing to see what the problems really are - proper testing for SIBO, leaky gut, parasites, bacteria, food allergies, colonoscopy etc. As I said my Genova diagnpostics where not remarkable, and yet I have been given the standard, no carb, full on antibiotic regime, with no idea if this will help or futher wreck my gut.

My commiserations to everyone suffering with gut problems. I have to admit I had many years of M.E without gut ill health, but now it seems to go on and on.

Justy x

I have another thread on my gut issues here:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/genova-cdsa-results.21266/#post-324229

and here:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...es-my-gut-worse-pleae-help.26945/#post-411486

 

[MeSci]

The idea that our paleolithic ancestors ate a very low carbohydrate diet is nothing more than a hypothesis that Loren Cordain (the original author of the "Paleo Diet") came up with from his research years ago. His book was a huge step forward to starting the "Paleo" movement. But, since his popular book was published, a lot of new research has emerged and many other more recent "Paleo" authors have published their own versions of the "Paleo" diet and that research has evolved to a sort of Paleo 2.0 which includes starchy tubers: Chris Kresser, Paul Jaminet, Kurt Harris, Stephan Guyenet, Richard Nikoley and Mark Sisson now all recommend the inclusion of some "safe starches" (and even some properly prepared legumes) into their diets.

Paul Jaminet — author of The Perfect Health Diet followed the low carb Paleo diet — along with his wife, and saw a decline in their health over time. He and his wife — both trained scientists — discovered that there is a lot of evidence that our Paleolithic ancestors ate a moderate carb diet (~30% carbs). Starchy tubers likely played a significant role in providing the energy necessary to fuel our larger Primate brains. Jaminet also discovered that there is a lot of research that shows that low carb diets can be rather harmful to one's health over the long term. Blood sugar issues, thyroid issues, gut issues, fungal infections are all promoted by very low carb diets. See Jaminet's blog series on zero carb dangers:

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/category/zero-carb-dangers/

I agree that very-low-carb is a bad idea. I think that sometimes people use the term as a shorthand for 'low-grain/low-sugar'. I do have a small amount of gluten-free grain, and also some legumes. I don't think there's any doubt that Palaeolithic humans had carbs such as fruit and tubers.

 

[Fogbuster]

http://chriskresser.com/you-are-wha...ce-of-feeding-your-microbiome-with-jeff-leach

I definetely think you should read this. Explains that research is starting to show that low carb diets are not just starving the bad but also the good bacteria...

 

[Ripley]

@justy, you would do well to at least read the Perfect Health Diet. Paul Jaminet, the author, went on a journey that is very similar to yours. The PHD is a very balanced Paleo diet, and has a very good track record of solving a wide range of health issues. They even have a section in the book for those who don't eat meat for religious reasons. Chris Kresser (from the link that @Fogbuster just posted) also promotes the Perfect Health Diet to many of his patients and the book outlines how the diet can even be tweaked for those who wish to stay in ketosis.

Chris Kresser also has a book coming out at the end of the month, Your Personal Paleo Code, which I'm sure will be excellent and will likely be very similar to the Perfect Health Diet, but with more personal customizations — given how similar Kresser's recommendations are to the PHD.

Good luck to you!

 

[maddietod]

I don't think we need books to teach us how to naturalize our diets. It's pretty obvious what foods were not available to hunter-gatherers. I see paleo recipes full of cocoa and honey or coconut sugar.......sorry, no. Our ancestors were not refining and combining these foods.

For me the trick is to be very honest about the foundation of my diet: grass-fed meats, wild caught fish, seaweed, berries, and vegetables. This is not all that I eat. But it's my foundation. It's what I think of as the real food in my diet.

Transitioning to a diet that fully supports my health has been/is a very long process. Baby steps is working for me, where lists of approved foods and a desire for perfection......failed.

 

[Ripley]

I don't think we need books to teach us how to naturalize our diets. It's pretty obvious what foods were not available to hunter-gatherers.

It may be obvious what foods were available, but a book like Kresser's or Jaminet's can be extremely useful for determining the adequate carb levels to support your thyroid, brain, immune system, microbiota and every organ in your own body. And once you determine that level, you'd be shocked at how many potatoes you'd need to eat to hit a moderate level of just 30% of your calories from carbs. It's a lot.

The only problem with cutting out grains is that refined carbs are so carb rich you don't automatically realize how many natural complex carbs you actually need to consume in order to keep your carbs at a moderate level. This is why many Paleos accidentally end up going very low carb, without even realizing it — and that can be quite dangerous over the long term.

 

[Lynn]

I agree that very-low-carb is a bad idea. I think that sometimes people use the term as a shorthand for 'low-grain/low-sugar'. I do have a small amount of gluten-free grain, and also some legumes. I don't think there's any doubt that Palaeolithic humans had carbs such as fruit and tubers.

I started the Perfect Health Diet in August. My husband and I both love it. I had been on a low carb diet my entire life. i was neither skinny nor healthy. I eat more now than I have in my whole life. I have lost a much needed 10 pounds since starting and am never hungry. The amount of potatoes and rice that they recommend is a lot. I don't even have to measure because I could never eat it all.

I am doing the intermittent fasting which means eating within an eight hour window everyday. I am able to keep my eating to between 1 pm and 9 pm without getting hypoglycemic. I would never have thought I could do that before the diet.

This is the first diet that I have ever been on that is more like a lifestyle. Neither my husband nor I desire to eat any other way. We don't crave anything that is not in the diet.

I recommend the book as it looks like there is a lot of science behind the recommendations.

I cannot say anything about the health impact of the diet since I started taking high dose vitamin B-1 before I started the diet. But the combination of the B-1 and The Perfect Health Diet is allowing me to do more than I have in twenty years with this illness. I'm not cured but I have a better quality of life.

Lynn

 

[MeSci]

It may be obvious what foods were available, but a book can be extremely useful for determining the adequate carb levels to support your thyroid, brain, immune system and every other organ in your body. And once you determine that level, you'd be shocked at how many potatoes you'd need to eat to hit a moderate level of just 30% of your calories from carbs. It's a lot.

The only problem with cutting out grains is that refined carbs are so carb rich you don't realize how many natural complex carbs you actually need to consume in order to keep your carbs at a moderate level.

Pretty easy if you consume plenty of fruit, veg and nuts. You could do your own calculations using links from this page.

I certainly wouldn't want to get such a high proportion of my carbs from spuds.

 

[MeSci]

I started the Perfect Health Diet in August. My husband and I both love it. I had been on a low carb diet my entire life. i was neither skinny nor healthy. I eat more now than I have in my whole life. I have lost a much needed 10 pounds since starting and am never hungry. The amount of potatoes and rice that they recommend is a lot. I don't even have to measure because I could never eat it all.
Lynn

I too lost excess fat after going low-grain/low-sugar, although the weight loss started rapidly when I just cut out gluten initially. Now the fat has been replaced by muscle and I am more flexible than I have been for years as well as being an ideal weight (and I am 60!). Numerous symptoms have improved. But I never followed any specific book or diet; I just adapted my vegan diet to cut out certain foods and reduce others.

Yes - the lack of hunger is very welcome too. The weight loss was effortless as a result.

 

[Ripley]

Pretty easy if you consume plenty of fruit, veg and nuts. You could do your own calculations using links from this page.

http://cronometer.com is the easiest calculator I've found.

I certainly wouldn't want to get such a high proportion of my carbs from spuds.

And after reading the Perfect Health Diet, as well as Kresser's works, I wouldn't want to get such a high proportion of my carbs from fruits and nuts (high Omega-6 and excessive fructose). Those foods are best enjoyed in moderation. So, to each his/her own. Tubers are the most nutrient dense vegetables and an excellent source of carbs and fermentable fibers — which are crucial to any properly functioning gut. Ignore fermentable fibers at your own peril. It's no wonder that traditional cultures revered their tubers.

 

[MeSci]

And after reading the Perfect Health Diet, as well as Kresser's works, I wouldn't want to get such a high proportion of my carbs from fruits and nuts (high Omega-6 and excessive fructose). Those foods are best enjoyed in moderation. So, to each his/her own. Tubers are the most nutrient dense vegetables and an excellent source of carbs and fermentable fibers — which are crucial to any properly functioning gut. Ignore fermentable fibers at your own peril. It's no wonder that traditional cultures revered their tubers.

I ensure a balance of foods, and take a supplement for omega-3s. Thus leafy veg, root veg, spuds, nuts, seeds, legumes, some fruit, some gluten-free grain and plenty of coconut oil.

 

[Ripley]

I certainly wouldn't want to get such a high proportion of my carbs from spuds.

For what it's worth, Chris Voigt ate nothing but potatoes for 60 days straight — as many traditional cultures have done before him, over even longer periods — and his health improved dramatically. Watch the video here:

http://20potatoesaday.com

There appears to be something special about tubers — and recent evidence suggests that it has something to do with Resistant Starch (a prebiotic / fermentable fiber)

 

[maddietod]

I get arthritis from potatoes.......from all nightshades........so I promise not to try this diet.

 

[Ripley]

I get arthritis from potatoes.......from all nightshades........so I promise not to try this diet.

I can certainly respect that. Though, it's likely that there is an underlying cause to your arthritis that is merely exacerbated by nightshades (not necessarily caused by them). For instance, and this might help you...

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/05/an-osteoarthritis-recovery-story/

Removing the potato skins tends to help as well.

 

[anniekim]

I am doing a diet recommended by Dr Myhill to sort out an upper fermenting gut. She says absolutely NO carbs including no root vegetables (carrots etc) she even says no fruit and for some people no vegetable fibre!!!??? I didn't think my Genova stool test looked too bad - but she belives it points to a fermenting gut, also out are beans and lentils, which we veggies usually eat a lot of.

Yesterday had apple and almond and coconut oil 'porridge' then at lunch had vegetable soup with naughty root veg and squash and for dinner I had green curry -prawns and veggies in coconut and lime sauce - I also had some white basmati rice. I seemt o do better with a small amount of rice than a small amount of potatoes. I have woken up this morning feeling even more sick than yesterday - although the first few days I felt extra energy.

http://drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Stone_Age_Diet_-_this_is_a_diet_which_we_all_should_follow

The diet also excludes all dairy but allows soya kefir (which I make at home) maybe the feeling ill will pass?

All the best,
Justy.

I know this may sound a bit cheeky but I wonder whether Dr my hill diagnoses all her patients with fermenting gut. She did me when I did the Genova test and I am not sure why. I just can't seem to get along without any starch, even though I know Dr Myhill is against it. I read a book by Paul jaminet who advocates that most people do best with a bit of starch/natural sugar as our body does need a certain amount of glucose for certain functions in the body. He calls his diet recommendations a low to moderate carb diet and advocate approx 400 starch calories

Obviously this is just his theory but it's interesting and I like his recommendations as I can manage them so could be bias! I am just too hungry and weak with no starch. He argues that carbs from vegetables give you no significant glucose as your body uses up most of the energy from them by digesting them

Edit

Apologies, I should have read all the posts as I see others have mentioned pAul Jaminet too

 

[justy]

@anniekim you wrote my thoughts exactly re the diagnosis. I believe most of her diagnoses are based on her pre- existing theories, rather than individualised. However I do know some of her patients who have improved on her diets and restored gut function. Although strangely one patient of hers I know has also been diagnosed with SIBO, and I thought they had much worse gut problems than me, but they weren't advised to take long courses of very strong antibiotics.

I am going to get my diet back in order in the new year, but I think I will start back with cutting out all suagrs and gluten again, add in the Betaine HCL and see how that goes for a few months first. Despite greater stamina in recent months and a general improvement in symptoms (apart from gut which is worse) I still find I am extremely sensitive to all changes to diet, as well as many supplements and most medications.

All the best,
Justy.

 

[MeSci]

I read a book by Paul jaminet who advocates that most people do best with a bit of starch/natural sugar as our body does need a certain amount of glucose for certain functions in the body. He calls his diet recommendations a low to moderate carb diet and advocate approx 400 starch calories

Obviously this is just his theory but it's interesting and I like his recommendations as I can manage them so could be bias! I am just too hungry and weak with no starch. He argues that carbs from vegetables give you no significant glucose as your body uses up most of the energy from them by digesting them

Edit

Apologies, I should have read all the posts as I see others have mentioned pAul Jaminet too

We can make glucose from a wide range of foods, and can also regenerate it from the storage form called glycogen. We don't need sugar in our diet, although we have a taste for it as it is an instant form of energy and thus useful at times of food scarcity. We now have the opposite problem - a superabundance of food - in the modern world, hence overconsumption of these instant/rapid energy sources which we can't use quickly enough, hence the obesity, diabetes and vascular disease epidemics. People with ME are even less able than healthy people to use such energy sources quickly enough.

This seems a good source of info about glucose and nutrition.

 

[Ripley]

We can make glucose from a wide range of foods, and can also regenerate it from the storage form called glycogen. We don't need sugar in our diet, although we have a taste for it as it is an instant form of energy and thus useful at times of food scarcity. We now have the opposite problem - a superabundance of food - in the modern world, hence overconsumption of these instant/rapid energy sources which we can't use quickly enough, hence the obesity, diabetes and vascular disease epidemics. People with ME are even less able than healthy people to use such energy sources quickly enough.

This seems a good source of info about glucose and nutrition.

True, and yet very low carbers can have glucose deficiencies (often exhibited by decreased hyaluronan and mucin as well as reduced levels of T3 thyroid hormone). It's not easy for your body to produce the 100-150g of glucose necessary to operate your immune system and the peripheral (non-brain) organs in your body day after day, after day, after day. The effects of glucose deficiencies from not eating enough carbs are discussed here:

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/10/jimmy-moore’s-seminar-on-“safe-starches”-my-reply/

and here:

Dangers of Zero-Carb Diets, I: Can There Be a Carbohydrate Deficiency? >>
Dangers of Zero-Carb Diets, II: Mucus Deficiency and Gastrointestinal Cancers >>
Danger of Zero-Carb Diets III: Scurvy >>
Dangers of Zero-Carb Diets, IV: Kidney Stones >>

 

[maddietod]

I can certainly respect that. Though, it's likely that there is an underlying cause to your arthritis that is merely exacerbated by nightshades (not necessarily caused by them).

I don't have arthritis. I get arthritic symptoms, overnight, from eating nightshades, including all types of potatoes, with or without the skins.

Meanwhile.......I think there's agreement here that paleo does not equal low carb.

@justy "Despite greater stamina in recent months and a general improvement in symptoms (apart from gut which is worse)" Did this have anything to do with the dietary changes......if you can tell?