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Fecal transplantation

Messages
34
Hi there.


Anybody here tried Fecal transplantation? I see that they are starting a trial in Norway in August in ME/CFS patients. I have ALOT of gut issues and I am curious about trying. Would like to hear from some of you - if any
have tested this and what results did you have.

I have also had the dreading H.Pylori bacteria and ulcer in my stomach. The 3 week of antibiotics did havoc in my gut and my health has never been the same since.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,882
@AndrewR, you might like to search the forum. There are over 30 threads on the subject.

When Dr Kenny De Meirleir tried fecal transplant on a number of ME/CFS patients, he got short term benefits, but those benefits disappeared after a few months.

When Dr Thomas Borody tried fecal transplant on a number of ME/CFS patients, he claimed he was able to achieve permanent long term cures. However, I have not seen his results replicated.

Also, the Borody study implanted cultured gut bacteria (Bacteroidetes, Clostridia, and E. coli) into the colon, rather than a fecal microbiota transplant. So that's not quite the same as FMT.

However, at Borody's own clinic, the Centre for Digestive Diseases in Australia, he does not appear offer bacteriotherapy or FMT treatment for ME/CFS. According to the website, he treats ulcerative colitis and IBS with FMT, but not ME/CFS. So his study claims to have found an amazing cure for ME/CFS with IBS, but he is not offering this treatment at his clinic.
 
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Messages
34
Thanks Hip for clearing that up. Sorry, should have searched before hand, but when I generated the post only a few popped up and none specific about the users in here experiences with the treatment - wich I was hoping that someone did. We have a possibility to have this treatment here in Norway done at a private clinic aslong as you have a IBS diagnostics.

Will be interesting to see the outcome from the Norwegian trial in Harstad Universitets sykehus. Although it is a small study.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,882
Sorry, should have searched before hand, but when I generated the post only a few popped up and none specific about the users in here experiences with the treatment - wich I was hoping that someone did.

If you search for "Taymount" on this forum you'll find some experiences of patients who had a fecal transplant in this somewhat expensive UK clinic. I found three people who went to this clinic: here, here and here, but not much mention of a successful outcome.

I have read that success may depend on getting a transplant from a "superdonor". Superdonors are individuals whose fecal transplants have a history of successfully treating patients. They obviously possess some sort of microbiome ecology that is better than normal.



We have a possibility to have this treatment here in Norway done at a private clinic aslong as you have a IBS diagnostics.

The Borody study actually showed that it is only ME/CFS patients with comorbid IBS that benefit from fecal transplant, and did not work for ME/CFS patients without IBS.

Also, the Borody study implanted cultured gut bacteria (Bacteroidetes, Clostridia, and E. coli) into the colon, rather than a fecal microbiota transplant. So that's not quite the same as FMT.

But note that at Borody's own clinic, the Centre for Digestive Diseases in Australia, he does not appear offer bacteriotherapy or FMT treatment for ME/CFS. According to the website, he treats ulcerative colitis and IBS with FMT, but not ME/CFS. So his study claims to have found an amazing cure for ME/CFS with IBS, but he is not offering this treatment at his clinic.
 
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Runner5

Senior Member
Messages
323
Location
PNW
I increased my natural fiber to grow a healthy microbial army and boy is it ever working. This is probably the best I've felt. The first month I was just adapting and I had so-so results. Definitely no more constipation or IBS but this month my energy is coming back and it's very exciting. I don't have h.pylori though so *shrug* But anyway, here is kinda what I eat in a day....

breakfast: 2 bananas, soy milk (or an apple)
lunch: big green smoothie with at least 1 cup of blueberries, 3+ cups of greens
snack banana
snack a bunch of beets
snack a bunch of carrots with hummus
supper: huge salad with quinoa (and more veggies, purple cabbage, cucumber, maybe avocado etc.) with vinegar dressing
or beans with a little rice

I do tend to eat at least one serving of beans some time during the day. I started out taking digestive enzymes but really that's no longer necessary, everything is going pretty smoothly.

Different people have luck with different things though like Kefir, Kombucha, Activia Daily (yogurt)

So far though, this is definitely the best I've felt in a very long time. Fiber for the win. I've tried fiber supplements before and whole wheat - flat out didn't work for me though. Eating veggies and fruits seems to do the trick (for me at least.)
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,935
Location
Albuquerque
There was an article in the Daily Beast today on the microbiome with a short discussion of fecal transplants. A couple of interesting points jumped out at me like the huge change in the microbiome after colo-rectal surgery.
 

datadragon

Senior Member
Messages
401
Location
USA
Copper toxic individuals very often will also have gut concerns, including candida and yeast, low HCl, poor nutrient absorption, gluten sensitivity, even leaky gut. One of copper's roles is that of an anti-fungal, and when in balance, helps to control fungi and yeast / candida in the gut. However, with toxic levels of copper, much of this copper is in a bio-unavailable form stored in tissues, and is not serving it's role in controlling the candida / yeast, or other parasites. This, along with the anaerobic GI environment that's created, allows candida, fungi, yeast, parasites and bacteria to flourish. Meanwhile, copper toxicity (by way of lowering zinc) also reduces hydrochloric acid production. When hydrochloric acid (HCl) is low, the healthy gut flora are weakened (and zinc is lowered further - a vicious cycle). HCl helps kill off pathogens and is required for the absorption of nutrients such as calcium, iron, and various vitamins. Reduced digestive enzyme production occurs and the intestine becomes overly alkaline, giving a nice home to pathogenic bacteria. Copper toxicity leads to low HCl by way of slowing metabolism and reducing sodium and potassium levels, two minerals which are required in the production of HCl. The destruction of gut function and the collapse of one's metabolism are hallmarks of copper toxicity.

Long term copper (or stress) induced zinc deficiency will increase the permeability of the gut lining, contributing to leaky gut and food intolerances. "Research has shown that both metallothionein and zinc play powerful roles in preventing and restoring the damage in the gut barrier. Damage to the intestinal barrier can lead to serious conditions, such as leaky gut, colitis and Crohn's Disease.". We already know that copper lowers zinc, and zinc is important for metallothionein synthesis. For the vegan / vegetarian, they do require extra zinc supplementation. However, it alone may not be enough. This is because, when the body is under stress or suffering from adrenal weakness, the zinc level can drop further even when supplementing - allowing copper to accumulate further. A whole body / endocrine system approach is required to understand which supplements (and in what amounts) are optimal.

https://coppertoxic.com/diet-/digestion

I have elsewhere only tried to outline some of the progression that in my view anyone would go through to arrive in a low cortisol state that happens to be what ME/CFS are shown to be in the later stages of progression, and start to show how the issues with gut, depression/mood, immunity and other symptoms come from that which all are what ME/CFS happen to experience. As metal accumulation is involved when stress is there and mag/zinc go lower, that may be the reason why you are experiencing these issues. Any treatment is unique to the individual, I'm sure probiotics or fecal transplantation would help short term, but longer term likely would require a more complete program
 
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wonderoushope

Senior Member
Messages
247
I increased my natural fiber to grow a healthy microbial army and boy is it ever working.
So far though, this is definitely the best I've felt in a very long time. Fiber for the win. I've tried fiber supplements before and whole wheat - flat out didn't work for me though. Eating veggies and fruits seems to do the trick (for me at least.)

I would say this is what has worked best for me too. I have slacked off lately with vegetables and lentils. Dietician wants me eat at least 5 servings of vegetables a day, plus a cup of lentils. I noticed a difference since I slacked off.
Having said that, when I was eating "on point" my stool was all over the place, indicating my gut was still way out of whack.

My dietician also said to stick to low-GI foods throughout the day (for people with fatigue) which I also think makes a big difference.
 

LINE

Senior Member
Messages
844
Location
USA
A big factor in this would be what is the offending organism. The gut is subject to a number of potential pathogens, the most talked about is rogue bacteria or yeast. Viruses can inhabit the gut as well.

Parasites are overlooked, parasites can include the nematodes (worms), trematodes, cestodes and the protozoa family. FT would likely work in some rogue bacteria and perhaps some fungal/yeast situations but not likely in parasitic infections. The problem with parasites is testing competence. I was stricken down with protozoa and they can be quite nasty.
 
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datadragon

Senior Member
Messages
401
Location
USA
Can you provide any scientific references to support this statement, or are you presenting your own theories as if they were scientific fact?

Potential evidence:
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/mi/2009/729172/

Zinc by the way is very important for metallothionein synthesis. One of the roles of MT is to bind to copper for usage by the body or for removal and excretion. So without adequate zinc, MT synthesis is impaired, which can further allow metals such as copper and other toxins to build up.

https://metabolichealing.com/metall...issing-puzzle-piece-for-alzheimers-leaky-gut/

Magnesium, zinc, B1 and B6 are needed to make stomach acid. Also without enough zinc, a body lacks the ability to retain potassium. No matter how much potassium you eat it is not being retained. Adequate potassium is needed for hydrochloric acid secretion in the stomach.

These have some scientific info regarding copper:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4928837/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5512462/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24851950

Ceruloplasmin, a copper-containing plasma enzyme, catalyzes the oxidation of the ferrous ion to ferric ion, and thereby enables iron to be trapped by transferring (a protein transporting iron in the blood). It is then transported to tissues for the synthesis of iron-containing compounds, especially hemoglobin. If copper is not usable by not being attached to ceruloplasmin, then iron will also be effected.
 
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Daffodil

Senior Member
Messages
5,875
If you search for "Taymount" on this forum you'll find some experiences of patients who had a fecal transplant in this somewhat expensive UK clinic. I found three people who went to this clinic: here, here and here, but not much mention of a successful outcome.

I have read that success may depend on getting a transplant from a "superdonor". Superdonors are individuals whose fecal transplants have a history of successfully treating patients. They obviously possess some sort of microbiome ecology that is better than normal.





The Borody study actually showed that it is only ME/CFS patients with comorbid IBS that benefit from fecal transplant, and did not work for ME/CFS patients without IBS.
Rumor has it the Taymount Clinic is opening a new location in British Columbia, Canada.
 

perrier

Senior Member
Messages
1,254
Rumor has it the Taymount Clinic is opening a new location in British Columbia, Canada.
The Taymount clinic in the UK does not have a doctor on staff; when a problem arises, they just cast off a patient; this is very serious; if they come to Canada, I sure hope that a doctor will be on staff.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
I increased my natural fiber to grow a healthy microbial army and boy is it ever working
What evidence do you have that the composition of your microbiome improved? (I eat plenty of vegetables and have had no chsnges in my microbiome in 3 months, even though I feel better.)
 

Thinktank

Senior Member
Messages
1,640
Location
Europe
The Taymount clinic in the UK does not have a doctor on staff; when a problem arises, they just cast off a patient; this is very serious; if they come to Canada, I sure hope that a doctor will be on staff.

That's a serious problem. They're offering what basically is a medical service. What happens if someone develops sepsis from the transplant? Do they just boot out the patient or do they have a protocol in place?
 

perrier

Senior Member
Messages
1,254
That's a serious problem. They're offering what basically is a medical service. What happens if someone develops sepsis from the transplant? Do they just boot out the patient or do they have a protocol in place?
In our case, when a serious problem arose, they said go to the hospital. We lost thousands of dollars because the treatment could not continue, and they refused to refund. My deep impression is that this is cash cow for this husband and wife team, who are not doctors. I heard some people went and were happy; I don't think they were ME patients. After I complained excessively, they said a tiny part of the money could be credited to the treatment at at future time. But dealing with them turned us off so badly. There are now in the usa fecal transplant possibilities done by GI doctors, as it should be done.
 

Thinktank

Senior Member
Messages
1,640
Location
Europe
In our case, when a serious problem arose, they said go to the hospital. We lost thousands of dollars because the treatment could not continue, and they refused to refund. My deep impression is that this is cash cow for this husband and wife team, who are not doctors. I heard some people went and were happy; I don't think they were ME patients. After I complained excessively, they said a tiny part of the money could be credited to the treatment at at future time. But dealing with them turned us off so badly. There are now in the usa fecal transplant possibilities done by GI doctors, as it should be done.

Wow, i was thinking about going to that taymount clinic but now i have to reconsider.
If they have no medical staff onboard then there's no way i'm going there. faecal transplantation can cause serious complications, especially in patients with active Crohns, UC or another form of IBD.